Some ideas I got from MoM. Modders, PLEASE read!

[civfan613]

I played a bit of Master of Mana today.
It has equipment "promotions" quite a lot, so why don't C2C have it???
It definitely would fit into the game and enrich it a lot.
Also, while there is a "magic" secondary research line in MoM, C2C could also use it for some other ideas.
Like "unconventional application" or something - even as afar as "alternative reality science".
OR for researching EQUIPMENT/PROMOTIONS.
Would be fun to have items separated from the building/unit research.
Or you could even make THREE separate science lines: Buildings/Units, Equipment/Promotions, Civics/Events or something.
Same goes for the "special resources" like metal and wood, that are used there for equipment.
C2C could so use that system...
And with a simple UI tinkering, you could actually switch ALL resources into CUMULATIVE turn-based states, not just ON/OFF/FEW like it's now.
THAT would be a great upgrade for the mod (especially since you have a precedent you CAN "copy" from), I really think so.
What do YOU think about all these ideas???

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think we're 75% there towards implementing equipment. Some of the ideas there are included, others not. Some may be included later in future developments. For now, the only reason they aren't in the game yet is due to labor volume and time availability.

 

[civfan613]

Nice.

 

[Hydromancerx]

As TB said its definitely on our radar and will have our own C2C spin on it.

 

[civfan613]

It's a pleasure to hear, cause these effects would really improve the mod, especially if you actually implement it on its big scale.
Equipment would make more sense than some promotions - or definitely add to the fun.
And having stackable resources that actually grow in time, would make my day.
Really looking forward to seeing it in C2C!!!

 

[strategyonly]

Now dont get too disappointed now, if its not in the next or even next 2-3 versions, ok, it will take awhile, plus there are numerous projects each of us are doing, and only little time to do with C2C. (All volunteers/RL)

 

[civfan613]

I'm a bit confused, why it wasn't a part of your plans to begin with - cause MoM is pretty old, while the (equipment and stackable resources) ideas are really cool and easy to either implement or simply copy from MoM...
Maybe I'm looking at it too simplified, but there's a difference between doing from scratch (like Multi-Maps, which MUST take a long time to INVENT) and simply copying from an existing example (like in this case, where there is a working mod already, which can be copied and implemented).
Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude - I'm just kinda surprised...

 

[Thunderbrd]

The main hangup is AI. Never underestimate how complex the AI will be to correctly implement what otherwise seems like a simple idea. Plus... the plan is not to go lightly with equipment but to go quite detailed. This means weapons, armors, tools, mounts, poisons, and a hell of a lot of research to back all that up. It's not going to be an overnight inclusion and some don't even want it so it will be in an optional section, the frame of which still has yet to be established. There are other steps leading into equipment that will make some of those equipment issues make more sense - further animal developments and Combat Class establishments for example.

You didn't think we'd do this the easy way did you?

 

[strategyonly]

Its not that simple.
FfH/MoM etc have a very complex equipment system, it has ALOT dealing with python, and i really mean ALOT.
Whereas the one C2C wants from what i am guessing isnt even 1/2 as complex as that, but really hard to implement even still, though C2C new Expression/Outcome system that is implements (I might be wrong)
The person more dealing on that for C2C i believe is TB, but i am not too sure on that either, it past my recollection, sorry, i will let him say something if he wants, sorry. )oops he posted before i did, well just read his post and thx at least for posting a question(s)!

 

[Thunderbrd]

For more info, check out this thread. The second half of the first post goes over most equipment overview BUT there's more that's been done for it since that post was made so its a little out of date.

The rest of the Combat Mod posts will explain a lot more about the plans surrounding this issue.

 

[civfan613]

And what about stackable resources?
Is it as complex to implement as equipments???

Anyways, thanks a lot for actually answering my questions - and let's hope that one day in the not-too-far future, we'll be able enjoy an even better version of our most favorite mod.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'm a bit confused, why it wasn't a part of your plans to begin with - cause MoM is pretty old, while the (equipment and stackable resources) ideas are really cool and easy to either implement or simply copy from MoM...
Maybe I'm looking at it too simplified, but there's a difference between doing from scratch (like Multi-Maps, which MUST take a long time to INVENT) and simply copying from an existing example (like in this case, where there is a working mod already, which can be copied and implemented).
Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude - I'm just kinda surprised...

As the others have said, the implementation in MoM is in Python what we try and do is move as much as we can into XML for increased flexibility and extension.

What is "stackable resources"?

 

[AIAndy]

As the others have said, the implementation in MoM is in Python what we try and do is move as much as we can into XML for increased flexibility and extension.

Most of the equipment implementation in MoM is in the DLL, not Python.

 

[civfan613]

Stackable, as in resource-per-turn warehouse-style.
Like for example, if you have 5 Iron Ore map resources, you can accumulate a max of 100 Iron Ore in your resource warehouse, which would take you 20 turns.
And then you can use 50 Iron Ore to first smith it into 10 Iron Ingots, then into 2 Iron Axes, then equip them onto your units, one per unit.
MoM gives enough examples to understand this - I just want it to apply to all sorts of resources that C2C provides.
This would make a lot more sense to have and use multiple on-map (or building-provided) resources, unlike now it only being somewhat useful for guilds and few specific buildings.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Volumetric resources is something we've tossed around a bit and I strongly feel we should eventually implement but a suitable proposal has never been made. There's a modder on the site in the main threads that was attempting something along those lines and we do have access to his source code and may seek to see if there's anything there we can use. But we also have some other ideas as to how it may be done properly. So its an 'eventual' probability that something like it will be in the game just no time in the near future.

 

[civfan613]

Happy about eventual, but sad about no near future...
Sorry for bothering.

 

[AIAndy]

Volumetric resources is something we've tossed around a bit and I strongly feel we should eventually implement but a suitable proposal has never been made. There's a modder on the site in the main threads that was attempting something along those lines and we do have access to his source code and may seek to see if there's anything there we can use. But we also have some other ideas as to how it may be done properly. So its an 'eventual' probability that something like it will be in the game just no time in the near future.

The kind of accumulated (specific) resources that MoM has can already be done with the property system. And outcome missions can be used to give equipment promotions paid with that.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Most of the equipment implementation in MoM is in the DLL, not Python.

maybe I am thinking of the wrong mod.

Stackable, as in resource-per-turn warehouse-style.
Like for example, if you have 5 Iron Ore map resources, you can accumulate a max of 100 Iron Ore in your resource warehouse, which would take you 20 turns.
And then you can use 50 Iron Ore to first smith it into 10 Iron Ingots, then into 2 Iron Axes, then equip them onto your units, one per unit.
MoM gives enough examples to understand this - I just want it to apply to all sorts of resources that C2C provides.
This would make a lot more sense to have and use multiple on-map (or building-provided) resources, unlike now it only being somewhat useful for guilds and few specific buildings.

We have not seen a volumetric resource system that works well and is transferable to the C2C resource system. Lets face it we have resources that are used to create other resources so the system would have to convert between based on the buildings efficiency and on user needs. Copper Ore produces Copper Ingots which can be used for copper wares or with Tin for bronze or with zinc for brass. All of which are used by units or buildings.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The kind of accumulated (specific) resources that MoM has can already be done with the property system. And outcome missions can be used to give equipment promotions paid with that.

I figured the property system would eventually be used for that purpose, yes.

As for paying for equipment promos with it, have you read the extensive coding that has been done so far for equipments? I'm thinking that it would become necessary to implement any expenses on equipments through the pathways already defined there so I'm not sure how outcome missions would help us in this regard.

Currently, the majority of the equipment system is automatic in terms of ensuring that units are given the best they have local access to. Cities gain access to equipment promos it may offer and if its the best the unit can get of that 'type' then the unit will automatically pick it up from the city that provides its access. Not entirely unlike the way picking up the Bamboo Armor promo works now, just more advanced... if the unit is wearing bamboo armor and a better armor in the same class comes up for grabs in the city they are in, that new better armor will automatically then replace the Bamboo Armor.

It is also assumed that any revenues derived from taxation of sales on new equipments is equally compensated by any military needs for those equipments.

The only decisions that players must make with the equipment system is if they want their units to switch between equally useful equipments that fill the same role (such as between chain mail and bamboo armor OR flaming arrows vs flight arrows vs sheaf arrows vs poisoned arrows.) And even the choice to make those changes costs nothing to the player.

If we wanted to implement a cost involved, it would have to mirror more of the upgrade mechanisms in charging its fees and the AI work would be far more intensive. But if we make resources volumetric, it would at least have to cost values in terms of resources, if not gold (at which point we may as well include gold costs as the AI work would be no worse at that time.)

 

[strategyonly]

Most of the equipment implementation in MoM is in the DLL, not Python.

I must have missed this one, i'll have to look for it, but the Rise of Erebus is alot of python, i informed TB about that in a post before. Or i might have looked at it wrong?