Software Piracy

[Siggy19]

In fact for small companies exactly the opposite is true.

The initial months after release are much less important, because your game needs to build hype among the players, fans, and critics before you can expect to see an increase in sales.

Unfortunately, when this hype does start to build and more and more people learn about your game -- just when sales might start to rise -- that's usually when it gets pirated and hits the P2P networks like a wildfire.

This is also a problem due to limited distribution I suspect, although this will hopefully be alleviated with more downloading of legal copies.

Currently, if you want the game today, you generally need to find it in a brick and mortar store. Since these tend to have limited selections, a three month old game from a small developer is unlikely to be in stock, especially if there is a run on it due to local buzz - the restocking process might easily not keep up.

I suspect that companies that do legal downloads like Direct2Disk may not have bothered with the game either.

The result is that, to get it ASAP, P-2-P becomes the only source.

If all games went through D2D or something similar, this would not be such a problem.

The flip side of this argument is that the rampant piracy MIGHT be what gets the game the buzz. No piracy = no buzz = no-one trying to buy the game legally, failing and pirating it !

If that is the case, some sort of pay to play for the first 10 games might work better... it's cheap to try so it gets the chance to develop the buzz.

As always... I was right all along (despite what my wife says - of course, my argument with her is that if she's so darned smart, why'd she marry an idiot like me !)

 

[Sorceresss]

I think his post is rather self explanatory ... he doesn't need to post to read what you have to sat and how you have responded to others to draw a conclusion from it.

Understood.

 

[Efexeye]

Understood.

Come on, what does that add to the discussion, except to provoke flaming?

The answer is.......NOTHING!

dingdingding!

Ah well, another person to ignore, I guess.

 

[Eagle_Seven]

Nor does the above post (or this post) add anything to the conversation, but flamebait.

 

[Efexeye]

Nor does the above post (or this post) add anything to the conversation, but flamebait.

Yeah, you're right. Still, passive aggressiveness bugs me, so I had to say something. My bad, I'm just strained from exerting so much restraint in this thread...

 

[Sorceresss]

I'm just strained from exerting so much restraint in this thread...

Praise the Lord we have disciplined & tireless posters like you around.

 

[Efexeye]

Praise the Lord we have disciplined & tireless posters like you around.

More passive aggressiveness!

I gave it a chance, but, okay, since you also are only interested in trolling/flaming, I will be ignoring you, now, too.

Anyone want to talk about the thread topic?

 

[GermanRuler]

were, may I ask, is Barbados?

 

[Cyberstar]

Here's a bit of interesting news from CNN (article below). It seems that the WTO has given the poorest nations permission to continue pirating intelectual goods for another 7 years. At least that's how I understand the article. So the right hand of the law says "pirating goods is illegal", but the left hand of the law says "go ahead and do it for now".

I happen to live in one of the countries listed. Only MSN will sell me online music. Hooray for Microsoft! There is not one piece of legal digital intellectual property available for sale in the entire country.

Wednesday, November 30, 2005 Posted: 0611 GMT (1411 HKT)
(CNN) -- The world's poorest
countries have been given an
extension until 2013 to follow rules
covering protection of trademarks,
copyright and other intellectual
property.
The World Trade Organization (WTO) agreed
on Tuesday to extend the transition period for
least-developed countries by seven and a half
years to July 2013.
The transition period was to have expired on
January 1, 2006, 11 years after an agreement
known as TRIPS (trade-related aspects of
intellectual property rights) came into force.
Meeting in Geneva, the WTO's TRIPS council
agreed the world's poorest countries would not
have to protect intellectual property rights until
July 2013 unless they graduated beforehand
from being in the "least-developed" category.
WTO Director-General Pascal Lamy said the
agreement gave poor countries the flexibility
they needed to meet their WTO obligations.
"This demonstrates what can be achieved in
Hong Kong, where development is a central
issue," he said.
The WTO will hold a ministerial meeting in
Hong Kong from December 13-18.
There are 32 WTO member countries
designated as least-developed by the United
Nations.
They are primarily countries in Africa such as
Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia and Angola, along
with parts of Asia (Bangladesh, Cambodia,
Myanmar, Nepal, Maldives) Central America
and the Pacific.
Protection of intellectual property rights has
become a key issue for the world's creative
industries, including books, film and television,
fashion, design and computer software.
Piracy of brand-name goods such as watches
and handbags, and DVD knock-offs of new
movies and computer games has become an
irritant, for example, in trade relations between
the United States and China.
The WTO said in a statement that the decision
Lamy said the agreement gave poor
countries flexibility in meeting WTO
obligations.
"This demonstrates what can be achieved in
Hong Kong, where development is a central
issue," he said.
The WTO will hold a ministerial meeting in
Hong Kong from December 13-18.
There are 32 WTO member countries
designated as least-developed by the United
Nations.
They are primarily countries in Africa such as
Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia and Angola, along
with parts of Asia (Bangladesh, Cambodia,
Myanmar, Nepal, Maldives) Central America
and the Pacific.
Protection of intellectual property rights has
become a key issue for the world's creative
industries, including books, film and television,
fashion, design and computer software.
Piracy of brand-name goods such as watches
and handbags, and DVD knock-offs of new
movies and computer games has become an
irritant, for example, in trade relations between
the United States and China.
The WTO said in a statement that the decision
by its TRIPS council in Geneva would not
affect the transition period for pharmaceutical
patents. Least-developed countries will not
have to protect these patents until 2016.
Poor countries are able to use a waiver on
pharmaceutical patents that was agreed in
August 2003, allowing them to import cheaper
generic copies of blockbuster medicines from
low-cost makers such as India, rather than
more expensive brand-name drugs from U.S., European and Japanese makers.
But this waiver has yet to be written into the TRIPS agreement.

 

[Efexeye]

were, may I ask, is Barbados?

It's in the Caribbean.

 

[spankey]

Therefore, I feel no remorse regarding individual piracy with their products.

On the other hand, I'll be more than happy to shell out $50 for a independent, well-made product. That is the type of company I hope will prosper.

Independent well-made games made by commercial enterprises will become fewer and fewer because of a lack of "remorse" over pirating. If the money is getting sucked out of PC gaming by piracy, why would venture capitalists invest money into this business. I would not fund an independent company with hopes of launching an expensive and innovative product into this business climate. Why bother, the profit for the venture will be syphoned away by people who feel they are entitled to free stuff.

 

[LAnkou]

Ok my first post in this thread, but all the pages to read were very long...

first, the reason of piracy:

1) price: the game/DVD or whatever you want's price is too high for the consumer
a) because consume can't afford it (i'm gonna tell about the "afford computer->affor game" later)
b) the consumer doesn't value the product the price it is sold

case b is the average joe with average wages in western country that don't want to pay 50 bucks for a game cause a game shouldn't be 50 bucks, it implies people who wouldn't buy the game at all and people who would buy the game if it were cheaper...

2) convenience
it's the average joe that download it so they can play the game without putting the CD in the driver

3) pre-playing
Joe bought the game on e-bay but he will be delivered in two weeks, so he download it to play it the two weeks before

4) testing
Joe is interrested by the game, but he doesn't know if a) the game is good, b) it runs on his machine

5) selling
Joe copy the game and sell it to his friend (and eventually, he buy the original one)

6) availability
you live somewhere where it isn't sold
This is my case for one thing: animes and book of Mangas. I download mangas that are subtitled by fans and are not available in France. This is something that is tolerate as long as there is no copyright in France and as soon as the manga get copyrighted, people stop to propose it. Another thing tolerated is to propose book or animes that are not sold yet by editors in France with some margin (say the editors release until volume 17, it is tolerate to propose and download from volume 20)
7) easy
Beyond it doesn't cost anything, you do it easily and are caught with great difficulties

I think we all agree that 5 is trully illegal and stay illegal, i think that 2,3,4 and maybe 6 are tolerable
7 is why it is so widespread...

the main discussion were about 1:
people who don't pay for games cause they prefer it for nothing should be punished, and are "true" pirates...people pirating and who would pay for it if it were cheaper are the true "problem" and the thing that leads to a lot of question...

Why is the price of game the same everywhere (almost the same, i believe that the game is more expensive in EU)?
Why don't companies sell the game at a price it can be afforded in countries A or B?

because if it was this way just imagine:
UK/US: 50 bucks
India: 10 bucks
add shipping and taxes I'm quite sure you won't go to 50...

how many people would buy an indian copy via the net? a lot

specifically with civIV, you can play in French, german, spanish and Italian with US/UK version: German, french, spanish and italian market would do the same thing (maybe in a smaller amount) than UK and US would...

just look at the way it goes with cigarettes: In France, it is very expensive 5€ for 20 Marlboro, people living near other countries just pass the border line, get some cigarettes, and go back home (they get some Gaz, alcohol and other things too, but that's another story). With games and the internet, you can order it in a far away country and get it almost everywhere...

Conclusion: Piracy? good or bad?
I'm not so sure that companies lose so much money (actually they don't lose it, it's just that they don't earn more money), but it is definitely harmfull since they would earn more if they were no piracy.
Would they earn more money if they lower the price? i'm not so sure too, how many pirates would buy the games if it were cheaper? some but not so many i think

Something interresting is that, in France, some bookshop like Fnac or Virgin Megastore lets you read in the shop: so i read the book, put it back in the shelves and i go home without paying anything. This is particulary true with japanese mangas. If some Virgin people told me that i can't read the mangas, there would be a lot of mangas that i wouldn't had bought. But there are still some that i've readen all volumes and never bought. It is exactly the same as piracy, Fnac and editors gain more money with this system, but i think the money involved (a book is cheaper than a game, the developpement of a game is more expensive than the writing, drawing of a manga) change the draw comparing to Games company

Piracy is illegal, but should it be fighted or tolerated? i think it should be tolerated

by the way, some question about copyright infringement (or whatever you called it):

If i have a copy of CivIV installed on two different machine (say mine and my brother's) would it be illegal to play alternatively? I play on mine, when i have finished my brother play on his...no MP, no download, no parrallel use we play alternatively, never in the same time
I ask this cause it's obvious that if it is installed on one computer it's legal but for convenience reason if (i say "if" cause my brother doesn't like civ, pesky little brother that don't know what is good), it would be installed on both

 

[Efexeye]

Independent well-made games made by commercial enterprises will become fewer and fewer because of a lack of "remorse" over pirating. If the money is getting sucked out of PC gaming by piracy, why would venture capitalists invest money into this business. I would not fund an independent company with hopes of launching an expensive and innovative product into this business climate. Why bother, the profit for the venture will be syphoned away by people who feel they are entitled to free stuff.

I think people justify ripping off corporations because they can't see how it hurts other consumers. If a game company makes less money because people that pirate the game don't buy it, unless they charge legitimate customers more to cover their losses, won't their ability to make better games be hamstrung? Either way, as a non=pirating, paying customer, I lose; because my game costs more or because the next release doesn't have the same budget as the current one did, due to lousy sales.

I think you touched on something with the "lack of remorse" thing. Justifying piracy to oneself as "no big deal" for whatever reason, is pretty easy to do.

 

[Efexeye]

Quote edited to be more succint:

first, the reason of piracy:

1) price: the game/DVD or whatever you want's price is too high for the consumer
a) because consume can't afford it (i'm gonna tell about the "afford computer->affor game" later)
b) the consumer doesn't value the product the price it is sold

2) convenience
it's the average joe that download it so they can play the game without putting the CD in the driver

3) pre-playing
Joe bought the game on e-bay but he will be delivered in two weeks, so he download it to play it the two weeks before

4) testing
Joe is interrested by the game, but he doesn't know if a) the game is good, b) it runs on his machine

5) selling
Joe copy the game and sell it to his friend (and eventually, he buy the original one)

6) availability
you live somewhere where it isn't sold

7) easy
I think we all agree that 5 is trully illegal and stay illegal, i think that 2,3,4 and maybe 6 are tolerable
7 is why it is so widespread...

1. If you can't afford something tangible, or think it's not a good value, you won't buy it. However, with digital media, there is a second option- to steal it. The nature of the product leads to this moral ambiguity.

2. Arguably, that's not so bad, however, what would stop you from putting the game on 10 computers and then downloading no-cd cracks? You and your 9 friends are essentially getting the game for 5 bucks and change each at that point.

3. Too bad! Joe can go to a brick-and-mortar store, or he can go play outside until cIV gets to his house.

4. There are multiple resources for finding out if a game is good without installing and playing it. This forum is one very prescient example. As for technical issues...I think that should be handled as any piece of defective merchandise. You should get your money back if it's defective. However, retailers have no way of knowing if your computer is just a POS that can't run the game properly, so they err on the side of caution.

5. DEFINITELY illegal. Textbook definition of piracy.

6. Again, tough luck. Sometimes life's rough, you know? (glib, I know, but that's what I think!)

7. This IS the main reason why people who would never steal something out of a store will download or illegally copy software. It is digustingly easy to do, and no one is going to get caught. It goes back to the tangibility of the product.

EDIT: As far as you and your brother....that is a bit hazy, aty least to me. It seems to be okay from a moral standpoint, but from a technical standpoint, it's probably not okay.

Unless you de-install it on one and re-install it on the other every single time.

 

[spankey]

Here is a question for all really hard-core gamers, especially ones who download games/pirate them--
Have you seen the quality of PC games increase over the past several years as piracy has increased? I realize that correlation does not equal causation but I am curious as to people's experience.

I am 35 years old and have only played the civilization series since college. I do not have extensive gaming experience. What is your feedback?

 

[LAnkou]

1. If you can't afford something tangible, or think it's not a good value, you won't buy it. However, with digital media, there is a second option- to steal it. The nature of the product leads to this moral ambiguity.

2. Arguably, that's not so bad, however, what would stop you from putting the game on 10 computers and then downloading no-cd cracks? You and your 9 friends are essentially getting the game for 5 bucks and change each at that point.

3. Too bad! Joe can go to a brick-and-mortar store, or he can go play outside until cIV gets to his house.

4. There are multiple resources for finding out if a game is good without installing and playing it. This forum is one very prescient example. As for technical issues...I think that should be handled as any piece of defective merchandise. You should get your money back if it's defective. However, retailers have no way of knowing if your computer is just a POS that can't run the game properly, so they err on the side of caution.

5. DEFINITELY illegal. Textbook definition of piracy.

6. Again, tough luck. Sometimes life's rough, you know? (glib, I know, but that's what I think!)

7. This IS the main reason why people who would never steal something out of a store will download or illegally copy software. It is digustingly easy to do, and no one is going to get caught. It goes back to the tangibility of the product.

EDIT: As far as you and your brother....that is a bit hazy, aty least to me. It seems to be okay from a moral standpoint, but from a technical standpoint, it's probably not okay.

Unless you de-install it on one and re-install it on the other every single time.

1) well, even if you call it stealing in all of your post, it still is copyright infringement (or whatever it spelled). but my point wasn't to say if it is right or not, that's still illegal. I just tried to explain why it happends

2) you missed my point, i spoke about 1 guy on one PC. what you say refers to my point number 1

3) you are cynical, and Joe still make something illegal, but i just think that's something that can be tolerated. Again, i didn't say it was a good excuse, but it was a reason why there is piracy

4)well, games can't be unselled once they had been uncealed (at least in most shop in France), so you buy 50 bucks for something that doesn't work on your PC and can't have your money back? Again, i didn't say it was a good excuse, but it was a reason why there is piracy

5) we agree, good

6) i don't like the way you think. It seems life hadn't been so rough with you...(and for that i'm glad for you). When there is unfairness in the world, do you prefer to correct it or just say things like "tough luck. Sometimes life's rough, you know?"

7) are you trying to explain me what i wrote?

EDIT: hopefully, my brother doesn't play civIV!!!

 

[MattJek]

More passive aggressiveness!

I gave it a chance, but, okay, since you also are only interested in trolling/flaming, I will be ignoring you, now, too.

Anyone want to talk about the thread topic?

Good move! How about you ignore everyone too... meaning that you get of your pulpit and stop preaching rubish

 

[Sorceresss]

How about you [=Efexeye] ignore everyone too... meaning that you get of[f] your pulpit and stop preaching rubish

You are being somewhat harsh, fellow Canadian.

He has made an awesome contribution to Law & Order, on this thread, with his relentless "bad cop" routine.

Too bad he won't be able to read this compliment : I'm already on his ignore-list.

 

[MattJek]

You are being somewhat harsh, fellow Canadian.

He has made an awesome contribution to Law & Order, on this thread, with his relentless "bad cop" routine.

Too bad he won't be able to read this compliment : I'm already on his ignore-list.

Lol, he actually sent me a threatning PM

 

[spankey]

Good move! How about you ignore everyone too... meaning that you get of your pulpit and stop preaching rubish

I am curious as to your position Mattjek (and Sorceress). Is it that intellectual property has no right to be protected? forgive me for not going back through this whole thread. Do you think that piracy be tolerated because everyone is doing it and it is easy?

Just because everyone is doing it does not make it a good thing. An extreme (and harsh to paint a picture) example would be that everyone (actually lots) of Hutu's opinions tipped toward genocide against the Tutsi's in Rwanda. It didn't make it right morally or legally.