Solver's Unofficial BtS Patch

[DrJambo]

Testing indicates that the EP cost for stealing a tech will almost always be higher than the beaker cost of researching. Which doesn't mean that stealing isn't worth it.

If that is the case, then it doesn't seem to me that stealing tech is worth it....

Can you give an example?

 

[Innawerkz]

Since Corporation maintenance is now seperate from Inflation, I'd suggest increasing their cost

perhaps base cost 8 (from 5)
and resource cost 2 (from 1)

I'll second this suggestion. Definitely makes you consider it's spread more.

By the way, the foment unhappiness is generally considered more damaging because you will lose more food per turn from citizens not working than from health loss. So it should have a higher cost.

Hmm. I agree to an extent but finding extra happiness quickly is much easier than extra health. Two notches on the culture bar pretty much eliminates the effect immediately when coupled with a theater & colosseum - which are most likely in your large (re: higher-risk) cities anyway.

The loss in / is definitely inconvenient, but at least you save the population and can start putting some back to use within four turns.

 

[playshogi]

There are some random events in the game that destroy towns. Should these also be scaled back to turning towns into villages, too? In fact, rather than these events destroy improvements, I'd like instead to see 1) temporary increases to city maintenance, OR 2) temporary production loss in city OR 3) losses to food stored, OR even 4) population loss, so as to avoid 'whack a mole' syndrome to rebuild improvements. These negative events pop up like crazy in the late game just like pollution did in Civ 3.

Regarding spies being annoying. Yes, I think they are, when they destroy the odd mine or farm it's like playing 'whack a mole' again since my workers in the late game can fix it in 1 turn. I think if the player has 0% espionage and no spies, and has never built spies, then he should be left alone (from spy attacks) during peacetime.

 

[Kalimakhus]

There are some random events in the game that destroy towns. Should these also be scaled back to turning towns into villages, too? In fact, rather than these events destroy improvements, I'd like instead to see 1) temporary increases to city maintenance, OR 2) temporary production loss in city OR 3) losses to food stored, OR even 4) population loss, so as to avoid 'whack a mole' syndrome to rebuild improvements. These negative events pop up like crazy in the late game just like pollution did in Civ 3.

Regarding spies being annoying. Yes, I think they are, when they destroy the odd mine or farm it's like playing 'whack a mole' again since my workers in the late game can fix it in 1 turn. I think if the player has 0% espionage and no spies, and has never built spies, then he should be left alone (from spy attacks) during peacetime.

I agree about towns being downgraded rather than fully destroyed. But what should the poor player be left alone to do. I mean such a peace lover is sure building SS or growing legendary cities. He is sure a fair target for spies attack.

 

[Solver]

If that is the case, then it doesn't seem to me that stealing tech is worth it....

Can you give an example?

It's, well, a different situation. I don't think a direct beaker-vs-EP comparison is fair. Suppose you already have the EP for it, then stealing a tech is usually good. Next thing to remember is, stealing techs is instant. So if you're devoting some resources to EP, you're "researching" two techs at once - one normally, and the other through EP.

If you use an early Great Spy to infiltrate, you can steal several techs, which is easily worth it - although the cost of each mission is likely to slightly exceed the beaker cost.

 

[LordGek]

Regarding spies being annoying. Yes, I think they are, when they destroy the odd mine or farm it's like playing 'whack a mole' again since my workers in the late game can fix it in 1 turn. I think if the player has 0% espionage and no spies, and has never built spies, then he should be left alone (from spy attacks) during peacetime.

I feel your pain but talk about EXPLOITABLE (by human players). Maybe in the future somebody can make you a mod to remove all espionage but what you're talking about seems akin to, "If I never build any troops the AI should know not to attack me".

 

[mrt144]

There are some random events in the game that destroy towns. Should these also be scaled back to turning towns into villages, too? In fact, rather than these events destroy improvements, I'd like instead to see 1) temporary increases to city maintenance, OR 2) temporary production loss in city OR 3) losses to food stored, OR even 4) population loss, so as to avoid 'whack a mole' syndrome to rebuild improvements. These negative events pop up like crazy in the late game just like pollution did in Civ 3.

Regarding spies being annoying. Yes, I think they are, when they destroy the odd mine or farm it's like playing 'whack a mole' again since my workers in the late game can fix it in 1 turn. I think if the player has 0% espionage and no spies, and has never built spies, then he should be left alone (from spy attacks) during peacetime.

I dont think these are good ideas at all. a player that doesnt protect from espionage should get destroyed for it.

 

[playshogi]

I feel your pain but talk about EXPLOITABLE (by human players). Maybe in the future somebody can make you a mod to remove all espionage but what you're talking about seems akin to, "If I never build any troops the AI should know not to attack me".

Nice one! But not really comparable. If I don't build troops, I will probably lose the game by being attacked. If I don't build spies, I might get my farm destroyed. Big difference. Loss of game vs. just being annoyed. I still compare spying in this implementation with bringing back pollution.

 

[IronCrown]

Just automate some workers and they will repair the farm without any intervention on your part. I don't see why that is overly annoying.

 

[LordGek]

Nice one! But not really comparable. If I don't build troops, I will probably lose the game by being attacked. If I don't build spies, I might get my farm destroyed. Big difference. Loss of game vs. just being annoyed. I still compare spying in this implementation with bringing back pollution.

Enh, I think you can still do a lot with just 10% in Espionage and a spy or two in each city to greatly reduce AI incursions. You can't simply IGNORE espionage but you can still keep it to a very minor background annoyance.

 

[player1 fanatic]

It's, well, a different situation. I don't think a direct beaker-vs-EP comparison is fair. Suppose you already have the EP for it, then stealing a tech is usually good. Next thing to remember is, stealing techs is instant. So if you're devoting some resources to EP, you're "researching" two techs at once - one normally, and the other through EP.

If you use an early Great Spy to infiltrate, you can steal several techs, which is easily worth it - although the cost of each mission is likely to slightly exceed the beaker cost.

So in practice, increasing EP spending with sole purpose of tech stealing is not worth it.

On the other hand "free EP" is free EP and can be used in any way, including tech theft.

 

[jray]

Just automate some workers and they will repair the farm without any intervention on your part. I don't see why that is overly annoying.

But automated workers don't know they're supposed to put a farm there, do they? How do you know they won't put a workshop there and foil your best-laid plans? And if you automate them, won't they be somewhere off in the boonies building roads on ice? It would take even LONGER then to move them over to rebuild the farm.

It'd be nice to have a new "Automatic Spy Recovery" worker option .

 

[sveint]

Not a bug at all but the Aggressive AI builds far too few wonders. This is actually a weakness compared to the default AI.

 

[Kalimakhus]

Not a bug at all but the Aggressive AI builds far too few wonders. This is actually a weakness compared to the default AI.

Not really a weakness. If it is true then it is actually quite normal. An agressive human player wouldn't build wonders either. He will let peace loving players build them for him in the cities he plans to capture later. A complementing adjustment for this behavior is to make sure that the AI won't raze a city that has a wonder - I think they already won't raze a one with a shrine but I am not sure about wonders.

 

[Solver]

Yeah, that's certainly intentional. Aggressive AI overall prefers warfare to building, so if it has the chance, it'll build up troops instead, assigning a lower priority to Wonders.

 

[Kalimakhus]

Does Aggressive AI override the personality tendencies of leaders. I mean do they all build troops at the same rate even those wonders lovers. Or it is a global modifier that shifts the tendency to build wonders but keeps the differences among them?

 

[Solver]

The personalities are still there. Aggressive AI impacts their overall choice of strategy and a number of other things, but Aggressive AI Willem is still not a monster, whereas Aggressive AI Shaka is a complete monster.

 

[Roland Johansen]

By the way, the foment unhappiness is generally considered more damaging because you will lose more food per turn from citizens not working than from health loss. So it should have a higher cost.

Hmm. I agree to an extent but finding extra happiness quickly is much easier than extra health. Two notches on the culture bar pretty much eliminates the effect immediately when coupled with a theater & colosseum - which are most likely in your large (re: higher-risk) cities anyway.

The loss in / is definitely inconvenient, but at least you save the population and can start putting some back to use within four turns.

That might be effective in a one city challenge, but is very inefficient to increase the culture rate in your entire empire to counter the loss of happiness in one single city. If you do that for a few turns, you're effectively losing an entire turn of research of your entire empire.

 

[sveint]

I thought "Aggressive AI" was now supposed to be "Challenging AI"?

I struggled against the Aggressive AI until I started going Industrial and grabbing just about all the wonders. It's gotten to the point where playing against Aggressive AI is starting to seem easier than the default one.

Just so there is no misunderstanding: I don't play builder, but a mix of building/aggressive expansion.

 

[Solver]

Aggressive AI is more challenging in the sense that it's more opportunistic and that it's better prepared to take a rush from you. If you get to the Industrial age in a position to grab the wonders, you've probably already survived the earlier challenges.