Software Piracy

[Machete Phil]

I need not feel bad for software companies - the quite obviously got a fait share of my money.

This little justification only makes sense if you have purchased games from the same developers you have pirated them from (in some kind of equal measure).

Giving money to some doesn't justify stealing from all the others, is what I'm saying.

I am lucky that CIV runs on my desktop machine (choppiness and all, but it runs). If it had NOT run, i wouldn't have bought it - I would have deleted my "pirated" copy and that would have been it. So talk about "piracy" as an insurance against badly programmed software I cannot run properly anyway. I see not the slightest reason to have a bad conscience here. ABSOLUTELY not.

You can choose to feel however you want, but that doesn't have any impact on the actuality of your actions.

You do not want to use the standard avenues for evaluating upcoming titles -- word of mouth, user reviews, game industry reviews, internet forums, etc. -- then that's your decision, but it certainly doesn't justify theft.

The same argument can be used for any commodity with some kind of aesthetic or qualitative aspect that you can't evaluate until after you have made an important decision.

You can't be sure you're going to like a new dish at a restaurant, for example. That doesn't make it okay to run out on the check if you decide you didn't like how it tasted or if it wasn't prepared well. These are risks you take when ordering a meal at a restaurant.

The same is true for automobiles. You can see it at the lot, and take it for a test drive, but until you put 15,000 miles on it you're not really going to have a feel for how well the car works for you. Does that make it okay to just drive off with one?

I guess the dealer would understand if you explained that you were going to return and pay for it if you really liked it?

Ah, and one more thing: Comparing software "piracy" with theft is rubbish, of yourse. You don't steal anything - you COPY.

Haha. What an absolutely ignorant, egocentric statement.

The same (stupid) logic could be applied to sneaking into movie theatres. You're certainly not stealing anything. Hell, you're not even copying it. I guess that makes it okay? Right. Wrong.

The $50 you pay is not the price of the disc and the manual... you're paying for the rights to install and play the game.

If you do so without paying the proper amount to the proper individuals, you are stealing. Not only that, but when you accept the license agreement upon installation of the game, you are knowingly entering into a contract that you have already violated. This, too, is illegal.

That is, there is no DIRECT damage to anyone

Talk to every developer who has ever been fired from a game studio that was shutting down due to waning sales.

Talk to their families who had to pick up and move across the country to find new work, or sell their homes or worse.

Talk to every venture capitalist who has invested in a game studio which never gets off the ground because it's premier title doesn't sell enough copies.

Talk to every retail outlet like EBGames that have to implement draconian customer service policies just to prevent their stores from being used as a glorified black-market exchange program.

No DIRECT damage to anyone indeed.

Just like yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, right?

 

[bky1701]

Talk to every developer who has ever been fired from a game studio that was shutting down due to waning sales.

Ok, stop RIGHT HERE. Are you trying to ignore that there are other, more influential, factors in low sales? K-Mart is having a bad time… it must be from people pirating Martha Stewart!

Maybe it’s old-man syndrome, but I for one can say game quality (in the fields of game play and interface) has gone significantly DOWN in the last 4 years, with the exception of a small number of games.

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

Ah, Machete Phil, my favourite poster again!

You know, I'm simply not willing to discuss with you as I find your arguments and your style quite lacking. Just one thing to state an example why this is so:

Haha. What an absolutely ignorant, egocentric statement.

The same (stupid) logic could be applied to sneaking into movie theatres. You're certainly not stealing anything. Hell, you're not even copying it. I guess that makes it okay? Right. Wrong.

I happen to have studied law for a while, so as concerning expertise on the topic I guess I'm allowed to pull rank. You, however, seem to indulge in insulting others on the simple grounds of having fun with it. You, Sir, are a troll on the intellectual level of the same. Discussing with you is a waste of time I don't feel inclined to.

 

[bky1701]

One more comment to add-

Look at what Linux accomplished, practically completely donation based, and it’s probably the 2ed most popular PCOS. They not only allow “piracy” as you call it, but tend to support it!

If the companies dropped the greedy-capitalists-impersonating-a-mom-and-pop-store act they would find their piracy problem cut in half.

 

[Machete Phil]

a) There is no "theft" element involved. Media companies of course try to sell it as "thievery", fully knowing they make it up. Repeat: "Piracy" IS NO THEFT.

"Media companies?" What are you talking about? You know, not every game that comes out comes from EA or Microsoft? Some of these developers are actual human beings. Very small groups of them, working very hard for very long hours to produce the content which defines your hobby.

Are you really ignorant enough to believe your piracy has no effect on their efforts? That lost sales don't translate directly into fewer bonuses, pay cuts, layoffs and studio closings?

Listen. Pirate software, fine, but please don't sit here and talk to me about how nobody is hurt by it because the only person you could possibly be fooling is yourself.

Repeat: You're stealing directly from publishers and developers when you pirate games. Your right to install and play the game is granted only on the condition that you have obtained the software through legal channels. If you have not done so, then you are utilizing a service which you have not paid for and this is stealing if I've ever heard of it.

Just because it might not be categorized as "theft" in our particular legal system doesn't mean that you're not taking something that doesn't rightfully belong to you.

That's called a semantic argument (and a very weak one at that).

b) To an extent, "piracy" is the answer to lies of the companies. They lie about what a game would do, lie about on what machines it runs etc. So the answer is to lie about how you legally got the game - until you have proof that their claims hold true. If they do, this is the moment when you are morally required to pay. Fair deal: They keep their promises and so do you. Two sides of a contract.

No such contract exists. You may invent it in order to justify your theft, but it remains your own invention.

Your power to answer the "lies of the companies" lies in your no longer making purchases from them.

Bad service at a restaurant? Moral response = leave and don't come back. Immoral response = steal the food from them.

Buy a book that turns out to be a bore? Moral response = don't buy books from that author anymore. Immoral response = steal books from the book store and make sure you like them before you pay.

There's nothing that makes video games any different from any other good or service. The company is not obliged to please you in any way, and you're certainly not justified in stealing from them just because there's a chance you might not be satisfied.

There ARE losses, of course, but they are much less than what the companies say they are. As if each illegal download would replace one bought original. Ha-ha-ha. I don't really feel like discussing on such a poor intellectual level

Nobody is arguing that every pirated game is a lost sale, but once again that doesn't justify your actions.

You cannot argue that a non-trivial number of people who pirate these games wouldn't buy them if pirating wasn't an option. The sheer fact that they're interested enough in the game to spend the time downloading and evaluating it shows that at least some of them would be making the purchase otherwise.

What's this percentage? 5%? 10%? 20%?

Point is, it doesn't matter. The amount of damage your theft does doesn't make it any more or less moral.

So, to sum it up: I actually LIKE buying games. I LIKE to have a good feeling about it, having printed manuals, a nice box and such (hey, I even like the SMELL of a freshly opened game!). What I HATE are false promises, software that doesn't run on my machine and those &%(O)($ copy protection mechanisms that force me to fiddle around with a disc. In fact, my original copy of CIV sits on the shelf nicely just know - I run the "pirated" copy (I *do* have a license, remember?) all the time. Go figure.

So, to sum up: Your a thief and you're excuses are pretty flimsy.

 

[Machete Phil]

You know, I'm simply not willing to discuss with you as I find your arguments and your style quite lacking. Just one thing to state an example why this is so:

Translation: I can't possible respond intelligently to all of your points which clearly deconstruct my argument step-by-step, so I will take the "moral highground" and refuse to respond to you because you called me a name.

I happen to have studied law for a while

Congratulations!

so as concerning expertise on the topic I guess I'm allowed to pull rank.

Really? I work in the game industry. I experience daily the DIRECT and very damaging affects of piracy at every stage of the production process. I deal with them. Sometimes it's by firing people while they sit on the verge of tears begging for their jobs.

What did you do? Read a textbook one time? Take an Intro. to Law class?

Pull rank my ass.

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

One more comment to add-

Look at what Linux accomplished, practically completely donation based, and it’s probably the 2ed most popular PCOS. They not only allow “piracy” as you call it, but tend to support it!

Ah, well, but Linux has a VERY different approach and thousands of developers who do it for free. Yes, of course there ARE strong reasons for open source and everything associated with it, but the business model with games is different and one has to respect that. In fact, with the intended modability, Firaxis has gone further into that direction than most companies, which I appreciate.

(As a side note: Hmmmm... I wonder how long it takes until someone "mods" the game in a way that he simply takes all those Python and XML files and structures and replaces the GRAPHICS ENGINE instead?)

 

[Machete Phil]

Maybe it’s old-man syndrome, but I for one can say game quality (in the fields of game play and interface) has gone significantly DOWN in the last 4 years, with the exception of a small number of games.

No kidding, dude.

That's my point.

Piracy = less money.

Less money = fire experienced programmers and outsource the work overseas, cut quality assurance and tech support, reduce staff and increase working hours, push for harder deadlines, cut features in favor of earlier releases to recuperate more money, etc., etc.

Guess what all of that adds up to?

LOWER QUALITY GAMES.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

You win.

 

[PiTiFUL]

Talk to every developer who has ever been fired from a game studio that was shutting down due to waning sales.

And you will find a game that is a POS

Talk to every venture capitalist who has invested in a game studio which never gets off the ground because it's premier title doesn't sell enough copies.

And you will find a game that is a POS

Talk to every retail outlet like EBGames that have to implement draconian customer service policies just to prevent their stores from being used as a glorified black-market exchange program.

And you will find a company using any excuse it can to not have to refund money for said POS

I am totally agianst software piracy, but these excuses are BS at best. Based on your 'theory' every game company on the planet should be bankrupt. The fact is if a game doesnt sell it is becuase it is a BAD game, nothing to do with piracy, that is just the cry baby excuse used to shift blame, and we the legit consumer gets shafted with crappy copy protection becuase the cry baby developer told the distributer thier game didnt sell becuase of pirates.

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

Translation:bla bla

 

[BirraImperial]

I live in Costa Rica, where about 80% of all software is illegal. I bought Civilization III and IV from ebay, and sent it to a address in Miami, then to my country. I think game companies are making a huge mistake by setting the prices so high. Every single game takes like 2-4 months to come here, and costs probably about twice as much than in the US due to high taxes. So imagine why piracy levels are so high. In other Latin American countries, over 90% of the sofware is ilegal. I study Software Engineering, so I know how hard it is to design a game or program only to have it stolen by someone else. So my point is that maybe the software industry must set its prices lower, or else piracy will continue to become a problem.

 

[Machete Phil]

Ok, stop RIGHT HERE. Are you trying to ignore that there are other, more influential, factors in low sales? K-Mart is having a bad time… it must be from people pirating Martha Stewart!

Reduced sales have an impact much further reaching than just the fact that they're not getting that $50.00.

It can affect how a publisher views a studio, and whether they will offer them funding for future projects, causing them to severely cut or reduce funding.

It can affect how investors view your company. For independent studios (the ones that aren't just cranking out the next Madden), getting funding from independent investors is crucial, and if your first titles sells 25,000 fewer copies than it should have because it's being whored around every college campus in the country, you can bet that the damage costs them more than just the lost sale...

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

Oh, yes, I guess piracy is the big problem that has led games develop from 1-coder-products to multi-million-dollar works on the level of Hollywood productions. Ah, how beautifil life must be with such a simple model of reality in mind...

 

[Machete Phil]

I am totally agianst software piracy, but these excuses are BS at best. Based on your 'theory' every game company on the planet should be bankrupt. The fact is if a game doesnt sell it is becuase it is a BAD game, nothing to do with piracy, that is just the cry baby excuse used to shift blame, and we the legit consumer gets shafted with crappy copy protection becuase the cry baby developer told the distributer thier game didnt sell becuase of pirates.

Umm, sorry, no. You're very narrow view of the industry is laughable.

Some very bad games sell very well. Some very good games sell very poorly (Beyond Good and Evil comes immediately to mind). Quality != sales, nor are they proportional in any way.

That said, you're dealing with a spectrum.

Companies at the very far end of the spectrum with very high sales are obviously not going to be closed down by piracy. Likewise, very small companies with very low sales are probably going to go out of business.


It's the companies in the middle of the spectrum, the ones making indepedent games (maybe they don't appeal to a very wide market, another factor in sales that has nothing to do with "Quality").

These are the developers and studios which are struggling to establish themselves (so they can make quality games for you in the future).

However, their financial situations are normally delicate enough that any factors swaying them in the direction of becoming unprofitable can be a final nail in the coffin. Publishers look for any excuse they can to yank funding from "unproven" studios. Lackluster sales can be just that excuse and the difference between "good" and "lackluster" can certainly be bridged by priacy.



I mean, by your logic no company that makes good games would have ever gone out of business.

You think that's true?

 

[Machete Phil]

Oh, yes, I guess piracy is the big problem that has led games develop from 1-coder-products to multi-million-dollar works on the level of Hollywood productions. Ah, how beautifil life must be with such a simple model of reality in mind...

Wow, so you really are that ignorant, right?

What percentage of major game studios do you think have the multi-million dollar Hollywood budgets you're yammering about?

Electronic Arts, Rockstar, Microsoft...

Do you even know how many game studios there are in this country? Around the world?

Rest assured they're not all sleeping on piles of cash at night, my friend.


I guess it takes a view as narrow and misinformed as yours to justify theft, though.


...that's like saying it's okay to steal from any bookstore because Barnes & Nobles makes a lot of money.

 

[uniteatteri]

I was temperarily low on funds (spent too much commerce into "beakers" of beer ) when my brother bought his own copy. It felt frustrating to visualize my brother already playing... So I copied a dvd-image from a friend, and bought my own copy a week later, when i got my funds balanced

I'm not saying what I did was right (or wrong). I just took a week long "virtual loan" from the copyright holders. My self-respect is relatively clean.

Naturally it's wrong to gain (or let others gain) from pirating, was it either financial or mental (free enjoying ).

 

[Arkalius]

I'd imagine the biggest consumer of pirated games and software are teenagers who can't afford to buy games and whose parents won't buy them for them... I'm not ashamed to admit I fell into that category. Back in my teenage days pirating games was not that tough... Why waste the few dollars you have and why bug the parents when you can get it for free and not have to worry about reprocussions?

I'm not advocating it by any means, but these teenagers are at virtually no risk for any legal ramifications, and no one they'll ever meet is going to care or judge them... It's a relatively easy crime to perpetrate that has no obvious negative consequences, and plenty of positive ones from the pirater's point of view. You'd have a hard time finding teenagers who like video games that would experience any real ethical dilemma in that situation. Heck... it's not easy to find an adult that would too.

 

[warpus]

Just because it might not be categorized as "theft" in our particular legal system doesn't mean that you're not taking something that doesn't rightfully belong to you

it's copyright infringement, so why not call it exactly what it is?

stealing would be if somebody took a civ4 box off the shelf in a store and ran off without paying for it. that's theft.

when you download a copy of civ4 from your friend and you install it, you are infringing a copyright.

there is a difference. why not use the proper terminology?

 

[PiTiFUL]

Umm, sorry, no. You're very narrow view of the industry is laughable.

Funny I find you lack of reality laughable.

Some very bad games sell very well. Some very good games sell very poorly (Beyond Good and Evil comes immediately to mind). Quality != sales, nor are they proportional in any way.

My bad for not being clear here, I am not just talking about the actual coding\GFX ect of the game, if a game is just plain not desirable it doesnt matter how well it is made.

It's the companies in the middle of the spectrum, the ones making indepedent games (maybe they don't appeal to a very wide market, another factor in sales that has nothing to do with "Quality").

And your point is? This is just a plain fact of life, if you have a product that doesnt sell well you go out of business, thats life, happens everywhere, only the software industry falls back on 'its the pirates fualt' when in fact the real problem is 'you did not create a product the public wants' I bet every other industry looks at software devs with envy, damn wish we could use that excuse.

These are the developers and studios which are struggling to establish themselves (so they can make quality games for you in the future).

Nothing to do with piracy, it is just a fact of life, making video games now requires a huge investment, so only the big players are still in the game. Only way a small dev can get in the game is to 'think outside the box' and hope the masses buy it. Frankly at this point the only way to get in at the ground floor would be to 'freeware' your game, build a consumer base, then go for the money.

I mean, by your logic no company that makes good games would have ever gone out of business.

You think that's true?

No, becuase there are a thousand other reasons for a company to go under, bad accouting, poor spending habits. bad PR ect. All that aside, then yes, a company that makes good popular games will never go out of business.
The fact of the matter is 'piracy' is an excuse not a cuase, but hey that seems to be the way of things these days. It is always somebody elses fault, nobody takes responsability anymore, just pass the buck.

Do not get me wrong here, I am in no way whatsoever defending piracy. I am however placing the blame where it belongs. I am a very frustrated end user who is fed up with having to deal with the crap involved with copy protection becuase of the 'excuse' that piracy is the reason some games do not sell enough to stay in business. The reason thoses games did not sell is becuase not enough people wanted them, period.

 

[Goombaz]

EDIT: I decided to retract my questions as I hadn't read thouroghly enough and Machete Phil had already answered them. My bad, have a good day