Some forgotten-but-important technologies

[r_rolo1]

A few ideas....

The stirrup - made cavalry more effective and horse archers possible.

The keel - made ocean-going ships possible. I note that the Maoris, Micronesians and Vikings all had ocean-going ships well before Civ4's technology trees would allow them.

General staff - introduced around the time of Napoleon, made it possible to effectively coordinate multiple armies. In game terms, you might increase all ground movement by +1.

Telegraph/Telephone - made it possible to coordinate business and government across geographic distances more effectively. In game terms, it would reduce penalties for distant cities.

Fire, maybe?

And about the stirrup: There is a Scythian horseman statue from the VII century BC with it, but it looks that it was forgotten and reinvented by some Central Asian tribe in the III century AD.... And you don't need to know it to do a effective horseback riding: most of the ancient cavalries simply tied the horsemen feet one to another ( Numidians did it, as well as later roman ones ). Stirrup bring another and completely diferent thing: it stabilizes the horsemen enough for him to use the total kinetic thurst of the horseman + horse (+ armor ) in a aimed charge.... Mongols ( with their "parthian arrow" technics )didn't need that, but Sassandid, Bizantine ( with their version of the Parthian/Sassandid cataphrachs ) and West European did.....

 

[Diamondeye]

Not quite. That is precisely the point people here are discussing. Care to contribute with beefier arguments?

Why - everyone agrees that horseback riding grants the ability to create horse archers, who needs a stirrup to function. And the stirrup is mentioned in the citing that follows the teech aswell - it's not as if Firaxis hasn't thought of it.

Radio certainly not. You need Maxwell electromagnetic theory for that, which is not strictly required for the telegraph.

Electricity, maybe. That is, if we consider electric power and electric communication to be the same thing.

Obviously, we do, because else, electricity wouldn't give it's wonders (that require actual use of electricity).

 

[Kennigit]

Telegraph/Telephone - made it possible to coordinate business and government across geographic distances more effectively. In game terms, it would reduce penalties for distant cities.

I'd agree that this could have its own tech, rest I don't think so, regardless of it has the merit, because gameplay can't really add it well. Stirrup=horseback riding, nothing to put between sailing and optics for keel, and engineering adds movement bonus w/ railroads not that far off from middle ages.

 

[L4zXX0r]

When was Rome dominant, and when did it showed first its potential?
Moreover, central Asia was still technologically backward and nomadic, these scales are not really "big" in their context. It took some time to perfect the stirrup and then expand with its advantage, and again it took some time before some leader was born to make a political union of an hitherto chaotic domain.

In the mean time the idea spilled over to neighbouring countries (China) and tribes (Avars, Huns, etc) which somehow did not have the extreme cavalry focus of the Mongols, and so did not make the innovation shine to its full potential.

But of course, this is only one possible reconstruction. A romantic one, if you want.

Rome's dominance began after the Second Punic Wars around 200 BC, in my opinion. After several defeats, Scipio finally defeated Hannibal, and as part of the terms, Carthage had to give up it's rights to Spain and It's islands in the Med. Sea, and became an ally state of Rome (essentially a vassal.) This gave them utter dominance of the Med. Sea (except near Egypt). As far as it's potential, I'd say as soon as they formed a Republic and through off their last king, Superbus.

 

[TommyTankRush]

Did nobody watch Gladiator? The Roman cavalry charged heroically into a forest (perfect terrain for a cavalry charge, surely? Who needs 'tactics') - and they had stirrups.

And that was in about 50BC - you ignoramuses!

 

[L4zXX0r]

Did nobody watch Gladiator? The Roman cavalry charged heroically into a forest (perfect terrain for a cavalry charge, surely? Who needs 'tactics') - and they had stirrups.

And that was in about 50BC - you ignoramuses!

Because movies are always historically accurate!

 

[r_rolo1]

Did nobody watch Gladiator? The Roman cavalry charged heroically into a forest (perfect terrain for a cavalry charge, surely? Who needs 'tactics') - and they had stirrups.

And that was in about 50BC - you ignoramuses!

I must add to this to the previous poster: the action of Gladiator happens in the 180-190 AD ( Marcus Aurélius and Commodus in the same time period than Julius Ceasar ( that died in 44 BC ) ? )

 

[zenspiderz]

As far as keels go. This shouldn't have a tech of there own but they could be 'enabled' by construction for example. Keels would allow galleys/trimemes to enter ocean squares. Since you can't have ocean trade routes until astronomy this wouldn't allow massive overseas expansion as the absence of trade routes would make them prohibitively expensive and not useful for resource acquisition until astronomy. Instead it would just give some small tactical advantage in early naval warfare. This doesn't nerf caravels either as they are still faster and stronger and can enter closed borders, although giving caravels a speed boost to 4 move would be a good idea.

 

[lutzj]

A few ideas....

The stirrup - made cavalry more effective and horse archers possible.

The keel - made ocean-going ships possible. I note that the Maoris, Micronesians and Vikings all had ocean-going ships well before Civ4's technology trees would allow them.

General staff - introduced around the time of Napoleon, made it possible to effectively coordinate multiple armies. In game terms, you might increase all ground movement by +1.

Telegraph/Telephone - made it possible to coordinate business and government across geographic distances more effectively. In game terms, it would reduce penalties for distant cities.

Each of these has an in-game equivalent

Stirrup: Stirrups and other horse-related technology are embodied by Horseback Riding

Keel: Sailing? The "ocean-going" ships you mentioned were sailing on the CivIV equivalent of coast, although the re-introduction of the Sea tile could improve this...

General Staff: Either Military Science or Military Tradition, take your pick.

Telegraph/Telephone: Early electronic devices such as these are grouped together in the catchall Electricity tech

How on earth would alphabet come under this definition? There's more than one alphabet. The ancient egyptians had their own way before the Phoenicians, as did the chinese. The mayans had an alphabet all of their own too.

Those weren't alphabets... they were logograms, or character-based forms of writing. There is a huge difference.Click here to read more

 

[cthom]

the discovery of alcohol had a pretty profound impact, although it too has an in-game equivalent- ctd.

 

[abuaftab]

The Phoenicians were the inventers of the first alphabet. The Chinese and Egyptians didn't invent an alphabet although they had writing some time earlier. Yes alphabet is a once off invention that has been copied ever since...

 

[lutzj]

The Phoenicians were the inventers of the first alphabet. The Chinese and Egyptians didn't invent an alphabet although they had writing some time earlier.

My point exactly. That's why Writing and Alphabet are separate techs

 

[ejvandekaa]

I personally always missed ballon (flight). As to me this seems as one of the earlyest forms of flight posible. I mean that you only need to create a ballon and a basket below that to be able to fly (givving the advantage of
1. seeing further
2. transport up/over mountains
3. transport over water)

It would be a developement that could be invented quite soon.

Evertjan van de Kaa

 

[Zongo]

Why - everyone agrees that horseback riding grants the ability to create horse archers, who needs a stirrup to function. And the stirrup is mentioned in the citing that follows the teech aswell - it's not as if Firaxis hasn't thought of it.

This is a thread about discussing new techs, or about the split up of too coarse techs, implying a change of the current game tree.
I find it slightly onirical that you base your arguments on "current state" and "universal agreement".

Obviously, we do, because else, electricity wouldn't give it's wonders (that require actual use of electricity).

That would have to do, again, with the concepts of "bundling" inventions into technologies, or let them go alone for the sake of gameplay.

Subtler or more honest arguments would be welcome...

 

[Aztec Priest]

Without the concept of zero, algebra is impossible. Greece did not have the concept, so its great mathematicians could not do much beyond geometry. No positional representation of numbers, no differential calculus. Again, the concept of zero was invented in India, passed to Persia and to the Arab world, and then to Europe. What europeans call "the arab numbers" 0, 1, 2, 3, ..., 251,... are actually Indian.
There should be a new tech called "algebra" between mathematics and scientific method.

So let's give credit to at least ONE of the awesome inventions of India and put it in the game, shall we? On the other hand, I would add the Phoenicians civ, who invented the alphabet...

I believe the Mayans independently discovered the concept of zero. I'm not sure if it was founded before or after India. You have to consider the Native American civilizations when determining whether or not a tech was "passed on". A lot of the discoveries were founded independently in the America's.

 

[Zongo]

I believe the Mayans independently discovered the concept of zero. I'm not sure if it was founded before or after India. You have to consider the Native American civilizations when determining whether or not a tech was "passed on".

AFAIK, no. Precisely. In India it should be due to Aryabhata, 476-550 AD. If you are not happy with him, then have a look to a more ambiguous statement here on the unique paternity of positional representation.

 

[Aztec Priest]

AFAIK, no. Precisely. In India it should be due to Aryabhata, 476-550 AD. If you are not happy with him, then have a look to a more ambiguous statement here on the unique paternity of positional representation.

According to Wikipedia:


Mathematics

Mayan numerals In common with the other Mesoamerican civilizations, the Maya used a base 20 (vigesimal) and base 5 numbering system (see Maya numerals). Also, the preclassic Maya and their neighbors independently developed the concept of zero by 36 BC. Inscriptions show them on occasion working with sums up to the hundreds of millions and dates so large it would take several lines just to represent it. They produced extremely accurate astronomical observations; their charts of the movements of the moon and planets are equal or superior to those of any other civilization working from naked eye observation.

 

[r_rolo1]

Without the concept of zero, algebra is impossible. Greece did not have the concept, so its great mathematicians could not do much beyond geometry. No positional representation of numbers, no differential calculus. Again, the concept of zero was invented in India, passed to Persia and to the Arab world, and then to Europe. What europeans call "the arab numbers" 0, 1, 2, 3, ..., 251,... are actually Indian.
There should be a new tech called "algebra" between mathematics and scientific method.

So let's give credit to at least ONE of the awesome inventions of India and put it in the game, shall we? On the other hand, I would add the Phoenicians civ, who invented the alphabet...

( bolded are mine )

In spite of almost everything you said is true, you are confusing the concept of zero with a symbol for the concept of zero. Indians should be credited for the second, but Greeks and Roman knew the concept of zero... Just look at Archimedes works about the value of pi .... or for the simple existance of the latin word "nullum" and his use by Diogenes in the calculation of the easter day ( that incidentaly pinpointed a completely arbitrary date for the birth of Christ, just for his calculations beat well with the vigent Theology )...

If you wanted another nice example of India's contribution for the modern world, you could say that steel was invented in India..... It would be less controversial and more true

 

[Diamondeye]

This is a thread about discussing new techs, or about the split up of too coarse techs, implying a change of the current game tree.
I find it slightly onirical that you base your arguments on "current state" and "universal agreement".

Subtler or more honest arguments would be welcome...

I am trying to be honest and subtle from now on, point taken, but I'd weight HBR as one of the least coarse techs - why split it?

And does anyone in here argue against the fact that HBR gives HAs?

 

[abuaftab]

Concept of zero is one thing, having a symbol for it is another, and actually developing the base 10 number system is yet another.