Social Engineering

[woodelf]

Do we need 2 and 3 of the screen?

 

[Rubin]

Do we need 2 and 3 of the screen?

No. Only (1) & (7).

 

[woodelf]

What about 5 and 8 if possible? I think they add something to the screen.

 

[Rubin]

What about 5 and 8 if possible? I think they add something to the screen.

(5) is already present in (1)--or, you could say use (5) instead of (1) because of the non-interactive display.

I agree that the information in (8) should be displayed somewhere.

 

[Gerikes]

I think we can remove (2) & (3), and possibly (6). The rest I would keep (although I can't remember what (4) does... is that the one you're hovered over?)

I was thinking of having two (5)'s, one for current, and one for what it would be if you made the changes that you clicked (the changes don't take affect until you click "Revolution" or whatever it will be called).

BTW, the beauty of (1) was that you could click one of those and it would allow for you to instantly see the combination that would max that specified category. Should this be kept? If so, it will probably have to be taken into consideration as we create the screen.

Definitely going to have to do some mock-ups of this one.

 

[Rubin]

Are we about to start building the screen (interactive 4x4 matrix + summary + accept/reset/exit buttons)?

I assume the rest (whatever we decide upon) can be added later.

 

[Maniac]

Well I'm still against Social Engineering. As far as I can see the downsides clearly outweigh any benefits (please name them).

Rubin, might I remind you of something you said in the civics thread?

Maniac, there should basically be no reduction in flexibility using either system. I guess you can view it as two different ways of handling the same thing.

If using "Social Engineering" reduces our flexibility in making interesting civics then we should not be using "Social Engineering".

Meaning you'd more or less keep our options open for now.

However now, without even knowing what will the Social Engineering effects for the factors be or what the Social Engineering choices will be, you're already proposing to build a new screen and even tieing the number of SE choices down to 4x4. Aren't you guys getting way ahead of yourselves? Personally I'd say there are more important stuff to concentrate on which are more important to get something playable working (eg combat).

If you really already want to continue with implementing the possibility of social engineering though, may I suggest the following:

Change the current:

Spoiler :

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>

to:

Spoiler :

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iEconomy>0</iEconomy>
<iPlanet>0</iPlanet>
<iPolice>0</iPolice>
<iSupport>0</iSupport>
<iResearch>0</iResearch>
<iMorale>0</iMorale>
<iGrowth>0</iGrowth>
<iProbe>0</iProbe>
<iEfficiency>0</iEfficiency>
<iIndustry>0</iIndustry>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>

Meaning if you later find there's some cool civics effect that you cannot or don't want to fit in a SE factor, you can still use it.

And to determine the effects of each value of each SE factor, may I suggest a new XML file called CIV4SocialEngineeringInfos.xml including stuff like:

Spoiler :

<SocialEngineeringInfo>
<SEFactor>SEFACTOR_PLANET</SEFactor>
<iValue>0</iValue>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</SocialEngineeringInfo>

Since Social Engineering is merely tying civics effects together, you could then set civics values for each SE factor value.

 

[Rubin]

Maniac, the "flexibility" issue still stands. All I asked was if we are about to build the screen.

No matter how Planetfall civics are going to be, I'd still be advocating a re-designed civics screen.

If you (or anyone else) would like to do something else, please go ahead. I did mention in this post that I may not be of much use on civics.:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5127708&postcount=18

I disagree with your objection to "tieing the number of SE choices down to 4x4". If the screen is defined by this, it would be pointless, of course. However, this is not the case based on my previous experiences of modifying screens. If I am wrong on this specific issue, please correct me.

I offer my help where I can. Currently, there is not much I can do and I won't be detailing specific issues like a combat system or a "Design Workshop" workaround; simply because you are still brainstorming. It is a waste of both my time and your time. There has been a lot of good ideas on a SMAC/X themed mod since before Civ4 launched; there has been no such mods! I urge all of you to decide on "something" as soon as possible.

How long should you debate civics?

 

[Gerikes]

Well I'm still against Social Engineering. As far as I can see the downsides clearly outweigh any benefits (please name them).

I've already come out with my support and reasons, unfortunately they seem to be in another thread.

The upside is that Social Engineering allows me as the player to easily select how I want to concentrate my civic choices. The civic system in Civ4 is a bunch of different bonuses/penalties that are spread over a bunch of different civics, which are only described and identified through their terms such as "Slavery" or "Freedom of Speech". I can get "Freedom of Speech" and get what I want, but it probably has other consequences too. I want to be able to weigh these together, and I'm lazy, so I want to be able to do it easily. Social Engineering allows me to easily be able to do that, by providing me a system to measure the gains/benefits. I can see in a glance that choosing one civic over another will harm/hurt different parts of my Faction (economy, military, planet-friendliness, etc.) Furthermore, by simply clicking which part I want to work on, I can have the Civics basically chosen for me, which is something in Civ4 I miss.

However, I also realize that I probably won't be doing a lot with the Civics (as you can probably tell, I'm not really interested in that part of Civ4 and SMAC), so my opinion probably be counted alongside or above others.

Rubin, might I remind you of something you said in the civics thread?



Meaning you'd more or less keep our options open for now.

However now, without even knowing what will the Social Engineering effects for the factors be or what the Social Engineering choices will be, you're already proposing to build a new screen and even tieing the number of SE choices down to 4x4.

It's probably a bit early for tying it down 4x4, but my plan (which I now realize I didn't formally express) was to early on, go with a screen exactly like Civ4's, except each CivicOption table had somewhere around 11 civics, and each one was about one of the different capabilities. So, your "Wealth" would have from -5 to 5, and while we test we could just select the one we wanted. Later on, the screen would be formatted to have the actual Social Engineering choices. I think much of the ideas here were what the screen would look like because there wasn't that much opposition to SE in the first place. Now that we've heard some, we'll probably stop measuring the window size for curtains

Spoiler :

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>

to:

Spoiler :

<CivicInfo>
<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT</CivicOptionType>
<Type>CIVIC_AUTOCRACY</Type>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iEconomy>0</iEconomy>
<iPlanet>0</iPlanet>
<iPolice>0</iPolice>
<iSupport>0</iSupport>
<iResearch>0</iResearch>
<iMorale>0</iMorale>
<iGrowth>0</iGrowth>
<iProbe>0</iProbe>
<iEfficiency>0</iEfficiency>
<iIndustry>0</iIndustry>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</CivicInfo>

Meaning if you later find there's some cool civics effect that you cannot or don't want to fit in a SE factor, you can still use it.

This would probably be more difficult to implement. Each of those tags relate to different pieces of code, and currently my thoughts were to make a CivicInfo and make it one step on the range of values you can have for any SE Category. That way, all the code is all done and all we need to do is add code to set what Civic is needed. If we did want to have some cool civics effect that doesn't fit into an SE factor, it would be easier to leave all that code in the Civics system, where it will be used, and copy any part we want into the new SE Factor system, rather than vice-versa. I hope I explained that well.

And to determine the effects of each value of each SE factor, may I suggest a new XML file called CIV4SocialEngineeringInfos.xml including stuff like:

Spoiler :

<SocialEngineeringInfo>
<SEFactor>SEFACTOR_PLANET</SEFactor>
<iValue>0</iValue>
<Description>Autocracy</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_DESPOTISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/Civics/g-autocracy.dds</Button>
<TechPrereq>NONE</TechPrereq>
<iAnarchyLength>1</iAnarchyLength>
<Upkeep>UPKEEP_LOW</Upkeep>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>0</iDistanceMaintenanceModifier>
<iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>0</iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier>
<iExtraHealth>0</iExtraHealth>
<iFreeExperience>0</iFreeExperience>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>0</iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iBaseFreeUnits>0</iBaseFreeUnits>
<iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>0</iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits>
<iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>0</iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent>
<iGoldPerUnit>0</iGoldPerUnit>
<iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>0</iGoldPerMilitaryUnit>
<iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>0</iHappyPerMilitaryUnit>
<bMilitaryFoodProduction>0</bMilitaryFoodProduction>
<iMaxConscript>0</iMaxConscript>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<iLargestCityHappiness>0</iLargestCityHappiness>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
<bNoForeignTrade>0</bNoForeignTrade>
<iCivicPercentAnger>0</iCivicPercentAnger>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<bNoNonStateReligionSpread>0</bNoNonStateReligionSpread>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iNonStateReligionHappiness>0</iNonStateReligionHappiness>
<iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>0</iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier>
<iStateReligionFreeExperience>0</iStateReligionFreeExperience>
<YieldModifiers/>
<CapitalYieldModifiers/>
<TradeYieldModifiers/>
<CommerceModifiers/>
<CapitalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<Hurrys/>
<SpecialBuildingNotRequireds/>
<SpecialistValids/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<FeatureHappinessChanges/>
<ImprovementYieldChanges/>
<WeLoveTheKing>TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_DESPOT</WeLoveTheKing>
</SocialEngineeringInfo>

Since Social Engineering is merely tying civics effects together, you could then set civics values for each SE factor value.[/QUOTE]

But then it wouldn't be Social Engineering. It would be Civics. Which means you lose the reasons why I think that Social Engineering is a better idea. If I'm wrong on this, than so be it, but at least let's figure out which way we stand before we go ahead and implement it.

Maniac, the "flexibility" issue still stands. All I asked was if we are about to build the screen.

No matter how Planetfall civics are going to be, I'd still be advocating a re-designed civics screen.

If you (or anyone else) would like to do something else, please go ahead. I did mention in this post that I may not be of much use on civics.:

I disagree with your objection to "tieing the number of SE choices down to 4x4". If the screen is defined by this, it would be pointless, of course. However, this is not the case based on my previous experiences of modifying screens. If I am wrong on this specific issue, please correct me.

I think you used the 4x4 matrix as an example, but Maniac (and I as well, at first) took it as a decision.

I offer my help where I can. Currently, there is not much I can do and I won't be detailing specific issues like a combat system or a "Design Workshop" workaround; simply because you are still brainstorming. It is a waste of both my time and your time. There has been a lot of good ideas on a SMAC/X themed mod since before Civ4 launched; there has been no such mods! I urge all of you to decide on "something" as soon as possible.

And I can only urge patience. I think we're confusing the past few years of other SMAC mods plannings with planning for this mod, which isn't the case. I'm ok with where we are, and where we're going. There's discussion, and that's fine, it's a good thing, point the things out now. You'd be amazed how well I can work so long as we have definite articles of what can be implemented, even if it's "That won't be the final word, but it's close enough so that we can play with it awhile".

However, seeing as I had thought that we were all on the same page with combat, I think we should go and finalize that first, because the tech tree and unit movement/combat, I believe, are what drive the rest of the game.

 

[Maniac]

Maniac, the "flexibility" issue still stands. All I asked was if we are about to build the screen.

I guess I misinterpreted you on te 4x4 issue.

I've already come out with my support and reasons, unfortunately they seem to be in another thread.

Do I understand you correctly that you want:
1) an easier to use interface
2) less strategic variety so you don't have to think much about what to choose

While I agree with 1), personally I'd disagree with 2) as a goal.

I think much of the ideas here were what the screen would look like because there wasn't that much opposition to SE in the first place. Now that we've heard some, we'll probably stop measuring the window size for curtains

Well, I just disagreed with Rubin & woodelf, so there isn't much else I can say or add.

This would probably be more difficult to implement. Each of those tags relate to different pieces of code, and currently my thoughts were to make a CivicInfo and make it one step on the range of values you can have for any SE Category. That way, all the code is all done and all we need to do is add code to set what Civic is needed. If we did want to have some cool civics effect that doesn't fit into an SE factor, it would be easier to leave all that code in the Civics system, where it will be used, and copy any part we want into the new SE Factor system, rather than vice-versa. I hope I explained that well.

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you want to code all civics into the SDK, meaning that if we wanted to make a slight balance change, it would always have to be done in the SDK?

But then it wouldn't be Social Engineering. It would be Civics. Which means you lose the reasons why I think that Social Engineering is a better idea. If I'm wrong on this, than so be it, but at least let's figure out which way we stand before we go ahead and implement it.

We may again be confused about what we all consider Social Engineering. Isn't it:
1) summarizing various effects into a simple +x Planet/Police/..., meaning less clutter on the screen
2) having the option for the effects of +2 Economy being more than +1 Economy +1 Economy

With the suggest SocialEngineeringInfos.xml you could in XML set the effects of each individual SE factor value using existing specific civics effects.

While 1) is of course a good goal, my experience with 2) through the SMAniaC SE is that it seriously reduces your options in creating interesting SE choices. Because you always have to be conservative; you always have to go through each possible combination of SE choices/faction/buildings... to make sure there isn't some overpowered combo possible.

I think you used the 4x4 matrix as an example, but Maniac (and I as well, at first) took it as a decision.

Yep.

 

[Gerikes]

Do I understand you correctly that you want:
1) an easier to use interface
2) less strategic variety so you don't have to think much about what to choose

While I agree with 1), personally I'd disagree with 2) as a goal.

Of course, you twist my words, sir

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean you want to code all civics into the SDK, meaning that if we wanted to make a slight balance change, it would always have to be done in the SDK?

No, rather we would add on a third XML file to the already existant Civ4Civics and Civ4CivicOptions, and place the social engineering choices ("Planned", "Free Market", "Police State", for example) into that third file. Those files would just have the +'s and -'s. The SDK side of the civic XML would be left untouched. If we wanted to make an SE choice do more than just the + or -, we could more easily copy the code and tags from the civics file. This, IMO, is easier than placing the SE choices in the Civics file, then finding somewhere else to put all the results of the different values (-5, -4, -3...) for each Factor.

We may again be confused about what we all consider Social Engineering. Isn't it:
1) summarizing various effects into a simple +x Planet/Police/..., meaning less clutter on the screen
2) having the option for the effects of +2 Economy being more than +1 Economy +1 Economy

With the suggest SocialEngineeringInfos.xml you could in XML set the effects of each individual SE factor value using existing specific civics effects.

While 1) is of course a good goal, my experience with 2) through the SMAniaC SE is that it seriously reduces your options in creating interesting SE choices. Because you always have to be conservative; you always have to go through each possible combination of SE choices/faction/buildings... to make sure there isn't some overpowered combo possible.

Well, that's a discussion for SE vs. Civics. But, if we do go the SE route, I would put all the big changes in the Civics file, where there is already the ability to handle it, and the +1 and -1 into a new file.

They can't go in the same file, or at least they can't go in the same XML. You can't have an SE choice such as Free Market which is also the +3 Planet "civic", that would be putting apples and oranges in the same XML file.

 

[GeoModder]

As I see it, civics and Social Engineering are the same thing? Only the term is different?

 

[woodelf]

I had to move you Geo.

They are the same, but not. Please read the Education of woodelf on the differences of SE and civics, better know as this thread.

 

[GeoModder]

Ah, thanks. Will read tomorrow evening after work.

 

[woodelf]

Read at work, multi-task.

 

[GeoModder]

Can't, I have a drone job.
g'night all. :zzz:

 

[Gerikes]

I've made a quick chart of what I feel to be the main difference. I'm not sure if it will help at all. Basically, in Civics, you have 5 civic options, and for each five civics. Each Civic typically can do whatever it wants.

In SE, you have the four SE categories, each Category has Category options, each option gives + or - to effects, and each effect, depending on the total +/-, deals certain effects to the player.

 

[woodelf]

So Geo gets the Cliff notes and I had to get tutored.

 

[GeoModder]

Thanks Gerikes, the pic brought me up to speed in no-time.

Well, after reading the thread it seems most participants in it are in favour of SE over Civics.
I haven't seen a post why Maniac is against it, but knowing his educational background I might have a fair idea myself.

Can I take it this mod is going to use Social Engineering?

 

[Gerikes]

Thanks Gerikes, the pic brought me up to speed in no-time.

Really? After I posted it I thought it would cause more confusion

Well, after reading the thread it seems most participants in it are in favour of SE over Civics.
I haven't seen a post why Maniac is against it, but knowing his educational background I might have a fair idea myself.

Can I take it this mod is going to use Social Engineering?

You can if you'd like, but you would be wrong

For now, it's still up in the air. Maniac made good points in post 67, that in the end we would be forcing ourselves to create Civics that specialize in one area.

I was going to suggest that for now we create the Civic screen using normal Civic Options and Civics that would represent what we would use for our SE Categories and SE Category Options.

For example, if we were to be cloning SMAC, we would have the four civic options, and the four civics for each one. Take Free Market. The civic effects would relate to options that have to do with police ("support" and unit happiness tags), options that have to do with planet (I guess health for now), and options that have to do with economy (wealth bonuses). This would bring us half-way to what we want, as we would be getting the bonuses we need (the Free Market civic would give great bonuses in economy tags, and great penalties in police tags. I'm not familiar with the Civic tags so I don't exactly know what can be done currently).

This would only be using XML, unless a tag needs to be added here or there. It shouldn't take long, and it gives us a base of what we want to work with and allows us to test out values that we could easily transfer to SE if we want to.