Solver's Unofficial BtS Patch

If you were in the position to have two subs vs one destroyer, wouldn't you be better off with just one battleship? Less cost, less time, better chance of winning.
However, you also have more risk. i.e., you put more on one roll of the dice. Yes, your chances on that one roll are better, but if you lose, you lose more (a battleship dies, instead of a single sub dies).

Two subs have a slightly higher chance (than a battleship) that the combat will be a loss (and the first sub will die). However, regardless if the first sub won/lost/retreated, the second sub will have near certainty to win.

So, it really depends on your style. Risk everything on one roll of the dice with pretty good odds, or to have better odds of killing the defender at the cost of slightly worse chance of losing a sub?

This is basically a "double or nothing" choice.

(Or, if you are a fan of classic popular US film, "nothing or double". Of course, my definition of "classic" is different than most people. :)

Wodan
 
Yeah, a Battleship vs. a Destroyer has good odds, but a sub is actually better with its 90% retreat. Remember that a sub grants near-certain victory for your next fight against that unit. Even if the enemy has a stack of 7 Destroyers and you have only 4, but have 5 subs. You hit 5 Destroyers damaging them heavily. Now that's only 2 full-health Destroyers against your 4, and your 4 will take them 2 out - and the rest can be mopped up with anything.

I've also used subs with tactical nukes on them as a last resort in naval battles. If the AI comes up with a huge navy I can't counter, hit it with a tactical nuke - damages/kills ships in that tile and the adjacent ones. That's pretty much a last resort situation, but I like the possibility.
 
All valid points guys, but still not convincing as to the usefulness subs in BtS.

that's exactly the point of subs!
you can use a pair to go weaken the AI stack before they come near you, without retaliation.

If the subs can't make it back to port and assuming there's a destroyer present, the subs are just cannon fodder for anything left in the stack, transports, frigates, galleons included. If they can make it back to port, then why not use a battleship? It's collateral damage will make it more useful. Plus, if it wins well, it stands a good chance of also winning another fight.

Solver said:
Even if the enemy has a stack of 7 Destroyers and you have only 4, but have 5 subs. You hit 5 Destroyers damaging them heavily. Now that's only 2 full-health Destroyers against your 4, and your 4 will take them 2 out - and the rest can be mopped up with anything.
I don't have exact numbers at hand, but say those 5 subs are 3 battleships instead, with the collateral damage of battleships you're statistically likely to win all battles without loss and destroying all 7 destroyers in the process. I know which I'd choose. Plus, each example has assumed a well upgraded sub to get it to 90% withdrawal.

Lastly these are all mentioning subs on attack. On defence there's no withdrawal and no running. One battleship is much more useful than 2 subs in this circumstance, particularly as ships are about to be allowed the blitz promotion.

Solver said:
I've also used subs with tactical nukes on them as a last resort in naval battles. If the AI comes up with a huge navy I can't counter, hit it with a tactical nuke - damages/kills ships in that tile and the adjacent ones. That's pretty much a last resort situation, but I like the possibility.
So this is about it. Wow. Risk the world hating you, even if you're lucky enough to have a game where nuclear warheads play a significant part in the proceedings without someone having raised the UN vote to veto them.
 
Dr. Jambo --
-- your subs don't have to make it back to port. Just to your choice of: (a) any friendly port where your enemy doesn't have open borders, (b) icepack, (c) your port, (d) your BB or stack that the enemy won't attack, or (e) far enough away that they can't find you
-- BBs cost more than subs.
-- you don't have to have twice as many subs. The math works no matter what units you have. You could use your subs to damage the enemy, and then finish them off with transports, in many cases. Point is, that even the first attack has advantages if you use a sub instead of a battleship or destroyer. So, even a single sub maintains the same usefulness (you don't have to build 20).
-- BBs can't detect invisible units, so are useless as an early warning system. Put your subs out as pickets. Yes, you pay a pittance of maintenance (truly a pittance by that stage of the game... who cares about 6-10 gold or so?), but you get 2-3 turns of advance warning before the enemy transport stack shows up on your shores. And, once detected, you can swarm your subs to take them out, leavened with a few BBs or destroyers. And, as mentioned, you can even "clean up" with transports, getting your transports "easy" XP.

Wodan
 
I don't have exact numbers at hand, but say those 5 subs are 3 battleships instead, with the collateral damage of battleships you're statistically likely to win all battles without loss and destroying all 7 destroyers in the process. I know which I'd choose. Plus, each example has assumed a well upgraded sub to get it to 90% withdrawal.

Maybe, though a full-health Battleship vs. a full-health Destroyer isn't so decisive. And the cost of losing is larger. For 90% sub withdrawal, that's only two promotions - Drydock only for Charistmatic leaders, Drydock + Military Instructor or a XP-granting civic for non-Cha leaders. Not highly promoted, really.

Lastly these are all mentioning subs on attack. On defence there's no withdrawal and no running. One battleship is much more useful than 2 subs in this circumstance, particularly as ships are about to be allowed the blitz promotion.

Agreed, subs are weak on defense. Their only strength defensively is stealth, which does no good vs. Destroyers.

So this is about it. Wow. Risk the world hating you, even if you're lucky enough to have a game where nuclear warheads play a significant part in the proceedings without someone having raised the UN vote to veto them.

Hmm, I've almost never had the AI veto nukes. And I've never cared about diplo penalties - my friends probably won't hate me for using nukes, and my enemies can stick their diplo modifiers where the sun don't shine ;)

EDIT: And with the Attack Subs now getting boosted strength, they'll be solid. Regular subs for missiles and attack subs for weakening ships. At str. 30, they can beat Destroyers sometimes. At str. 30 with Flanking II, they'll either win or survive.
 
(Or, if you are a fan of classic popular US film, "nothing or double". Of course, my definition of "classic" is different than most people. :)

OMG! we need a civ with a 6 demon bag UU :eek:! ok now i'm off to do penance for going even more offtopic than i usually do...
 
A lot of warfare in Civ isn't realistic and I do believe gameplay should always trump realism.

I don't think the submarine is too unrealistic. I spent six years in the US Navy on submarines, and the role for attack subs is largely to be part of a carrier escort group. They do have some hunter/killer roles but by and large they are support for the battle fleet as are destroyers and cruisers.

Ballistic missile subs go solo and just assure that the Montezumas of the world don't want to launch their nukes first.

Of course as a submariner, I would love to be able to use them more than I do in Civ.
 
A lot of warfare in Civ isn't realistic and I do believe gameplay should always trump realism.

I don't think the submarine is too unrealistic. I spent six years in the US Navy on submarines, and the role for attack subs is largely to be part of a carrier escort group. They do have some hunter/killer roles but by and large they are support for the battle fleet as are destroyers and cruisers.

Ballistic missile subs go solo and just assure that the Montezumas of the world don't want to launch their nukes first.

Of course as a submariner, I would love to be able to use them more than I do in Civ.

You are forgetting that your real experience is based on peace situatiuon only,while at real war ( and I hope it is only a game speech of course ) the situation is "quite different " and suddenly changes from peace boring TMA exercises and fake simulations to something more serious.

Boomers ( SSBM ) got immediately heavily escorted,...ya know ... one boomer only can fry dozens of US biggest metropolis ...while hunter/killers ( 688 ) suddenly would become active and they will immediately start to play their hunter/killer role and you can bet surface war-vessels crews will start to pray before their helos have left them to search subs...and of course to get safe :)

Of course as you say the better approach is made by a complete surface formation escorted by subs and of course planes and Ticos play the main role...

I'm quite entitled too to express my opinion on subs role ;)
 
You are forgetting that your real experience is based on peace situatiuon only,while at real war ( and I hope it is only a game speech of course ) the situation is "quite different " and suddenly changes from peace boring TMA exercises and fake simulations to something more serious.

Boomers ( SSBM ) got immediately heavily escorted,...ya know ... one boomer only can fry dozens of US biggest metropolis ...while hunter/killers ( 688 ) suddenly would become active and they will immediately start to play their hunter/killer role and you can bet surface war-vessels crews will start to pray before their helos have left them to search subs...and of course to get safe :)

I'm quite entitled too to express my opinion on subs role ;)

That is true, my experience was mostly based on peace time with the exception of Desert Storm, which wasn't a knock down, all out war with subs. Fortunately Civ doesn't reflect the reality too much of crews being bored out at sea. :lol:

Although you might be understating the Boomers capabilities. Potentially carrying 24 missiles each one capable of carrying many multiple warheads could take a country to the stone age in minutes.

It would be interesting to have units like the P3 Orion and other sub hunters as well. The more I think about it, the more I wish subs were more useful. I find that I hardly ever build them because they aren't that much fun to use.
 
OMG! we need a civ with a 6 demon bag UU :eek:! ok now i'm off to do penance for going even more offtopic than i usually do...
"Nothing or Double"? Would that have been released in the US as "Big Trouble in Little China"?

Jack Burton: Hey, what more can a guy ask for?
Egg Shen: Oh, a six-demon bag!
Jack Burton: Terrific, a six-demon bag. Sensational. What's in it, Egg?
Egg Shen: Wind, fire, all that kind of thing!"
 
The more I think about it, the more I wish subs were more useful. I find that I hardly ever build them because they aren't that much fun to use.

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head. Sure, a pack of subs with 90% withdrawal can do damage to a stack of whatever, but like any other game, there's generally little satisfaction to be had from units that by themselves don't do very much. Being invisible isn't all it's cranked up to be either. Destroyers are readily available and the AI likes to park them in cities, so as soon as you approach the enemy coastline your subs are usually sunk from high-movement destroyers. Bah. Build a battleship.
 
I find that I hardly ever build them because they aren't that much fun to use.

So basically we both know how subs behave and we came to the same conclusion,therefore I think you can agree that they are almost useless despiting the next patch tiny changes.


BTW beeing you from London I assume you were enlisted on a the royal navy Trafalgar or Swiftsure ? :)
 
OMG! we need a civ with a 6 demon bag UU :eek:!
I'm impressed... :worship:

Back to subs, seems to me that they should be invisible unless the destroyer is right next to it. i.e. only the 8 tiles immediately surrounding the sub.

Or, even better, perhaps only if the destroyer actually tries to move into its square. Halt the destroyer, and reveal the sub. Allow the destroyer to continue to take its turn.

Wodan
 
maybe firaxis should think about taking solver's patch as offical
 
why not make it rock/paper/scissors

Battleship counters Destroyer
Destroyer counters Sub
Sub counters Battleship
 
why not make it rock/paper/scissors

Battleship counters Destroyer
Destroyer counters Sub
Sub counters Battleship
A good way to do this would be to give subs a bonus when attacking from stealth. (In addition to fixing the lack of invisibility problem.)

Where it would fall apart though is when attacking a combined force.

Wodan
 
A good way to do this would be to give subs a bonus when attacking from stealth. (In addition to fixing the lack of invisibility problem.)

Where it would fall apart though is when attacking a combined force.

Wodan

I had that though too. If the subs have an attack bonus, they can hide under surface ships and be protected. This reduces their vulnerability. Of course, the ability to hide under the ice is always there as well. Negating it entirely if destroyers or other submarines were present would fairly well make this useless, since most sensible players would keep such units in the stack.

But subs must travel alone some of the time, and being very weak on defense, relatively, they don't have much chance. A big part of this is how easy destroyers detect them. Limiting their sight radius would help with that. But then, you still have Airships, and historically, aircraft which should sometimes spot them.


Detection and subsequent destruction is where submarines end up being useless. It does no good to have a fair chance of evading and surviving an attack, if the subs on defense are simply hunted down and killed.

Compare two small task forces. First, a surface group, one battleship, two destroyers, one transport. Second, a wolf pack of five submarines. These are the same cost, I think.

If the surface group is attacked, the first three subs are likely to lose, but may withdraw with good flanking bonuses. If their targets have comparable levels of promotion, the odds that they'll win drop. The last two subs may kill their two targets, and if lucky, might get the transport -- if loaded, a high value target, which is of course a good reason to use subs.

But then, they must evade. Badly wounded, the ones that withdrew, unless they have some secure cover, are simply going to be consumed by the survivors. Even a damaged transport can kill an almost-dead sub. A speedy fresh destroyer moved into the area might clean up the rest before they get away. The true odds of making it a secure place to heal aren't that great, unless you fight within movement range of a base.

If the surface group catches the submarines, the battleship can wreak havoc with barrage, and in any case is pretty sure to kill one of them. The destroyers take a couple more out, most likely. Again, if the submarines are taking flanking to evade, they don't get attack bonuses, so even for a strength 30 attack sub they're still weaker than promoted destroyers. The surviving subs might kill something, but are pretty much in a bad way as far as the economic exchange goes.

So either way, the subs lose economically. You lose more in subs than you take out in ships they kill.

Am I wrong? Aren't submarines supposed to work the other way around, being a relatively cheap (but risky) way to fight a naval war?

Two surface combat groups would tend to be more even on attack vs. defense. Speedy destroyers, when wounded, can escape often.


The attack sub change is a help, and will definitely tip the scales for my use of them. I like using some just because I think their cool, but that doesn't mean that they are a good strategic weapon.
 
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