Soapboxing?

[Reignking]

VP's have approval ratings? What are people approving? They don't do anything!

Anyway, it seems most of you are smart enough not to even care about Dan Quayle, Al Gore, etc being in the game, or looking to find a deeper meaning.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

I sometimes wonder if hypocrisy is the biggest industry in America. Then I look around the rest of the world and realize that there aren't any greener pastures out there, either. ... It's human nature to know only as much as you have been able to gather in your lifetime, and for all of us, that will forever be a paltry pittance compared to what there is that could be known. A little forgiveness can go a long way.

In the end, there are no simple answers. Platitudes like Ben's quote are the beginning of wisdom, not its end. Everything worth obtaining, including an improved synergy between liberty and security, requires commitment, careful thought, and balance.

What I just wrote is a political statement.

Civ4 is not a political statement. It's a game. The two things are very different. ... OK?


- Sirian

@ Sirian - I am in awe of the wisdom of your statements.


Sorry to summerize your post, but your three points above are so amazingly correct I couldn't help but to repeat them for emphasis.


Let me know where I can contribute to your Presidential campaign.

 

[Dairuka]

Sirian is the only voice of reason in this cluster of immature opinions bred by a clear case of bias and a lack of information from both sides.

This is not a political debate, but a contest over who knows more about what.

This kind of thread doesn't belong on the General Discussions forum.

 

[Sirian]

Let me know where I can contribute to your Presidential campaign.

I'm far too unconciliatory ever to hope to be President. My talents are better spent in other directions.

The fact that American Politics today is about not standing for much of anything, lest you tick off too many special interests, is just something we have to live with, until our culture outgrows this weakness. (I have faith that this will happen eventually. We -are- moving forward as a people!)

Blaming the politicians doesn't help. They bend to the electorate in the ways that we demand of them, collectively.

Blaming the electorate doesn't help, either. It's a freaking miracle that we aren't living under dictatorship, so I'm content with that. Our government is slow, unresponsive, bloated, and cumbersome, but it's the one produced by our Constitution, and since I'm not ready to toss out that old scrap of paper in favor of some idiot's pet theory of the day, I'll live with it.

My second-favorite quote in Civ4 tech quotes is the one attached to Democracy. I suggested that one, and (on average) I find more wisdom in it than the Franklin quote, but YMMV.


Woops! Now we're straying back toward the notion that political speech exists in Civ4. ... This is me, shutting up now.


- Sirian

 

[Crighton]

Couple of points:

Liberal vs. Conservative bias:
I don't exactly read through the descriptions of the Civ's so I'm not going to comment on that, the point I will make though is that the UN (which is typically considered a hallmark of liberals) is way over valued in CIV IV.

Non proliferation treay my arse. It'd be nice if you could choose to join the UN when it's built (and thus be obliged to abide by it) and two: to be able covertly circumvent it when you are in it (oh I'll build my manhattan project there buddy).

Fascism:
I do miss being able to have a Fascist government. Very well suited to the warmonger in all of us.

Al Gore:

I took the initiative in creating the Internet

Yeah, to me that translates close enough to: "I created the internet." For the record, I voted for Gore in 2000. And was glad he lost after he turned into such a whiner in the years since.

Frankly, I'd have left both him and Dan Quayle of the game, especially since neither has made any monumental contribution to civilaztion in general.

Global Warming:

global warming is part of the real world? =9_9= It's happening. Deal.

That's debatable. The Earth may very well be warming right now, but there isn't much evidence to suggest that it's warming because of humans. Even if it's warming, and even if it's caused by humans, so what?

Why is global warming supposed to be a bad thing anyway? I'm tired of freezing my ass off. It's why I and a great many others are moving away from the north towards the sun belt states, in anticipation of the next ice age, which is probably right around the corner too.

Anyway, my impression of global warming in CIV IV is that it's an utterly useless contrivance. I've never had more than a couple of tiles change in any single game. If they want to make it a real factor in the game have it raise the sea level by one tile, thus flooding the coasline (THAT would be interesting).

~Crighton

 

[DaviddesJ]

Why is global warming supposed to be a bad thing anyway? I'm tired of freezing my ass off. It's why I and a great many others are moving away from the north towards the sun belt states, in anticipation of the next ice age, which is probably right around the corner too.

One easy-to-understand reason to care is that if the ice caps melt, and the world's oceans rise 20 feet, there will be trillions of dollars in relocation costs as major coastal cities around the world are submerged.

Another reason is that world agriculture is adapted to the climate that presently exists. If some places become drier, and others wetter, there will be huge suffering. Of course, most of this is likely to occur in third-world countries that are struggling to feed their population, so maybe you don't care.

 

[b-dubb]

Hmm... Florida submerged and lost...

*shrugs*

 

[Meffy]

The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

True in this specific case, useful as a general rule of thumb too. :-D

 

[Dairuka]

I do miss being able to have a Fascist government. Very well suited to the warmonger in all of us.

When you discover Fascism, you have the option to choose a form of Government known as, "Police State."

It is indeed very useful to Warmongers, as it gives you a -25% Unit Production cost, and a -50% to War Weariness.

 

[Chieftess]

I don't care if you are sensitive or not, but any shot at conservatives and their fundamentalist, oppressive, short-sighted, and self-serving philosophies is a plus in my book. If you are crying about something in Civ4 you need a break, go watch Fox news or something.

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Goblin Fanatic]

I'm a liberal(US people call it like that) and was under impression that no, Civ has a slightly conservative, though not neo-con bent. First off the ecological aspect is laughable. Second, looking trough the techs you have liberalism leading to *drumroll* communism. Oh my. And the 'Gore internet' thing is mocking for sure, he made a huge slip-up there. There's also the description of 'freedom of religion' civic about civilizations 'giving up to decadence'... Wow, call the liberal conspiracy, it's sheer conservative propaganda. Surely the fact that war elephants are so damn useful is also part of it? I mean, why not war donkeys?

 

[meisen]

Funny how the one direct answer to his question was duly ignored. Shows you right away his lack of knowledge on the subject matter; the one specific person he uses to show how "liberals" supported Hitler turns out to be a (pretty well known, I thought) conservative.

From wikipedia.org:



I can really go on and on about the "conservatives" that praised/sympatheized/collaborated with Nazism and Fascism. From the Christian Church in Germany who supported Hitler, from Winston Churchill who actually had a positive review of Mein Kampf and still was hoping to sway Mussolini over to his side right up to WWII, Charles Lindbergh, Howard Hughes, let's not forget the big corporations who LOVED working with good ol' Adolf: Henry Ford, Gustav Krupp, Sosthenes Behn, Alfried Krupp, Fritz Thyssen and Emile Kirdorf..etc etc etc And let's not forget, WHO appointed Hitler as Chancellor of Germany? Hindenberg, a conservative ex-military general.

Republican President Herbert Hoover even went so far as to make a speech in 1940 announcing that Hitler's victory was not in doubt and what America really needed was "a man that Hitler could do business with and who had never alienated him." Aww, how touching! (You can find this in wikipedia, under Herbert Hoover)

Hitler went after Socialists, Communists and Social Democrats first and foremost. The fact that many socialists happened also to be Jews (Marx, Trotsky, Rosa Luxembourg, etc) did not escape Hitler and was a huge part of his anti-semitism. The Left were the first victims of Hiter's concentration camps.

Lastly, the politics of Adolf Hitler are generally associated far more with the right wing than the left wing, thus it would make "conservatives", fascists, monarchists, etc much more closer to his point of view than the Left would.

To sum up Hitler's politics:



You can get the full descriptions of each here

Allan Bullock, probably the world's greatest Hitler historian, describes Hitler's political method in his excellent biography:

"While Hitler's attitude towards liberalism was one of contempt, towards Marxism he showed an implacable hostility… Ignoring the profound differences between Communism and Social Democracy in practice and the bitter hostility between the rival working class parties, he saw in their common ideology the embodiment of all that he detested -- mass democracy and a leveling egalitarianism as opposed to the authoritarian state and the rule of an elite; equality and friendship among peoples as opposed to racial inequality and the domination of the strong; class solidarity versus national unity; internationalism versus nationalism." (33)

Sorry for the long-windedness, but I too often encounter these "Hitler was a lefty!" "liberals supported Hitler!!" "Hitler was a socialist!!" et al threads that have no basis in fact. I hope this has cleared a few things up.

Excellent post! Completely unravels the twisted absurdity of the wind-up troll this whole thread is based on. Cheers!

On further reflection, those sorts of "liberals and lefties were friends with Hitler and the nazis" wind-ups that one sees on the web by these far right trolls are extremely offensive to people who are liberal or on the left. In many ways it is like accusing Jews of being on the side of the nazis considering how utterly and totally false that statement is and the way it is false. It's derogatory to the point of saying liberals and lefties are akin to the very worst elements of a society. The problem is that dialog and the political atmosphere, in the USA especially, has been so inudated and poisoned by this sort of propaganda from the far right that these absurd and slanderous statements are given some sort of credence as if they actually represent some sort of valid pov. They don't. And they never did.

 

[Sirian]

I'm a liberal(US people call it like that) and was under impression that no, Civ has a slightly conservative, though not neo-con bent. First off the ecological aspect is laughable. Second, looking trough the techs you have liberalism leading to *drumroll* communism. Oh my. And the 'Gore internet' thing is mocking for sure, he made a huge slip-up there. There's also the description of 'freedom of religion' civic about civilizations 'giving up to decadence'... Wow, call the liberal conspiracy, it's sheer conservative propaganda. Surely the fact that war elephants are so damn useful is also part of it? I mean, why not war donkeys?

War donkeys? Heh. I know some soldiers can act like a jackass now and again, but that's going too far.

BTW, Soren's a native son of California and leans left.


- Sirian

 

[AngryPants]

Here's evidence that the makers are liberal:
1. Dan Quayle is the lowest rank in leaders. Ok, Danny-boy wasn't great, but I can think of leaders lower than him: Jimmy Carter, for instance? How about Ross Perot?
2. Al Gore's picture on the internet. That's just plain blatant.
3. The fact the global warming is part of the game.
4. Having environmentalism as the highest civic in its category.

These are just the ones that come to mind.

- Sligo

I try to stay away from these threads, as its an election year and I'm already dreading the election commercials. Nevertheless, here goes, point by point:
1. I agree with you here. For those who don't know much about American politics, Vice Presidents have almost no power, official or otherwise. Dan Quayle, was never actually a "leader". Read the list of score ranks and you will see multiple heads of state and one Vice President. Which one is not like the others? He couldn't spell potato, but he was never actually in charge either. Trust me, there were/are dumber people elected in America; exhibit A: Gary Condit. If they wanted a truly rotten American President to stick at the bottom of the list, they should have picked James Buchanan. If they wanted some1 modern, then Jimmy Carter would be an ok choice.
2. Al Gore and the Internet is a quiet joke by the programmers. It mocks Gore, not applauds him. If anything his picture is indicates a conservative bias(not that I'm claiming the programmers are biased).
3. I'm not sure about the global warming thing, I've yet to see anything turn into a desert near where I live. Then again I haven't seen any spaceships fly to alpha centauri either, so I'll chalk this one up to artistic license and leave it at that.
4. Environmentalism comes with increased costs over free market, in exchange for greater health benefits. That seems like a fair portrayal to me.

Let's all try to remember that its just a game. An awesome game, but still a game.

 

[limaike]

Yesterday

and

Today

 

[Sahkuhnder]

BTW, Soren's a native son of California and leans left.

Now that is information that actually should be in your non-disclosure agreement.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Sorry I didn't respond to the Nevile comment earlier, well conservitives are wrong somtimes, (but I'd put isolationism more in the libertairian category) it really depends on the information that was avaiable at the time, I mean if we had even a whiff of the concentration camps back then then Chamberlian should have been taken out and beaten But for crying out loud can we stop the crazy conspiracy theory mongering, I just wanted to know if other people thought there was a bit of bias. Jeez everybody's an armchair president (including me)

 

[imagod284]

My $0.02,

First off, you guys are being a little bit silly in arguing this point. The game is played by people who have above average intelligence who already are plenty old to have their political opinions formed. I doubt many impressionable youths play Civ IV. I'd be more worried about your kids' teachers influencing their political opinions (my niece's teacher forced all of her 3rd graders to write letters to our Congressman protesting the war in Iraq, caused a whole lot of foaming at the mouth around here.) I would say that, if anything, the developers have a 'pro-Western' view of government. In every civ game democracy has been the overwhelming strongest government. Really, European countries became powers under Monarchies, and I would actually argue that they are less powerful in the world today than they were under Monarchy.

In game stuff:

-Conservative - Free Market is MILES better than Environmentalism

-Liberal - Having multiple religions in your cities is actually a good thing. I think it'd be more accurate to make it a crippling weakness but i suppose that would be way not politically correct.

 

[Vonreuter]

I'm tired of freezing my ass off. It's why I and a great many others are moving away from the north towards the sun belt states, in anticipation of the next ice age, which is probably right around the corner too.

How about studying the topic before mouthing off your ignorance. Even one or two degrees of warming, no matter what the cause, will cause much more than a warm, fuzzy feeling. Think about melting ice caps, the Gulf stream shutting down, water levels rising, extreme weather caused by rapid climate change (tornadoes, hurricanes)... These are all very possible scenarios, whatever the reason for global warming is (not to be debated here).

When a global system changes rapidly, it has drastic effects.

 

[imagod284]

Wasn't there a 'little ice age' between 1300 and 1800 where it was on average 2.5 degrees F colder? We survived that 2 degree warm-up after 1800 alright. I think a more honest thing to say about global warming is 'we don't know what would happen' as opposed to try to guess at the consequences, but i suppose that doesn't have the desired attention grabbing effect (although, it should be equally terrifying). Interestingly, when it comes to global warming, people claim to 'know' it's happening despite lack of known, solid proof. They also see our 'sins' (not taking care of the environment) as leading to a fire and brimstone-like demise. It seems to me that people seem to have a more 'religious' belief in global warming than a scientific one as few people are able to analyze the scientific data and instead rely on opinions of 'experts' (prophets?).

Anyways, i find this line of thought facinating. I'll now go lock my door to prevent being beaten to death by trolls...