Solution for faster game, more civ's, bigger maps

[Arakhor]

Vokarya added Storytellers and so on to spruce up the Ancient Era and make it more interesting, but I haven't played any Civ IV in quite a while, so I'm probably forgetting some things.

 

[pepper2000]

I don't think it is an excess of buildings and techs per se that cause the problems. The space colonization modmod adds about 500 new buildings and 45 new techs, and it had no noticeable impact on speed.

However, some serious consolidation of buildings is needed if the Industrial Era and later are to be fully playable. We can't know until it's done, but I predict that aggressive building consolidation will solve a lot of problems. I still intend to do that. There's also the matter of the overly elaborate build chains in the Transhuman Era.

 

[<Nexus>]

Sogroon, don't use the longer game speeds to play C2C, nor the GEM type maps. And don't use REV it's still too much like the broken version from RoM v2.92. Large map with default AI # on Epic will give you a good game with out really long turn times at End of Turn wait in the later Eras. But don't expect to reach an Era past Modern If you are playing Mastery or Conquest Victory settings and with out much patience and restraint from killing off your rivals.

That's (one thing) why I don't play C2C. But most games don't get past even the classical or medieval eras

I wish Mastery Victory had never been introduced by Afforess and then picked up by the C2C Modders. It's fine for regular BtS Game speeds but not for longer running Mods like AND and especially C2C imhpo.

I don't like mastery either. I set my games for conquest/tech/spaceship.

But hey you still like AND in it's current state and I can't stand to play it any more. Especially after they ripped out what I had put in years ago. Jungle camps are a farce now. And is there even a stripped down, gutted version of JC in AND now? And is the Ancient era still as dry as a bone for play and flavor?
JosEPh

After months I still don't understand what's your problem
JC is a very good improvement in AND. I build it on 90% of jungle covered plots.

 

[JosEPh_II]

No you wouldn't understand. As it turned into a personal thing between Aforress and myself. At my age I don't put up with youthful arrogance very well or disrespect.

When I left JC was a shell of it's self. And that it's still in AND in any form is a surprise to me. But JC was just 1 thing out of many.

Is AND still as dry as a bone in the Ancient era? No real flavor and not much to do either as you can't build much, grow much, just build so many mil units to fight?

I will say this, I still have much respect and admiration for 45*. If I ever play AND again it will be because of his efforts to keep it a viable Mod.

JosEPh

 

[<Nexus>]

I get it, but a personal difference with the producer won't make his product bad. I really understand (now). Resentment can make someone hate everything that is connected to his offender.
Still I say it is a great mod.

Is AND still as dry as a bone in the Ancient era? No real flavor and not much to do either as you can't build much, grow much, just build so many mil units to fight?

It's a little (a lot) better than BTS imo, but I agree that it can use a little more flavor. That why I made my on modmods. Chronicles: In the Beginning takes several techs, buildings and some units from C2C, to make the early game more interesting. But I'm still not 100% satisfied with it. I want to add more micromanagement for the early game.

When I will want to have some prehistoric fun without the intention to play through all the eras I will play C2C again.
...but I also want to try Planatfall too, sometime
...and I also started a city in Skylines too, but played only a few hours
...and there I have the resurrected Nexus - The Jupiter Incident, one of my absolute favorite space game too
...but I also want to finish my AND game too, in which I just reached the renaissance although I started that game months ago
So much to play, so little time

 

[JosEPh_II]

I get it, but a personal difference with the producer won't make his product bad. I really understand (now). Resentment can make someone hate everything that is connected to his offender.
Still I say it is a great mod.


It's a little (a lot) better than BTS imo, but I agree that it can use a little more flavor. That why I made my on modmods. Chronicles: In the Beginning takes several techs, buildings and some units from C2C, to make the early game more interesting. But I'm still not 100% satisfied with it. I want to add more micromanagement for the early game.

When I will want to have some prehistoric fun without the intention to play through all the eras I will play C2C again.
...but I also want to try Planatfall too, sometime
...and I also started a city in Skylines too, but played only a few hours
...and there I have the resurrected Nexus - The Jupiter Incident, one of my absolute favorite space game too
...but I also want to finish my AND game too, in which I just reached the renaissance although I started that game months ago
So much to play, so little time

You Need to understand this, I do not Hate Aforress or his product. I have fundamental game preferences that are quite different than he wanted in the mod. To the point that he called my ideas and implementations "stupid". No, I do Not hate Aforress. But I don't have to put up with insults and mockery because I disagree on direction. So I walked away. 45* on the other hand Always treated me with respect and friendship.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't think it is an excess of buildings and techs per se that cause the problems. The space colonization modmod adds about 500 new buildings and 45 new techs, and it had no noticeable impact on speed.

However, some serious consolidation of buildings is needed if the Industrial Era and later are to be fully playable. We can't know until it's done, but I predict that aggressive building consolidation will solve a lot of problems. I still intend to do that. There's also the matter of the overly elaborate build chains in the Transhuman Era.

Completely agree with all of this.

 

[strategyonly]

However, some serious consolidation of buildings is needed .

What do u mean by "consolidation"?

 

[Thunderbrd]

What do u mean by "consolidation"?

That's actually a complex answer that DH and Pepper and Mouse and I have discussed from many differing angles and approaches. I don't think we have an absolute consensus yet on what would be a perfect solution but I'm looking forward to initial attempts to manifest some of these design philosophies.

Note that it doesn't necessarily mean cutting down on the number of buildings so much as trying to cut down on the number of AVAILABLE buildings that can be built by a city in a given era.

 

[pepper2000]

My approach is that most buildings should be obsolete and/or have replacements about two eras after they become available. This also entails some large manufacturing complexes late in the game that produce many resources each, replacing the early factories that produce one at a time.

Over the next few versions of my space colonization project, I plan to roll out some consolidation. Then we can see if it really works as well as I hope.

 

[Arakhor]

And could we please do something about the unholy mess of "resources" that everyone has halfway into the game? Previously, the excuse was always "oh but you'll need it four eras later for X building", so if Y building will just produce stuff instead, there shouldn't be any need to keep such resources around.

 

[Harrier]

My approach is that most buildings should be obsolete and/or have replacements about two eras after they become available. This also entails some large manufacturing complexes late in the game that produce many resources each, replacing the early factories that produce one at a time.

Over the next few versions of my space colonization project, I plan to roll out some consolidation. Then we can see if it really works as well as I hope.

Think about the old "Realism Invictus " approach, which I suggested with others. Do not know if it is still used. But is similar to your thinking.

1. You have the tech to construct building A. ( a forge)

2. Later a new tech gives building B, (which replaces building A).

You can no longer build A, but existing buildings of A still work.

Example an old forge will still work, even if there is a better method available.

You can upgrade A to B if you can. But cities without A can only build B.

3. Another new tech becomes available (possibly in another era). This upgrades building B to building C.

You can no longer build B only C. But existing B's still work.

The big change is:

Now building A becomes obsolete. Any you have no longer work.

As a player you had 2 chances to upgrade. If you do not - you suffer the penalty.

Not sure if this approach helps in the later era's.

Never even reached Industrial.

 

[pepper2000]

I wasn't familiar with Realism Invictus, but that sounds a lot like what I want to do. The best analogy we have now is the way that once you get Electricity, you have until Industrialism to upgrade to new factories or lose the resources that the older workshops provided.

 

[tmv]

As long as that doesn't destroy building chains. There was a time when building Orbital Prison (replacing all the jails) meant you could no longer build Police Precincts, which in turn meant you could no longer build the Police Cat Trainer. The old Cat Trainer buildings still worked, but new Cities were out of luck. Especially when the Big Cat Trainer Effect became obsolete at Vertical Flight IIRC.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Think about the old "Realism Invictus " approach, which I suggested with others. Do not know if it is still used. But is similar to your thinking.

1. You have the tech to construct building A. ( a forge)

2. Later a new tech gives building B, (which replaces building A).

You can no longer build A, but existing buildings of A still work.

Example an old forge will still work, even if there is a better method available.

You can upgrade A to B if you can. But cities without A can only build B.

3. Another new tech becomes available (possibly in another era). This upgrades building B to building C.

You can no longer build B only C. But existing B's still work.

The big change is:

Now building A becomes obsolete. Any you have no longer work.

As a player you had 2 chances to upgrade. If you do not - you suffer the penalty.

Not sure if this approach helps in the later era's.

Never even reached Industrial.

We don't have the code to support this in C2C.

 

[Thunderbrd]

As long as that doesn't destroy building chains. There was a time when building Orbital Prison (replacing all the jails) meant you could no longer build Police Precincts, which in turn meant you could no longer build the Police Cat Trainer. The old Cat Trainer buildings still worked, but new Cities were out of luck. Especially when the Big Cat Trainer Effect became obsolete at Vertical Flight IIRC.

It's a pain to resolve this in the xml but it can be done with more complex OR statements to account for those building upgrades. Building A OR Building B (the upgrade of building A) is a prereq.

I tried to resolve this in the code and it was too slow. An alternative WAY to resolve this in the code was floated at the time and probably isn't a bad idea and could work but it would take some tricksy programming which I don't currently have the time for... which leads me to...

We don't have the code to support this in C2C.

I thought that might be the case but I didn't look closely enough at the suggested method to be absolutely sure. Maybe something similar can be done under the coding we have? I won't have time for this sort of coding project for a long time here.

 

[crazyewok]

Idea may be to make C2C more modular.

Maybe add a user friendly way to cut eras or aspects out users may not use.

Maybe modulars down loads.