Solo vs. the Barbarians

[shivute]

Try the Green mod, the barbarians have chariots, they really are b***ards! Once you can survive these the raging barbs on vanilla are quite easy to cope with.

Mansu is the best against barbs, the skirmisher kicks butt.
Fortify your city with 2 of these guys, as you build more fortify them on hills or even better on forest hills, always in pairs. This should allow you to at least mine the hills. - Stay off the plains and grasslands, your units will die.

Starting with a sea resource is also beneficial as the barbs don't have boats for a while. Also you can use the sea to found new cities more safely.

I find that barbs concentrate more on your staring city and if you build a distance away (via the coast) they tend to ignore it for a while.

 

[Older than Dirt]

I can't believe the barbarians didn't get axmen until 920 A.D., Chandrasekhar. I started a game last night on Prince, Normal speed, and on Fractual. By 1200 B.C. there were axemen appearing. Fortunately even by 200 B.C. they are still mostly warriors and about 2/3 of them are comming like ants in a line across an isthmus which I must soon seal off. Just protecting the improvements is difficult, let alone expanding. I checked in World Builder and the Barbarians have a size 1 and size 2 city on a large island (or small continent) but none on my big continent. This would be a whole lot easier if promotions against barbarians would go beyound 10 XPs. You gotta be a masochist to play this on Marathon speed!

 

[Akaoz]

Heh, this sounds like fun...

 

[The Tyrant]

Okay, I haven't played Weltenbrand's map yet (saving that for a proper go this weekend), but I did playtest an exploit I thought of -- Tech Denial. This exploit will only work in a solo vs. barbs game. In a normal game, having even one non-barb AI will make Tech Denial impossible. I had read that barbarians can only discover techs that another civ has already discovered. So I'm thinking to myself "You mean, if I don't research Bronze Working...." Hehe... It worked, but I'm not exactly sure it worked in a good way.

I had an inland start on a small pangea, Deity, Marathon, solo vs. raging barbs. I researched only techs that did not grant the ability to create a new unit type. I figured the barbs would be stuck with warriors. They started zeroing in on my capital very quickly, coming with warriors and archers. Archers? I didn't research archery. They never did develop any other unit types, though. It must be true that they can only discover techs that have already been researched. As for the archers, maybe barbs get archers as default, or maybe they are allowed to discover one military tech that hasn't been researched? I'll have to test that at a later date.

There was an interesting side effect to this tech denial exploit. The barbs never founded a single city. Not one. Very late in the game I reached a point where the barbs suddenly stopped arriving. They had been attacking me in groups of three to five every turn for thousands of years. Then suddenly nothing (this was around 1600 AD). I opened up WorldBuilder and saw that the only barb left was squatting on the only un-popped hut on the map. That was when I saw that there were exactly ZERO barbarian cities.

It seems that the barbs require a certain tech before they can found cities. I'm not sure, but I have a suspicion that the required tech may be BW. That way, in a normal game, when someone discovers BW, the barbs get to settle down and start researching on their own. I'll do some tests later to find out exactly which tech allows them to found cities.

The end result of Tech Denial is that it worked. For thousands of years the barbs attacked me with only warriors and archers. The bad part was that they never founded cities. They were attacking me in a steady stream every turn, which made improving the capital and trying to expand practically impossible. You *want* the barbs to settle down and found cities at some point. The rate of barbs slows down at that point and approach routes become more predictable. So, Tech Denial works, but I'm not sure if I like the way it works.

 

[naterator]

I can't believe the barbarians didn't get axmen until 920 A.D., Chandrasekhar

i think someone (in this case, i'd have to be you) has to research a tech before the barbs can get it. so if you hold off on bronzeworking until you think you have enough archers to stop the first wave, maybe that'd help. mansa or huayna seem to enjoy an edge when it really matters most. this kind of madness seems right up my alley.
edit--oops, thats what he said ^, and i guess it has it's downside.

 

[Flak]

Well I just won a game with a Conquest victory.

Conditions:

1. Large Islands
2. Diety
3. Huge Map
4. Epic
5. Only winning conditions are Cultural, Domination and Conquest.
6. Raging barbarians, aggressive AI.

I won the game in 550 BC.

Unfortunately, I've thinked I've revealed a bug. What I did was go ahead an start off exploring. I was tentative at first but I quickly realized there were no barbarians around. The barbarians apparently don't show up at all until someone makes a city. This little fact surprised me. So I explored my entire island, popped all of the huts for gold and a couple of scouts, and picked a nice spot for my starting city. I then founded my city. At the end of the turn, I was informed that I had won a Conquest victory!

If anybody is interested, I'll attach the save-game. All you have to do for the win is found your city and that's it.

 

[Flak]

On another note. I've been playing another game with the basically the same conditions (changed the island distribution a bit), only with Conquest victory turned off. I've done alright and it looks like I'm headed fairly casually for a Culture victory, but I'm going to start another game with some slight mods: Unlimited experience points from fighting barbarians, Units retain their experience points after upgrade. I'm curious about how high I can get some of units promoted and I think it will make things a bit more interesting when fighting the wave-after-wave sessions where the barbs just throw themselves at you.

The key seems to be starting position. If you can find a spot that's kind of out of the way, and on the coast, you should do alright. Once I got some cities on islands off by themselves, I was really in a position to put pressure back onto the barbs without really risking anything myself.

Another thing, Bronze working is not the tech that allows the barbs to build cities. I don't know what the tech is (or if that even matters), but I definitely had two barb cities founded close by to my starting city and didn't get bronze until centuries later (holding off because of what I had read in this thread and also because I was afraid of what they would do to me if/when they got axemen). I don't know how the barbs acquire tech, but I do know that they were always close behind me in tech, and only seemed to catch up when I attacked one of their units, although I'm not totally certain of that correlation either.

If anybody wants to see the Culture Win, give me a bit on that. I'd like to play it closer to its inevitable conclusion and I'm probably not going to do that until I see how my barb-experience mod works out.

 

[The Tyrant]

For solo vs. barbs you have to turn off the conquest victory condition or you'll get that every time. The computer checks to see if any other AI (besides barbs) exist, and if not, then you win by conquest.

There is a lag time from the beginning of the game until the barbarians start showing up. If the islands you were exploring were fairly small, it might have been coincidence that they showed up soon after you founded your city. If you had to explore for a long time, then that's interesting. I'll have to try that out, also. Seems I'm racking up things to test about barbarians.

Now I'm curious as to which tech allows them to found cities. I know that once barbs have cities, they research just the same as other civs do. I've sent spies to barb cities before and opened up the city screen. It showed them researching, and I was able to follow their research progression turn by turn. That is only after they found cities, though. There has to be a trigger that allows them to found cities in the first place. Gotta find out what that trigger is.

 

[`DG`]

sounds like a fun game, maybe best as a scenario? basically to give the first city a headstart and to ensure essential resources?

I'm trying (and failing) to be less of a pacifist so would be good training too.

 

[naterator]

sounds like a fun game, maybe best as a scenario? basically to give the first city a headstart and to ensure essential resources?

not entirely necessary. i find that resources are essentially inaccessible unless you leave several troops on them, and you won't generally have the resources to do so, . i was playing huge-marathon-pangea-diety as mansa musa (skirmishers are a godsend), and i held my own, maybe could've finished it before inflation eventually crippled my economy sometime way past 2050 (i only left domination checked), but i lack the patience.

The barbarians apparently don't show up at all until someone makes a city. This little fact surprised me. So I explored my entire island, popped all of the huts for gold and a couple of scouts, and picked a nice spot for my starting city

this is solid gold! i just restarted my mansa game and explored the whole huge pangea ended up with about 1000 gold and a bucketfull of scouts and warriors, founded my city in 2100bc with a sweet peninsula blocked off for settlement + easy defense.

 

[balthamael]

...But if you tried that on a real game, you would be doomed. Maybe on a MP, arrange it so there are no barbs.

 

[naterator]

...But if you tried that on a real game, you would be doomed

oh, definitly... very little learned here is applicable to any other games. i'm just facinated by what we've learned and have yet to learn regarding barbarians. i mean, tech denial is kinda funny, but existance denial?

 

[The Tyrant]

i'm just facinated by what we've learned and have yet to learn regarding barbarians. i mean, tech denial is kinda funny, but existance denial?

Agh! Don't do that! LOL! I'm at work and the customers get really worried when I look at the computer screen and bust up laughing.

 

[Charles 22]

I know it satisfies a bit of curiousity to get into these weird strategies about not founding your city until the cows come home, but I just hate when people do that sort of thing. It destroys the essence of the idea. The idea wasn't to make it easy on yourself through some peculiar quirk, but to actually play the game as if there were some other civs out there.

Weirder still would be to do this with 18 civs (too many), but while we might not get attacked, we sure would fall way behind. Come to think of it too, the thing I was thinking of actually involved other civs, but in the fewest possible numbers (though only one other civ would probably be too few). Unless I miss my guess having other civs would endanger the goody-hunter-no-founding-city fluke.

 

[Flak]

I know it satisfies a bit of curiousity to get into these weird strategies about not founding your city until the cows come home, but I just hate when people do that sort of thing. It destroys the essence of the idea. The idea wasn't to make it easy on yourself through some peculiar quirk, but to actually play the game as if there were some other civs out there.

Weirder still would be to do this with 18 civs (too many), but while we might not get attacked, we sure would fall way behind. Come to think of it too, the thing I was thinking of actually involved other civs, but in the fewest possible numbers (though only one other civ would probably be too few). Unless I miss my guess having other civs would endanger the goody-hunter-no-founding-city fluke.

I wouldn't take this too seriously. It's just a few of us exploring some of the oddities of the game by trying a bunch of weird things and seeing how it works out. Also, the barbarians will start appearing the instant any AI or human player puts a city down.

One interesting mod might be to not allow any civ to put a city down until the human player does. So everybody would be exploring and finding their niche. Heck you might even have some battles if enough warriors are popped out of huts. A few civs might be taken out 'early', early as in before they even could put a city down. The human founds their first city and the game goes on from there. I'd probably go ahead and allow respawning of civs taken out before the cities start.... Something to think about....

I've actually played some Diety games, 18 civs, Raging Barbians, huge map. The barbarians get taken out pretty quickly because the land is colonized so fast. They just don't have any unexplored foggy territory to spawn from. Even with raging barbarians, they just don't make much of a difference.

There is a setting in the XML code that sets the default barbarian's skill level. It's set at Chieftan right now. If I understand this setting correctly, it will influence how strong the barbarians play. I think I will set this at Diety and try another couple of solo games this weekend. See what difference it makes.

 

[Blazer6]

You can change barbarian advantages against player and AI from the handicapinfo. The AI has trouble fighting them at the 0 setting though.

 

[weltenbrand]

Ok, I tried it again with the following settings:

- Montezuma
- pangea, solid borders, "average" climate, large, deity
- inland start on a river
- No bronceworking researched until around 1400 AD
- Had a big surprice

I choosed the solid borders to not have some small islands or easy areas to block like in my first game with domination victory (posted 4000 BC save on page two).
I choosed an inland start to not use sea tiles at the begining. I wanted a river to conect citys without roads.
"average" climate to have less jungle. In my first game it was tropical and I had the feeling that there where not much barbcitys in the jungle.

Everything went well. No axeman, no swords, just warriors and archers. I killed around 800 archers, 700 warriors and had allready 8 citys. I started send out workers. Somewhere around 1400AD I had to research bronceworking and find copper asap, because the barbs had:

Horse archers!!! Two movement units!!!

I really dont like the pillage sound. It took me until 1700 to find the horse city. Can you imagin how much money you have to spend to send out a stack for I-dont-know- how-much turns to find the horses? I killed around 200 horses
Finaly I took the city and now (not finished) the archers are back.
I never saw barbhorses before or chariots. Its nice to know that it can happen.

Good luck!

weltenbrand

 

[Older than Dirt]

Barbarians can certainly research techs, at least those which do not give the abililty to build military units, first. I had them beat me to Theology and a couple of others. I kept researching military techs and as a result they were only about 10 techs behind me, if that, before I got to future tech 1.

 

[naterator]

the thing I was thinking of actually involved other civs, but in the fewest possible numbers (though only one other civ would probably be too few). Unless I miss my guess having other civs would endanger the goody-hunter-no-founding-city fluke.

i actually tried this with one other civ (sacrificing my beloved fluke), and they did a heck of alot better than me. their diety bonuses made short work of the barbarians. maybe try on noble and see what happens with an even playing field? i'd miss those neverending streams of axemen though, fireants was a great analogy!

 

[Older than Dirt]

I replayed a solo vs. barbarian game. The barbarians were allowed through my munificence to grow large cities, i.e. 11 to 15. They never built chariots. Again, the most advanced units were grenadier and riflemen although they had the techs. They never built a siege weapon. They had 3 or 4 trade routes per city. They built airports and nuclear power plants. They even can have unhappiness due to overcrowding. They utilize engineer specialists. Great People just are wasted (never appear although they get enough points). In 2050 A.D. they were researching at 30%, culturizing at 10%, and commercializing at 60%. Every time I got a tech they soon be getting another. When they first begin to research they'd have at least 50% done the first turn, and a higher percentage the later the game dragged on. They must be geared to discover tech's at a percentage of the sole human player and I guess one of the AI's or human player in normal games. They must have Winston Churchill as their leader, because they "never give up."