Social Engineering

[Gerikes]

Just an idea that popped into my head this morning...

Perhaps after having police up to a certain degree, such as +3, you gain a percentage chance that self-targeted atrocities (such as Nerve Stapling) go unnoticed by the outside world. If you commit a self-targeted atrocity and it doesn't get revealed, to the outside world, it never happened (no diplomatic consequences like sanctions).

However, the problem could still be brought to light. Perhaps once the police rating drops below a certain point. Or, through a combination of a very successful probe team mission (and high infiltration at a base) an enemy faction can learn of the atrocity, and either reveal it to the U.N. for the typical U.N. response (plus some more for trying to cover it up), or blackmail the leader with it (A "Data on Some Base Nerve Stapling Blackmail" option would appear on the trade screen).

 

[woodelf]

I like that idea. Maybe once a certain tech level is approached as well these things are less likely to go as unnoticed? I like the potential for blackmail...

 

[woodelf]

Back to post 40 or the dreaded last post on the previous page...

I think this will seriously work for the Morale factor in SE.

The factor values could look like this:

-4 you multiple pow by 0.8
-3 by 0.85
-2 by 0.90
-1 by 0.95
0
+1 by 1.05
+2 by 1.10
+3 by 1.15
+4 by 1.20

It might not be enough, but an example would be two laser infantry going at it with no other bonuses involved. A super low morale (-4) would be fighting at a pow of 3.2 while the tope morale (+4) would have a pow of 4.8. Morale would certainly matter.

 

[woodelf]

Onto the Planet factor.

I think we're in agreement that we're having a fungus type of terrain and eventually native lifeforms, potentially mindworms. One of the next steps is trying to tie in SE and some values that become influenced by the faction's Planet rating.

Possible effects:

Worker times increased/decreased for clearing or planting fungus
Nutrient, energy bonus increased/decreased per tile
The ability of cultural borders to keep fungus out
Capturing native lifeforms with bonus based on rating
Fighting native lifeforms with bonus based on rating
Trading with natives? Only possible at high rating
Peace with natives? At highest rating?

Other ideas?

 

[woodelf]

For support:

-4 each troop costs 2gp, no free units
-3 each troop costs 1gp, no free units
-2 2 free units
-1 5 free units
0 8 free units
+1 12 free units
+2 16 free units
+3 20 free units
+4 30 free units

If possible it'd be nice to tie this value into how large your empire is as well so instead of a straight free units you'd get a calculation of free units depending on your civ size.

The above values are pretty extreme, but if we want a prototype eventually we need something.

 

[Maniac]

Worker times increased/decreased for clearing or planting fungus
Nutrient, energy bonus increased/decreased per tile
The ability of cultural borders to keep fungus out
Capturing native lifeforms with bonus based on rating
Fighting native lifeforms with bonus based on rating
Trading with natives? Only possible at high rating
Peace with natives? At highest rating?

Good effects. :b: Except I'd suggest Planet does not influence fungus clearing time. Planet-friendly factions are supposed not to harm the fungus after all.

 

[woodelf]

Good effects. :b: Except I'd suggest Planet does not influence fungus clearing time. Planet-friendly factions are supposed not to harm the fungus after all.

Good point. Maybe unfriendly factions have X chance of spawning natives when clearing a patch?

Also, adding bonuses to fungus tiles for eco friendly civs will eliminate the desire to clear.

 

[Gerikes]

Good point. Maybe unfriendly factions have X chance of spawning natives when clearing a patch?

Also, adding bonuses to fungus tiles for eco friendly civs will eliminate the desire to clear.

I think the second choice is best. It makes no sense to me why someone with a high planet rating would benefit from clearing fungus. Kind of contradictory.

 

[woodelf]

Maybe at >=+1 Planet your workers can no longer clear at all.

 

[Gerikes]

Maybe at >=+1 Planet your workers can no longer clear at all.

That would be interesting, or reverse that: if you clear too much during the game, your planet value could "max out" at some not large number.

Of course, we'd probably have to come up with stuff like this for the other categories as well.

 

[woodelf]

That would be interesting, or reverse that: if you clear too much during the game, your planet value could "max out" at some not large number.

Of course, we'd probably have to come up with stuff like this for the other categories as well.

Yeah, this is the sort of thing that can come out with brainstorming when we try to balance the SEs.

 

[Maniac]

Maybe at >=+1 Planet your workers can no longer clear at all.

In that case Planet-friendly factions should be able to found cities on fungus though.

 

[woodelf]

Should or shouldn't Maniac? I agree with shouldn't.

 

[Maniac]

Should. If I was playing with the Cult of Planet and was more or less coexisting with the fungus, spreading it everywhere and unable to remove it, I would be very annoyed if one of my bases couldn't share the perfect founding tile with fungus.

 

[woodelf]

Okay, so they aren't clearing it, but co-existing. I can agree with that.

 

[woodelf]

So how is this going to be implemented into the Civics screen and XML? Will we need 10 new icons and XML tags that can raise/lower the overall total column which corresponds to a value for the faction? Can we just use the 10 factors and have the civics give tag numbers like <iPlanet>0</iPlanet>, <iSupport>0</iSupport>, ect? So each civic option will have these 10 choices to enter in numbers from -4 to 4.

Does this rambling make any sense?

 

[woodelf]

To expand further (and I apologize if this is completely wrong or already assumed) is this what we plan on doing?

Changing this:

Spoiler :

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>

to this:

Spoiler :

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iEconomy>0</iEconomy>
<iPlanet>0</iPlanet>
<iPolice>0</iPolice>
<iSupport>0</iSupport>
<iResearch>0</iResearch>
<iMorale>0</iMorale>
<iGrowth>0</iGrowth>
<iProbe>0</iProbe>
<iEfficiency>0</iEfficiency>
<iIndustry>0</iIndustry>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>

And all of these 10 factors would also be included in either factions or individual leaders so we can add it altogether.

 

[Gerikes]

So how is this going to be implemented into the Civics screen and XML? Will we need 10 new icons and XML tags that can raise/lower the overall total column which corresponds to a value for the faction? Can we just use the 10 factors and have the civics give tag numbers like <iPlanet>0</iPlanet>, <iSupport>0</iSupport>, ect? So each civic option will have these 10 choices to enter in numbers from -4 to 4.

Does this rambling make any sense?

I wouldn't mind if someone wanted to do a mockup for a screen. As for the actual data, it's probably best if along with Civics and CivicOptions, there is a final category. Civics would be the actual state of each social engineering factor (support -10, support -9, etc., planet -10, planet -9, etc...). CivicOptions would be the engineering factors themselves (support, planet, etc.). The final new XML file would contain the Social Engineering choices, that would look like this..

<SocialEngineeringChoice>
	<Type>SOCIAL_ENGEERING_CHOICE_PLANNED</Type>
	<iWealth>1</iWealth>
	<iSupport>-1</iSupport>
	...
</SocialEngineeringChoice>

I'm just rushing to cobble together numbers, and also the "Social Engineering Choice" tag could probably be changed. But, that's what it would be.

So, everything works the same as in Civ4, including how the Civics are calculated, all that would change is how they can select those civics. Rather than clicking a button, they click on buttons changing their SE choices, and the correct civic is chosen for them.

 

[woodelf]

So the Civics screen would hold the totals and that would equate to a value for the game to use?

I like the SMAC/X screen to be used as a template for this personally. It has all of the choices and a total column to let you see how your choices add up and their effects.

 

[Rubin]

Here's a Social Engineering screenshot from SMAC/X. I would really like to see the Civics screen modified to reflect the layout of the SMAC/X screen; especially the horizontal value changes (7) (I never liked the vertical design of Civ4).

The "society effects" summary (1) would be a nice candidate for displaying the total effects--perhaps with some color indicators. Though, this part should be non-interactive.

These two parts make up the basic layout of the screen and leave us plenty of room to add non-SE civics and text boxes. The remaining parts can be ignored entirely as long as we have the option to display the SE value changes for each individual SE option.

The main components of the screen would be the 4x4 matrix and the list of the 10 SE values.

I'd be happy to help with the python screen, but I still cannot build one (at least not from scratch).

Spoiler :