Some forgotten-but-important technologies

[Dubzilla8]

According to Wikipedia:


Mathematics

Mayan numerals In common with the other Mesoamerican civilizations, the Maya used a base 20 (vigesimal) and base 5 numbering system (see Maya numerals). Also, the preclassic Maya and their neighbors independently developed the concept of zero by 36 BC. Inscriptions show them on occasion working with sums up to the hundreds of millions and dates so large it would take several lines just to represent it. They produced extremely accurate astronomical observations; their charts of the movements of the moon and planets are equal or superior to those of any other civilization working from naked eye observation.

I just want to throw this out there; WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A LEGITIMATE SOURCE. Seriously, try using Wikipedia in a legitimate collegiate institution and see what happens. As a student of history, my professors specifically stated that Wikipedia was not allowed to be a source. Seriously, ANYONE can go on Wikipedia and write an article.

Whew, okay, its out of the system. I only had to say it because Wikipedia has been cited twice in this thread.

Back on topic: I dont know a whole lot about the Mongols, but I thought they simply used the stirrup to new affects; ie riding backwards while shooting etc. I didnt think they created the stirrup. Does anyone have a REAL source (scholarly journal, publication, etc) about this topic? Im a little interested.

 

[Thanny]

The egyptian and chinese ones are symbolic (one word = one symbol) while the Japanese and many others are syllabic (one syllable = one symbol).

Kanji is symbolic. It's basically just adapted Chinese. Kana is syllabic, also using adapted Chinese characters. So the Japanese actually have both kinds of writing.

 

[azzaman333]

I propose unique promotions, so Greek Spearmen could get phalanx, Mongol Keshiks would get Stirrup, etc.

 

[obliterate]

Kanji is symbolic. It's basically just adapted Chinese. Kana is syllabic, also using adapted Chinese characters. So the Japanese actually have both kinds of writing.

What about Hiragana and katakana?

 

[Underdawg]

I just want to throw this out there; WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A LEGITIMATE SOURCE. Seriously, try using Wikipedia in a legitimate collegiate institution and see what happens. As a student of history, my professors specifically stated that Wikipedia was not allowed to be a source. Seriously, ANYONE can go on Wikipedia and write an article.

Whew, okay, its out of the system. I only had to say it because Wikipedia has been cited twice in this thread.

Back on topic: I dont know a whole lot about the Mongols, but I thought they simply used the stirrup to new affects; ie riding backwards while shooting etc. I didnt think they created the stirrup. Does anyone have a REAL source (scholarly journal, publication, etc) about this topic? Im a little interested.

Just because it's Wikipedia doesn't mean it's not true....

When I look up an article in Wiki I usually check and usually end up going to the sources (which are the sources for the article, if it has any; it it doesn't, then obviously the article is very weak).

 

[Zongo]

According to Wikipedia: [...] Mayan numerals In common with the other Mesoamerican civilizations, the Maya used a base 20 (vigesimal) and base 5 numbering system (see Maya numerals). Also, the preclassic Maya and their neighbors independently developed the concept of zero by 36 BC.

Surprising. It looks as if I was wrong then. It is interesting that the symbol for zero is an empty shell, it might even be the same idea behind the symbol "0", who knows. Pity there aren't many non-Wikipedia links. Thanks!

 

[Zongo]

What about Hiragana and katakana?

They are both sillabic, one devised by Monks (Katakana), one for common people. Hiragana is used for originally japanese words, Katakana for (originally) foreign words other than Chinese, and Kanji are used for (originally) chinese words.

I wrote that japanese was syllabic because that was the adaptation of writing done in an original way by the people of the archipelago. Of course modern japanese is symbolic AND syllabic - AND alphabetic too, roman letters are now in use.

 

[Zongo]

In spite of almost everything you said is true, you are confusing the concept of zero with a symbol for the concept of zero.

I was trying not to be too anal in details... Of course concepts and symbols are different things and ceci ce n'est pas une pipe, but that was not the point of the discussion.

The point is that mathematics could be split into basic geometry, and basic algebra (zero, positional representation). With the first you measure fields, construct buildings, make objects. With the second you manage fast and large computations, a prerequisite for precise, large scale accounting (banks).

So you need to have the concept of zero first, then you write it in a symbol, almost at the moment you need a placeholder for positional representation, and then you are ready for kicking basic algebra - NEGATIVE numbers come into play... The more difficult part is the positional representation jump, because it requires not only inventiveness, but quite a feat of formal thought which, for the hitherto untrained mind, is remarkable.

 

[Kark]

Keel: Sailing? The "ocean-going" ships you mentioned were sailing on the CivIV equivalent of coast, although the re-introduction of the Sea tile could improve this...

The Vikings had real ocean-going ships. That was partly because of the keel, but generally the overall construction of the ships. Not so much technology as skill. Shipbuilding, seamanship and navigation skills.

Currently playing Ragnar, it seems odd to have to build caravels to sail the ocean and galleons to send armies across it. The Scandinavians did this much earlier.

Maybe there should be a new promotion for naval units (ability to enter ocean tiles). The Vikings could get it with the Trading Post, instead of Navigation I.

 

[Soneji]

Yeah I think Civ IV will always suck when it comes to Navy

 

[sagji]

Apparently, the Parthians archers were superb riders. AFAIK, Parthians did not have the stirrup, and their cavalry was manned by well-trained noblemen, while the mongols have an entire people capable of the feat.

I think it applies to the enitre people - it certainly applies to the whole army, with the possible exception of the cataphracts (presumably the nobels). You said that accurate shooting was impossible without the stirrup I am providing a example that discredits your assertion.

It is like the difference between copying books by hands, or printing them. Of course you can have books in Roman times. It only takes a lot of time and money to obtain them, while after printing every house in Europe could own a Bible, for instance.

Pythagorean triples were discovered with geometric methods first - and not by Pythagoras, but by the Egyptians. Pythagoras was, after all, a genius, and was able to devise and deploy cutting-edge mathematical tools to get some new results: new pythagorean triples, the discovery of irrational numbers.

Again you said algebra is impossible without zero, and thus was not available to the Greeks. I am discrediting this by giving a counter example. The concept of irrational numbers requires algebra.

But without the concept of zero real algebra, intended as group theory applied to numbers, was impossible, and with it were also many results that we teach now in elementary school. Today kids of the age of 6 learn how to multiply abritrarily big numbers, while this was an excruciating feat in ancient times (try multiply 658x237 with roman numbers). This is due to positional representation, which is a by-product of the concept of zero.

The ability to multiply arbitary large numbers is nothing to do with algebra, in fact zero has little relevence to algebra. I think you will find that zero is a by product of positional representation.

 

[Zongo]

I think it applies to the enitre people

Uh, not AFAIK.

Again you said algebra is impossible without zero, and thus was not available to the Greeks. I am discrediting this by giving a counter example. The concept of irrational numbers requires algebra.

It is just a "neither odd nor even" argument. You CAN consider it algebra, as in "you CAN stick your fingers up your nose till you feel your brain", but it does not bear any general intuition of group theory. It came close, though, but yet... So I don't think it qualifies as algebra, as a structured theory that is. It is just a little trick that could.

The ability to multiply arbitary large numbers is nothing to do with algebra, in fact zero has little relevence to algebra. I think you will find that zero is a by product of positional representation.

I believe you are mistaken, or confused, about that. I also believe that the zombie of Evariste Galois has just risen from the dead and is lurching toward you with murderous intent, you better go get a chainsaw and a shotgun.

Do you want to know what Algebra really is?
Algebra is all about group theory on spaces, including and starting from numbers and going up to polynominals and beyond to really weird spaces. Operations defining sets by internal construction, invariant elements in operations, inverse operations. Plus many really funky theorems answering some apparently easy thousand-year-old questions. Zero is precisely the invariant element in the additive (semi)group N that defines the natural numbers. Allow for the inverse operation and you have negative numbers and the (full) group of integer numbers Z (from the German Zahlen: numbers). The positional representation is nothing else but a compact operative representation of an infinite group (the integer numbers) in a infinite sequence of finite subgroups, where global operations are modular and easily manageable. You CAN use it without understanding what it really is (we moderns all did it at some point), but in order to invent it you need a really fabulous insight into algebra.

ANYWAY, we are getting slightly away from the point. My point is, algebra is important, different from geometry, and a necessary prerequisite for calculus or private enterprise accounting. So worthy of being its own tech. Similarly for the stirrup and horseback riding.

 

[gettingfat]

Birth control - totally redefines the role of female

Herbals - you don't discover "medicine" in the game till at least 1700 ac as if people before that all relied on their own immune system. In fact, most Asian countries and American natives used herbals systematically.

 

[sagji]

Uh, not AFAIK.

It is just a "neither odd nor even" argument. You CAN consider it algebra, as in "you CAN stick your fingers up your nose till you feel your brain", but it does not bear any general intuition of group theory. It came close, though, but yet... So I don't think it qualifies as algebra, as a structured theory that is. It is just a little trick that could.

I believe you are mistaken, or confused, about that.

Do you want to know what Algebra really is?
Algebra is all about group theory on spaces, including and starting from numbers and going up to polynominals and beyond to really weird spaces. Operations defining sets by internal construction, invariant elements in operations, inverse operations. Plus many really funky theorems answering some apparently easy thousand-year-old questions. Zero is precisely the invariant element in the additive (semi)group N that defines the natural numbers. Allow for the inverse operation and you have negative numbers and the (full) group of integer numbers Z (from the German Zahlen: numbers). The positional representation is nothing else but a compact operative representation of an infinite group (the integer numbers) in a infinite sequence of finite subgroups, where global operations are modular and easily manageable. You CAN use it without understanding what it really is (we moderns all did it at some point), but in order to invent it you need a really fabulous insight into algebra.

ANYWAY, we are getting slightly away from the point. My point is, algebra is important, different from geometry, and a necessary prerequisite for calculus or private enterprise accounting. So worthy of being its own tech. Similarly for the stirrup and horseback riding.

You appear to be assuming that arithmatic is part of abstract algebra, and that abstract algebra is all of algebra.

Yes algebra and the stirrup are important, but they are not as essential as you claim them to be.

 

[Zongo]

You appear to be assuming that arithmatic is part of abstract algebra, and that abstract algebra is all of algebra.

Not really, I am trying to make points without writing an essay. As a consequence, there will be imprecisions and abridgements.

I basically assume, as I think do most of people studying math, that algebra is one big topic, originally marginally tackled in some relatively fragmented parts and then evolved in a more coherent and organized whole by the development of abstract algebra.

I also assume that many theories or structures which had a name of their own for quite long time because they were easy to apply and difficult to relate to other theories, indeed find their own place in more general ones once these are discovered. Positional arithmetics is, in fact, a gift of algebra.

Polynomial root analysis CAN be thought of with basic knowledge, as you CAN wonder about the existence of God well before some theological thought or marxism, but you rarely get much further than sacrifying virgins to bulls.
In any case, fat answers can be obtained only after algebra is full blown, i.e., after you develop the abstract part. That's the might and merit of Galois.

Yes algebra and the stirrup are important, but they are not as essential as you claim them to be.

This is the first line from you so far which is not absolutely critical. I feel somewhat happy

 

[Zongo]

Birth control - totally redefines the role of female

Contraception is a very interesting suggestion. The possible gameplay effect could be that city growth stops (with the granary full) the moment you reach the happiness limit of your cities. Or grant an extra health, or happiness, or both. Other ideas on effects?

Herbals - you don't discover "medicine" in the game till at least 1700 ac as if people before that all relied on their own immune system. In fact, most Asian countries and American natives used herbals systematically.

Medical herbs were used in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, too.

I feel "medicine" is a codeword for large-scale, scientifically based and centrally controlled sanitary sistem, whose biggest effect in history was to eliminate or dramatically depower the periodic plagues which decimated peoples in the past. The use of medical herbs, altough too often understated, did not achieve this feat.

Medical herbs could be a nice ancient age tech though, provided it comes with some significant but not dramatic effect. One extra 0.2 health per forest?

 

[gettingfat]

Contraception is a very interesting suggestion. The possible gameplay effect could be that city growth stops (with the granary full) the moment you reach the happiness limit of your cities. Or grant an extra health, or happiness, or both. Other ideas on effects?

Medical herbs could be a nice ancient age tech though, provided it comes with some significant but not dramatic effect. One extra 0.2 health per forest?

Contraception - +10% hammer (increased production from woman suffrage), +2 happiness , pop growth rate halved once exceeds happiness cap. These bonuses are temporarily stopped when switched to slavery and/or theocratic

The health bonus for herbal should also applies to jungles.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Contraception is a very interesting suggestion. The possible gameplay effect could be that city growth stops (with the granary full) the moment you reach the happiness limit of your cities. Or grant an extra health, or happiness, or both. Other ideas on effects?



Medical herbs were used in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, too.

I feel "medicine" is a codeword for large-scale, scientifically based and centrally controlled sanitary sistem, whose biggest effect in history was to eliminate or dramatically depower the periodic plagues which decimated peoples in the past. The use of medical herbs, altough too often understated, did not achieve this feat.

Medical herbs could be a nice ancient age tech though, provided it comes with some significant but not dramatic effect. One extra 0.2 health per forest?

Contraception - +10% hammer (increased production from woman suffrage), +2 happiness , pop growth rate halved once exceeds happiness cap. These bonuses are temporarily stopped when switched to slavery and/or theocratic

The health bonus for herbal should also applies to jungles.

Why on earth would you want to stop or slow the pop growth rate when you reach the happiness cap? That's a disadvantage so I don't know why you both call it a bonus (though Zongo didn't say it explicitly).

 

[Zongo]

Why on earth would you want to stop or slow the pop growth rate when you reach the happiness cap? That's a disadvantage so I don't know why you both call it a bonus (though Zongo didn't say it explicitly).

That would mimic a bit the demographic problem of all post-industrial societies, without being so bad that players avoid the tech as hell. More of a "fun-factor" than an advantage, that's why I proposed some collateral bonuses, too. In particular, I liked the trade-off between happiness, which is usually not a problem in the late game, and healthiness, which is. So I would go for: +1 health, growth stops at max happiness (with the granary FULL).

The health bonus for herbal should also applies to jungles.

Yep, I agree.

 

[Xenocrates]

I think cooking is somewhat important.

Also elevators to allow tall buildings.

And concrete.

And metal plating.

Also the discovery of sperm by Antoine van Leeuwenhoek is absolutely essential to reach evolution and genetics, but may be said to be included in optics/biology already).

I think the designers have done a grand job here actually.

I had the idea a few years ago that there should be different levels of some techs. Level 1 is sufficient to research onwards (make the non-tradeable follow up's optional for more diversity and apply bonuses to them).

Maths and the sciences are obvious choices for this. I think it would work. Also deciding your civ/leader after 1000 years would work too ('cept in multiplayer), instead of straight away.