Social Progress System (new Tech System for WTP / Civ4Col) [ACCEPTED]

Does Social Progress sound like a good game concept?


  • Total voters
    27
If you play in any reasonable way you should get everything you need in time.
I play in a very unreasonable way, with great focus on exploration and piracy. (=

Do you feel you research Founding Fathers right now ?
No. They give pleasant bonuses, but nothing obligatory, and can easily be skipped - and that's the beauty of their concept, I believe. Arguably the most important founding father giving tremendous advantage is the first to be acquired, Jacques Marquette - at least with my playstyle.

Also there is conditional semi-randomness in 12 parallel Tech Trees - how can something like that even be linear?
You don't get X unless you do Y seems pretty linear to me. Maybe more details alleviate all my concerns, but as far as I understand it is too early for that?

Do you really need all Ship Types in the first 50 turns right now?
Not unless I am very lucky at the start. If I am, though - I purchase Galleon and/or Privateer ASAP.

I listen to it and I answer ... :dunno:
But my decision - for myself - has already been made.
I didn't imply anything negative by that last phrase. It is fair that opinions of players who did not invest time and effort into developing the mod should not really count compared to developers.
 
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I listen to it and I answer ... :dunno:
But my decision - for myself - has already been made.

I didn't imply anything negative by that last phrase. It is fair that opinions of players who did not invest time and effort into developing the mod should not really count compared to developers.
Sorry, there seems to be some confusion here. And I feel I should clarify that. :(

There is a huge difference between raystuttgart (private modder) and raystuttgart in WTP (equal team member).
And no, I am not schizophrenic with multiple personailities ... :)

To formulate it differently:
  • I have rights as a private modder to implement things for myself in my private mod exactly the way I like.
  • I however also have rights to discuss for the WTP core mod considerng the things we WTP team implement together or not in a way we all like.
  • I also have as a WTP team member the responsibility to make sure the WTP core mod is successful - but for my private mod which is never published I have not
If those match that is great, because getting things directly into WTP core mod is always better. :)
Sometimes however they simply do not match and that is also fine.

For this concept I still need to figure out if they match or not.
Meaning if this will become just "ray private mod" or "WTP core mod".

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I do not talk about WTP, when I say "my decision has been made" for myself.

I have no authority to speak like that for the complete WTP team and do not even want it.
WTP and myself is not the same and never was. I am just one out of several team members.

WTP is a team of several equal team members and supporters that need to find agreements and consense.
That is why each team member asks community and team if they like an idea and if we should try to make it become part of the mod together.

raystuttgart is a single free and independent modder that can still at least try to implement for himself whatever he likes (just for his personal usage).
So sometimes WTP and raystuttgart (as single person) simply share ideas and sometimes they simpyly do not.

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I have decided that I would like to implement this as a private modder - and for that I need nobody's approval.
But as I said: The concept I have come up with I will discuss in detail with team and supporters and I also listen to community.

Now comes the next step: To figure out what the WTP team wants. (And this includes listening to community as already stated above.)
If team and community like the idea we will discuss how we will implement it in WTP together and try to find a consense.

As a private modder I am nobody's boss and I also have no boss.
As a WTP team member I need to figure out what team and communtiy want.

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But again, WTP and raystuttgart is not the same.
When I create my concepts I speak as raystuttgart to figure out if it might become WTP.

I am willing to listen and to make compromises in most cases just to have it become WTP.
Because the team as a whole can create much better quality with much higher efficiency.

At some point each of us team members can also say "no" though (see "veto right" of a team member):
"Ok there is simply no consense because we want different things, so let us get over with it and instead find another idea we share."

I can not decide for the WTP team what gets into the mod and I do not even want to.
And each team member also has a veto right considering the things that stay out of the mod.

----

Summary:

We WTP team members share the common interest which is the WTP mod.
But we are also still free and independend modders of our own that are allowed to implement stuff for their private mods.
 
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I see concern and I will say that my take on modding in general (which includes this thread) is that the game should:
  • not dictate how to play or a certain playing style
  • give the player the option to decide as much as possible
  • ability to automate if something requires "too much" micromanagement
  • be fully playable for casual players (no steep learning curve etc)
  • be fun to play
Some people have voiced concerns and I share them in the sense that I'm aware that it's possible to not live up to those requirements. It is however also possible to do so. It all depends on details in the implementation. Those details haven't been mentioned and likely not planned yet.

One thing I have learned is that I have a different playing style than Ray has. I find that to be a good thing because that makes us keep each other in check against changes, which forces certain playing styles on the players.

For now I suspect it's mainly the fear of the unknown. The fear of what might happen because the plan isn't detailed enough yet to reveal precisely what will happen. I'm however not worried as I will review each detail as they appear.

Also I view this as a two part task. First task is to do the programming and deciding xml layout while the second part is to fill out xml to make use of this. I have some ideas on how to push all design decisions to xml to such a degree that we have never seen it before. Not only will this make it easier to test different configurations, it will also allow us to "undo" parts, which doesn't work as expected, most likely even without doing any programming. This gives us plenty of room to experiment.

You shouldn't worry too much. It's not like we suddenly forgot how to create decent gameplay.
 
  • not dictate how to play or a certain playing style
Where do you see that? :confused:

The player can use his pesonal play style and will thus faster unlock things that match it.
The rest he will simply unlock later.
  • The Player builds more Improvements --> He will get "Improvement Techs" faster
  • The Player focusses on Navy --> He will get "Naval Techs" faster.
Where is there any dictating involved if the system adjusts to the players actions and to support this gamestyle ?

Is it already dictating just because he can not ulock all 200 Techs at once?
Because then "Civ4BTS" is the most hardcore dictating game I have ever seen ...

  • give the player the option to decide as much as possible
Any Tech system needs to have "Techs" appear in a logical order.
So there need to be some gameplay rules the player needs to follow.

Do I take away player decisions because I create a system with gameplay logic and gameplay rules?
This is like saying that chess has taken away all player decisions just because it has rules.

  • ability to automate if something requires "too much" micromanagement
Where is there "micromanagement" in this concept?
You just play naturally (using available game features) and the gameplay will step by step unfold for you.

It will even help beginners, because the game will start slowly with less complexity.
Then the further your gameplay progresses it will unlock new Units, Promotions ... and increase complexity.

  • be fully playable for casual players (no steep learning curve etc)
See above, this is just going to help casual players come into the game.
The learning curve will be slow, because you have less complexity in the beginning and increasingly more towards the end of the game.

There will be a lot of long term strategic thinking in there to optimize this style of game play.
But each single feature will be added step by step and also explained to players in the "Social Progress" popup.

  • be fun to play
Well ok, personal taste of each person is different. :dunno:
What is great fun for me, is boring or annoying for others ...

But which of my game concepts is so bad and not fun?
Give me an example so I even understand what we are talking about ...
Some people have voiced concerns and I share them in the sense that I'm aware that it's possible ...
As I told you, if I would have stopped every of my concept if there were a few doubters this mod would not exist because RaR would never have existed ...

It all depends on details in the implementation.
Of course, the best cooking book recept can be messed up if you use too much salt.

... likely not planned yet.
Nothing is "planned yet" - I only have a concept in my mind that starts taking more and more shape.
"Feature Design" is a very creative and iterative progress that can not fully be described and planned top down ahead of time.

One thing I have learned is that I have a different playing style than Ray has.
Of course, but that is normal. :)

At the moment there is just fear of the unknown and doubts that I might do something that somebody may not like.
But where is the dreaming and the believing that this might become great if we work on it together?

I find that to be a good thing because that makes us keep each other in check against changes, ...
That is why I want to have an internal session with the team and the supporters to answer all their questions and to explain my ideas. :thumbsup:

The fear of what might happen because the plan isn't detailed enough yet to reveal precisely what will happen.
Guys, feature creation is an creative and iterative process.
It is not top down fully planable and not precise ahead of actually implementing.

I'm however not worried as I will review each detail as they appear.
That is all I ask for now. Enough courage and believe to simply start the journey ...

First task is to do the programming and deciding xml layout while the second part is to fill out xml to make use of this.
System Capabilities and Gameplay Design need to influence each other iteratively.
There is not strict first part or second part. We simply start step by step and make it better and iteratively work on new ideas.

I have some ideas on how to push all design decisions to xml to such a degree that we have never seen it before. Not only will this make it easier to test different configurations, it will also allow us to "undo" parts, which doesn't work as expected, most likely even without doing any programming. This gives us plenty of room to experiment.
Let us still focus though first on what we want and need for gameplay and not on "one million possibilities and eventualities" that we have no idea if we will ever use them.

You shouldn't worry too much. It's not like we suddenly forgot how to create decent gameplay.
Exactly. :hug:
 
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Just the how to "unlock step by step" was discussed, not if we generally wanted to "unlock step by step".
The goal was always clear for us.

Then was no misunderstanding in it`s focus/ goal/ priority, or call it by whatever name.
Remains: same problem as with techs. :undecide:

What do you mean with "support"? :confused:

What I could fully support (up to contribute with work) is de facto progress
For new ideas/ details in XML (not programming/ graphic!): like buildings, units, promotions, ships, whatever.

You are not going to become a modder or supporter as far as I understood.

Already a modder in various games. ;)
In case of CivCol made my main mod for vanilla first, then adopted/ expanded to: TAC 2.03 as modmod, then RAR 2.5, 2.7 (after a long consideration time for RAR which had also parts I disliked, TAC were just an easy adopt - there were less what was not fine"as it is").
Would like to update to WTP when it hits cc. somewhere 2.9 - 3.0 -> which is right now an IF sadly. :undecide:
All of this is about: try to make the if -> yes will.

So many of the "dislike an idea/ part of it OR concept OR goal of concept" or whatever type comment have a single desire:
Express an opinion WITH THE GOAL: to have a future version of WTP mainmod which so-so good as it is.
Like TAC was over vanilla. Not as RAR was over TAC (where extra content won but not as easily).

Means: which require less personalization/ "restore stuff as were before (more or less as were)" eg.: try to minimalize work which does nothing else than restore old/ disable new details/ content what a modder or team put in as details (for sure with much work/ effort).
If too much effort/ work is neccesary to modify (here not talk about expand) the mainmod, then in the "take it or not" question the not increase in chance, and only the new content can push to the take it direction.
(In case disliked parts can be corrected in XML - otherwise decision becames simple: not take it.)

You right raystuttgart: RAR was similar, and in the end the extra/ new content win over unfavorable changes/ ones.
Simply wish to not do that much (or more) extra effort as happened with RAR.
And opposed with that time: comment on/ argue on parts - try to make it more suitable by base before unfavorable things get implemented/ part of it in large quantity.

I have hope it can be better. :love:
If that changes: became "not take it" - there will be no more disagreement/ argument/ critics.
Only untill there is hope: it will be overall something so-so good as it is.
 
@modmod

Ok, I am kind of guessing what you are trying to tell me there. :confused:
(It is most likely related to language / translation issues, so I understand.)

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What I read is:
  • You are not happy with the changes we have made in RaR / WTP in the past.
  • You have had lots of efforts to maintain and adjust your personal mod to RaR / WTP.
  • You do not want us to add further big changes to WTP.
Summary:
You have a different personal taste.
(Or a different vision.)

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All I can answer to that:
  • Well ok then your goals are not mine and as I understand also not the ones of the team.
  • We had all discussed recently that we want to add more features as well - for me personally that is the only reason to still be here.
  • The issues you have with maintaining your personal mod with our new versions are a pitty, but they are also not the problem of WTP.
Summary:
Your personal taste is not my problem.
(And my vision is definitely not the same as yours.)

The only person that will make your own personal taste come true is yourself.
I will not change my plans because of that and I doubt that WTP team will.

----

Summary:

I am sorry that you are not happy with the things we did and plan to do. :(

That you have your personal taste is perfecly fine.
But your personal taste is simply not my business. :dunno:

I am not going to speak for WTP though.
The other team members shall speak for themselves if they are interested.

About this concept:

Until now feedback of team and supporters was very positive.
Community vote in the poll shows an overwhelming community majority.

Thus there is no reason for me to doubt currently that this will become WTP core mod content.
The negative feedback of a single community member is not going to change this.

Otherwise:

This is a feature thread to explain and create a specific concept.
If you want to further discuss your issues with WTP or simply give feedback, please create a separate thread.

Thanks a lot in advance. :thumbsup:
 
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Ok, after checking my game concept for "design flaws" / "missing dependencies" to other features I figured out that I had missed an important dependency ... :blush:

This is what my concept had not yet considered - but now does:

Social Progress needs to be used to trigger Era Changes !
And Era Changes can then cause changes in UnitArtStyles, Music, CityArtStyles, CitySounds, Background Screens (if we want) ...

This actually needs several small changes in Era Sytem as well ... thus again effort ...
(Those can however only be done, after the basic Social Progress System is implemented.)

General Comment:

This is not that important for gameplay / balancing, but it has a lot of impact for atmosphere / immersion.

To simplify it:

Era Changes
will not be triggered anymore by simple "turn checks".
Era Changes will be triggered specific "Era Triggering Social Progresses" becoming available ingame.

Reminder:
Need another XML tag in SocialProgress.xml to flag as "EraChangers".

-------

Edit:

Concept in starting post is updated.
 
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Sounds great!
It is basically conceptionally just like Eras and Techs in Civ4BTS are connected. :dunno:
Since Civ4Col simply did not have "Techs" until now, it instead used stupid "turn checks" ... :blush:
 
One very important question came to my mind: Will this system be able to unlock and lock professions?

Example: In particular the military professions should change in course of the ages/eras, i.e. between 1492 and 1800. We have a lot of professions that - to my view, in particular for the atmosphere - need to change.

In 1492 we only might have Halberdiers, Swordsman, Conquistadors, Musketeers (the terms light infantry, line infantry did not exist in 1492). In course of the game this should change to the current names of the professions. However, if we cannot unlock professions, we need to think about that. Same for cannons - as long as these are only units it should not be a problem, but if we change them to professions now this may change.

For ships we should not have an issue because all ships are units and can simply change in course of the eras.
 
Will this system be able to unlock and lock professions?
Technically yes, but we should be very very carefully with using this.
e.g. The Plot Production Professions simply have a lot of dependencies.

Example: In particular the military professions ...
Military Professions are not really dangerous to change if we do it in the right order.

Summary:

  • We can do a lot with Military Professions
  • We should be careful with other Map Professions (since they have dependencies)
  • We should be careful with Building Production Professions (since they have dependencies)
  • We should be very careful with Plot Production Professions (since they have really a lot of dependencies)
We simply need to check the dependencies and ensure that we take care to unlock in proper order.
Everything that has too many dependencies must be available from the start - so no Social Progress that unlocks it.
 
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One very important question came to my mind: Will this system be able to unlock and lock professions?
Yes and it's very simple to implement. It's mostly implemented already. Just add the following to CvUnit::canHaveProfession

PHP:
    if (!kOwner.canUseProfession(eProfession))
   {
       return false;
   }
I won't do that right now because like all other code changes this requires testing. My point is that it shouldn't be difficult to get up and running. I planned for this when designing CivEffects.

Technically yes, but we should be very very carefully with using this.
e.g. The Plot Production Professions simply have a lot of dependencies.
That goes for everything. We shouldn't give free colonist 1337 movement points even if it is technically simple to do so. Same here. It's technically simple to make professions unlockable. With great xml freedom comes the ability to make xml configurations, which totally ruins the gameplay.
 
I won't do that right now because like all other code changes this requires testing. My point is that it shouldn't be difficult to get up and running. I planned for this when designing CivEffects.
"Social Progress System" is intended to be using your design for CivEffects. :thumbsup:
  • Social Progress System is the Frontend Part the user sees (and that models all dependencies)
  • CivEffects is the Backend Part that is actually technically unlocking and giving all effects
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They both need to be discussed and worked on interatively. :)

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This will become the most challenging and most complex project we ever did. ;)
It can only work properly if all team members and supporters contribute their part to it.
 
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I don't have much to add at this point, other than, I really like the idea :thumbsup:
 
Sounds very interesting! (BTW I also do really like Stellaris! :scan::goodjob:)

Awhile ago I'd been thinking for some time about potential techtree/progress options for M:C and 2071 together with Nightingale; I wrote a few thoughts/comments below.

Investment of Yields for research/progress:

For me, one big point of interest in the techtree system originally made by Kailric for M:C and 2071 was the ability to invest certain Yield types to progress in certain areas of research (though you could also mod some techs that did not require any Yields to research). This adds a lot of strategic interest to mods with large numbers of Yields (like WtP and 2071) where many Yields otherwise become very generic/similar in their role (mainly all shipped and sold to Europe and converted to cash).

In this scenario, it adds a lot of interest/uniqueness if a player wants to make progress in a specific area, and is motivated to acquire and invest some of a specific Yield or Yields to do so. This gets even more interesting if specific techs/progress can provide targeted benefits relating to specific Yields/Terrains/Features/Bonuses, and availability of choices may be partially random as you describe - the player could have to make some really nice decisions considering available options, resources and terrain in the current game situation, and this would add to replayability. Anyway, I'm not sure if that would be necessary for most WtP content but the ability to have some advancements use investment of a Yield would be cool.


SP Points/Categories:

I do like the overall concept of SP categories, but this also raises some design questions to think about:

* If progress relies mostly on getting points in an area that get passively accrued, we'd need to be careful to avoid a self-reinforcing feedback loop for players who may be too easily getting far ahead in that area (e.g. if a player who builds a massive navy also simultaneously acquires free advancements to many naval abilities and construction, the effect on balance could become a runaway feedback loop rather than a good self-balancing mechanism).

* For deeper gameplay, it could add interest to have players make a strategic decision to invest resources in future progress, rather than passively getting further bonuses if you're doing well overall. I.e., in the example above, it's more compelling for the player to have a strategic choice: do I want to focus more on investing to build a massive fleet of ships to overwhelm the enemy with numbers, or instead prioritize using some of those resources to invest in naval advancements, and build a smaller/focused fleet that has some unique tactical and technological advantages?

* Another way to mitigate a runaway feedback loop and provide a good balancing/catchup mechanism would be a bonus to research in a Category based on the progress of other players. (This is also natural/realistic and seen often in similar games due to diffusion of knowledge). Enhancing this bonus for AI players at higher game difficulty levels by applying a Civeffect using handicapinfos.xml would be a nice way to flexibly balance any difficulty there. It could also be interesting to be able further enhance this kind of "shared progress" diffusion via diplomatic agreement, or a Wonder similar to the Library of Alexandria wonder in Civ.

* In your view, would the player be researching/developing one tech/SP at a time, or simultaneously in every one of the 12 categories? The latter option would be more like Stellaris (3 categories simultaneous), but realistically could get confusing for players with 12 categories, and it would be hard to let players choose where to focus their main Research/Knowledge output (they may prefer to focus on one at a time). But in the former option, it likewise might get awkward to have 12 points continuously accruing throughout the game in separate banks and then get "spent" in bursts.

With all that being said, I do see some appealing aspects to getting progress points as you describe (it gives a sense of achievement like FF points do). Maybe there could be some way to integrate progress points while still needing some strategic investments by players. For example, if SP points don't get "spent" like FFPs but instead accrue on a permanent track measuring societal progress in that area. You could then use it as a progress threshold to unlock further advanced options, rather than a currency (i.e. to have more advanced progress options become available in that category, you must have accrued at least XX SP points in that area). You could also consider using progress on the SP points track to apply a discount to the amount of general Knowledge/Research points you need to develop things in that area. Now you have me thinking.. could it even be cool to explore a Social Progress victory as an option? :king:

It is also a very good idea overall to partition techs/progress into several categories/trees (though with 2071 I had not been as ambitious as 12 lol!) This creates further interesting possibilities to have a Trait or Civeffect giving a boost to progress in one specific area. If using a partially random deck, it could also be neat to let a Civeffect boost the number of available options in a certain category (e.g. with a socially visionary leader or advancement, you become able to choose from 2 options in the Society category rather than 1).

Anyway, hope those thoughts are helpful!
I had started on a template awhile back listing some potential interesting gameplay effects that could be applied by techs (most of which could be applied through the Civeffects system), I will see if I can dig that back up. :egypt:
 
For me, one big point of interest in the techtree system originally made by Kailric for M:C and 2071 was the ability to invest certain Yield types to progress in certain areas of research
I want to be able to support this approach even if we might not need it. Colonization 2071 needs it and if development of that one resumes, switching to using the WTP source code is the way to go. While it might not be supported from day one, there should be room in the design to add this feature without too much work.

* If progress relies mostly on getting points in an area that get passively accrued, we'd need to be careful to avoid a self-reinforcing feedback loop for players who may be too easily getting far ahead in that area
That's a very good point.
 
This just became a topic in discord. One idea came up: unlock by year.

If it should be done, add an unlock year to each tech in xml. Then on new turn, loop all techs to see if anything is unlocked. This could possibly be tweaked with randomness as in it could be unlocked during said year, but at a random time during said year or perhaps an interval of a few years. Perhaps there is a chance to unlock it each turn after the trigger condition has been reached and each other player already having said tech would increase the chance of getting it.

I'm not sure how I feel about it from a gameplay point of view, but I think it would be simple to code. We could also make it a game option to pick either unlock year or whatever else we figure out how to use.
 
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