Soapboxing?

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Here's evidence that the makers are liberal:
1. Dan Quayle is the lowest rank in leaders. Ok, Danny-boy wasn't great, but I can think of leaders lower than him: Jimmy Carter, for instance? How about Ross Perot?
2. Al Gore's picture on the internet. That's just plain blatant.
3. The fact the global warming is part of the game.
4. Having environmentalism as the highest civic in its category.

These are just the ones that come to mind.

- Sligo
 
AngryPants said:
I was about to give you guys a long post on how "conservativism" and "liberalism" in todays sense of those words are both branches of the classical liberal tradition, how european and american conservatives are very different, and so on. Then I read a couple of the posts on this thread and realized that I would have better luck explaining geometry to my guinea pig. So instead I suggest that some of the posters go amuse themselves by staring at shiny objects.

I actually am interested to here how that is true.
 
I think it's the highest because it's the most advanced but nm. Of course software programmers are liberals, they are electronic artists, all artisists are liberals do you know nothing?;)
 
sligo said:
2. Al Gore's picture on the internet. That's just plain blatant.
Then obviously you don't know much - the whole "Al Gore invented the Internet" thing was always meant to mock Gore. I just think it's funny they use it in the game, and don't see any real politics behind it.

Anyway, it's the height of ridiculousness to equate 18th century Liberalism with somekind of leftist propaganda. To quote the Civilopaedia:

"Liberalism is a political philosophy that states that a government's primary purpose is to protect its citizens' personal liberty and property."

Oh noes!! Teh Socialism!!!1one
 
AS one person pointed out above, and my old political science professor would have stressed:

Big L Liberalism and little l liberalism are completely different. The Liberalism they refer to in civ isn't really espoused by or associated with what we commonly refer to as "liberals". Big L Liberalism is not a political agenda or partisan way of thinking, it is in fact the opposite (as pointed out above).

Neither Democrats nor Republicans follow big L Liberalism, too bad!
 
sligo said:
Here's evidence that the makers are liberal:
...
4. Having environmentalism as the highest civic in its category.

Ironically, I have found Environmentalism to be an utterly-useless civic. It's so useless that it could actually be a subtle sort of reverse propaganda.... ;)

Truthfully, the politics of the game don't bother me any. Firaxis' offices are in Maryland, right? Well, that's a "blue" state, so the odds are that many Firaxians are somewhat left-leaning. But really, who cares?

FWIW, the classical meaning of Liberalism basically died out when the electorate realized they could vote themselves benefits out of the public purse. Elements of small-government thinking still exist among both major parties, but the primary emphasis is on doling out the pork.... :rolleyes:
 
Sidhe said:
I think it's the highest because it's the most advanced but nm. Of course software programmers are liberals, they are electronic artists, all artisists are liberals do you know nothing?;)

Huh? Artists, maybe. Every programmer I've met, with one exception, is conservative. (The one who claims to be liberal is really a conservative at heart, I just think he likes to say it to get everyone's goat).

As for the Al Gore thing - I know it's mocking. However, his image in the game is the only one representing someone who is actually still alive (that I know of, that is). I think his image being there, despite the joke, is still a subtle plug for modern liberalism.

- Sligo
 
That statement was meant ot be ironic but yeah I agree having Al gore in the game was advocating liberals I agree? OK:crazyeye:
 
Since you can no longer plant forests and chopping is such a big part of the game, Environmentalism isn't any good no matter how late in the game you get it. And why should you get it in the Middle Ages?
 
Sidhe said:
I'm a liberal conservative with a smattering of anti capatalist sentiment/cynacism in certain areas and a healthy regard for law and order. What does that make me? Probably no different from the majority I would imagine?


Possibly a closet Libertarian.
 
sligo said:
Here's evidence that the makers are liberal:
1. Dan Quayle is the lowest rank in leaders. Ok, Danny-boy wasn't great, but I can think of leaders lower than him: Jimmy Carter, for instance? How about Ross Perot?
Jimmy Carter did his job well, even though you wouldn't look at him and think "DAMN, HE IS ZE MANLY MAN!" or anything. (He was afraid of a rabbit...)

How about a non modern leader? That way, no fights between Liberals or Conservatives. More like historian fights. (More interesting and have higher IQ)
 
sligo said:
Huh? Artists, maybe. Every programmer I've met, with one exception, is conservative. (The one who claims to be liberal is really a conservative at heart, I just think he likes to say it to get everyone's goat).

As for the Al Gore thing - I know it's mocking. However, his image in the game is the only one representing someone who is actually still alive (that I know of, that is). I think his image being there, despite the joke, is still a subtle plug for modern liberalism.

- Sligo
Al Gore's image on The Internet is a plug for liberals in exactly the same way that Dan Quayle's name on the scoreboard is a plug for conservatives.
 
DaviddesJ said:
What are you talking about? Neville Chamberlain was a conservative. He was the head of the Conservative Party. And his policies of appeasement were an extension of the policies of Splendid Isolation of the British Conservatives (esp. Disraeli) of the 19th century.

Funny how the one direct answer to his question was duly ignored. Shows you right away his lack of knowledge on the subject matter; the one specific person he uses to show how "liberals" supported Hitler turns out to be a (pretty well known, I thought) conservative.

From wikipedia.org:
Neville Chamberlain
Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
Periods in Office: 28 May 1937 – 10 May 1940
Predecessor(s): Stanley Baldwin
Successor(s): Winston Churchill
Date of Birth: 18 March 1869
Date of Death: 9 November 1940
Place of Birth: Edgbaston, Birmingham
Place of Death: Highfield Park, Reading, Berkshire
Political Party: Conservative


I can really go on and on about the "conservatives" that praised/sympatheized/collaborated with Nazism and Fascism. From the Christian Church in Germany who supported Hitler, from Winston Churchill who actually had a positive review of Mein Kampf and still was hoping to sway Mussolini over to his side right up to WWII, Charles Lindbergh, Howard Hughes, let's not forget the big corporations who LOVED working with good ol' Adolf: Henry Ford, Gustav Krupp, Sosthenes Behn, Alfried Krupp, Fritz Thyssen and Emile Kirdorf..etc etc etc And let's not forget, WHO appointed Hitler as Chancellor of Germany? Hindenberg, a conservative ex-military general.

Republican President Herbert Hoover even went so far as to make a speech in 1940 announcing that Hitler's victory was not in doubt and what America really needed was "a man that Hitler could do business with and who had never alienated him." Aww, how touching! (You can find this in wikipedia, under Herbert Hoover)

Hitler went after Socialists, Communists and Social Democrats first and foremost. The fact that many socialists happened also to be Jews (Marx, Trotsky, Rosa Luxembourg, etc) did not escape Hitler and was a huge part of his anti-semitism. The Left were the first victims of Hiter's concentration camps.

Lastly, the politics of Adolf Hitler are generally associated far more with the right wing than the left wing, thus it would make "conservatives", fascists, monarchists, etc much more closer to his point of view than the Left would.

To sum up Hitler's politics:

Individualism over collectivism.
Racism or racial segregation over racial tolerance.
Eugenics over freedom of reproduction.
Merit over equality.
Competition over cooperation.
Power politics and militarism over pacifism.
One-person rule or self-rule over democracy.
Capitalism over Marxism.
Realism over idealism.
Nationalism over internationalism.
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
Common sense over theory or science.
Pragmatism over principle.
Religion over secularism.

You can get the full descriptions of each here

Allan Bullock, probably the world's greatest Hitler historian, describes Hitler's political method in his excellent biography:

"While Hitler's attitude towards liberalism was one of contempt, towards Marxism he showed an implacable hostility… Ignoring the profound differences between Communism and Social Democracy in practice and the bitter hostility between the rival working class parties, he saw in their common ideology the embodiment of all that he detested -- mass democracy and a leveling egalitarianism as opposed to the authoritarian state and the rule of an elite; equality and friendship among peoples as opposed to racial inequality and the domination of the strong; class solidarity versus national unity; internationalism versus nationalism." (33)

Sorry for the long-windedness, but I too often encounter these "Hitler was a lefty!" "liberals supported Hitler!!" "Hitler was a socialist!!" et al threads that have no basis in fact. I hope this has cleared a few things up.
 
SlipperyJim said:
Ironically, I have found Environmentalism to be an utterly-useless civic. It's so useless that it could actually be a subtle sort of reverse propaganda.... ;)

Interesting point. I'm not big on conspiracy theories and suspect environmentalism just didn't get game-balanced as well as the other civics but how cleverly malicious would that be if it was actually true?

I say this as a highest form of compliment - You sir, have a devious mind. :goodjob:
 
sligo said:
Here's evidence that the makers are liberal:
1. Dan Quayle is the lowest rank in leaders. Ok, Danny-boy wasn't great, but I can think of leaders lower than him: Jimmy Carter, for instance? How about Ross Perot?

The highest approval rating Dan Quayle ever achieved while office was 50%. The highest. Carter's was 70% when he entered office, and plummeted as energy prices went up and he was unable to wring miracles from rock. Since Carter left office he's been active both in international affairs and grassroots assistance of the needy (Habitat for Humanity). Since leaving office Quayle has been publicly active primarily in... well, political fund-raising.

Perot? What elected office did he hold? Business leader, maybe, if you like his despotic approach to business. Political leader? Complete flop.

2. Al Gore's picture on the internet. That's just plain blatant.

As noted by other respondents, you've missed the fact that this is a joke, a dig, a jest, a jape, at Mr. Gore's expense. :-D

3. The fact the global warming is part of the game.

And is it also a commie socialist liberal plot that global warming is part of the real world? =9_9= It's happening. Deal.

4. Having environmentalism as the highest civic in its category.

What would you prefer to have there in its place? Unbridled deregulation and total corporate industrialization? Are you willing to accept the consequences?

It would be a mistake to think that all conservatives are scornful of environmentalism. The closer one is to the natural world, the more likely one will understand the importance of wise stewardship of our planet -- not just for "touchy-feely" reasons the right loves to attribute to liberals (with implied insult and dismissal of all things not hard and emotionless), but also to perpetuate their ability to extract profit from sensibly managed industry.

These are just the ones that come to mind.

Good you didn't list the ones that didn't. :-) Here's one you missed:

4. The wide variety of units representing ACLU members, tree-huggers, war protestors, bohemian artistes, Grateful Dead fans, Planned Parenthood supporters, ivory-tower elitists who want to tell everyone how to live their lives, godless atheists, and college students -- while only four military units are available, and they're equipped only with pillows on the ends of sticks, making it impossible to fight a real war.

Seriously, I think you're suffering from selective vision. The things that agree with your mindset you pass over. The few bits you find distatestful stand out. On the whole, the Civ series strike me as good, balanced games that everyone can enjoy.

Here's a little thought exercise. Pretend you're a liberal -- it's okay, I won't tell anyone! -- and see how many features you can find that make you think Civ has a strong conservative bias. Betcha if you do this (for real) you'll be surprised.
 
BeefontheBone said:
Well, propagating that riduculous myth about Al Gore claiming to have invented the Internet (what he ACTUALLY said was entirely accurate) is hardly a very mincing, sensitive lefty thing to do is it?
Besides, you get the makers' politics in TV shows, movies, books and every other medium - why not games? Soldier of Fortune and C&C Generals, for a start, are very conservative games.

Here is what he actually said:

GORE: Well, I will be offering - I'll be offering my vision when my campaign begins. And it will be comprehensive and sweeping. And I hope that it will be compelling enough to draw people toward it. I feel that it will be.
But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.

Don't allude to what he said, why don't you just use the quote?
 
The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

The Ben Franklin quote is ridiculous on its face. Try going without an army or a police force, without laws of any sort, and see how far you get.

Too many quotes are ripped out of context, oversimplified, and twisted. With a little spin, they can be used to support almost any point of view. The holy scriptures of various faiths offer countless examples across the ages. Laws, like game rules, come with loopholes, and the more complicated the rules, the more numerous and more devastating the exploits.

There's an underlying truth to Franklin's quote, though, and that is that it is immensely more costly and more difficult to loosen the reins that bind us than it is to tighten them. Anybody who fails to grasp, in full measure, the essential truth of this core principle has failed as a student of American history. With that in mind, one should be (indeed MUST be) cautious in all decisions to be made about the writing of new law.

Unfortunately, the people who most often wave Ben's quote around in peoples' noses like a flag of rebuke against anybody who holds security concerns are missing the point on a colossal scale.

ALL LAW aims to trade liberty for security. Yet a nation that started out with legislators trekking to the capital a few weeks out of each year now has full time legislators backed by large staffs and a bloated budget fueled by our grand economy, piling the complications on us so thickly we can hardly breathe!

I sometimes wonder if hypocrisy is the biggest industry in America. Then I look around the rest of the world and realize that there aren't any greener pastures out there, either. ... It's human nature to know only as much as you have been able to gather in your lifetime, and for all of us, that will forever be a paltry pittance compared to what there is that could be known. A little forgiveness can go a long way. :)


The Franklin quote is best expressed through action.

When the same folks who cry about tax laws and gun laws want to impose abortion laws and concoct industrial subsidies to benefit their development buddies, and the same folks who cry about defense budgets and labor rights want to build massive bureaucracies and confiscate private property for use by their development buddies -- and both sides are convinced that the other is the sworn enemy of the American way -- you know that you have crossed over in to the Twilight Zone. :crazyeye:

The US Consitition is a sleek and simple document. Yet we require a three-tiered Federal Court system to apply it to the rest of our body of law, to protect and preserve it, to keep it alive. The sad fact is that rights clash. One person's right to smoke clashes with another's right not to inhale poisons. One person's right to speak freely clashes with another's right not to be sexually harassed at work. One person's right to own a house and be the sole determinant of what takes place on their property clashes with the rights of other homeowners not to be awakened at 3AM by a loud party. Thus we need judges to apply our principles case by case and determine whose rights trump whose rights -- to judge, to rule, to make the tough calls. Even simple and clear rules have some exceptions. Then we write more laws, trying to cover the special cases, piling on more and more rules, selling off more and more freedoms.


Trade a little liberty for a little security? Are you kidding me?!? :eek: We as a nation have done NOTHING ELSE for two hundred years on end! :gripe: Who is going to pull up Ben's quote and wave it around as if it holds any support for their modern day political leanings? ... Give me a break. :lol:

Because guess what? Too little law constricts and destroys freedom! Fail to contain the criminal element and nobody can maintain a business. The liberty to operate a business depends on a reasonable degree of security for that business. Security and Liberty are cross-hatched principles. They rely upon one another, arise from one another, build upon each other.

For all our piled up laws, requiring lawyers en masse to wade through even simple legal matters, on the whole we are making progress. The right laws increase both liberty and security, but it is a balancing act. Tilt too far in either direction and the costs outweigh the benefits.

In the end, there are no simple answers. Platitudes like Ben's quote are the beginning of wisdom, not its end. Everything worth obtaining, including an improved synergy between liberty and security, requires commitment, careful thought, and balance.


What I just wrote is a political statement.

Civ4 is not a political statement. It's a game. The two things are very different. ... OK? :)


- Sirian
 
This entire conversation is making me laugh. Figures that the initial commentary about an apparant bias within the context of the game is devolving. We're only a few posts away from a liberal vs conservative flame war (note to mods - now would be a good time to lock the thread!).

There is no question that I am a conservative, and when I point out what appears to be liberal leanings in the game doesn't mean I'm ignoring some conservative leanings in the game as well. True - the Al Gore plug is just as much liberal as the Dan Quayle plug is conservative. I would have preferred that no names of people currently alive would have been used in the game as well. (i.e. Did either Dan Quayle or Al Gore give permission?)

Doesn't mean this discussion wouldn't happen, nor would it keep this discussion from devolving as it is.

- Sligo
 
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