Some musings on the Colossus

[Kid R]

Remember that each citizen adds maintenence costs, which is about 1.5 .

Is this really true? If so the marginal profit on regular coast is 0.5 and Colossus coast 1.5 , thus tripling their value. That's starting to make the Colossus sound pretty powerful.

 

[obsolete]

I won't disagree that SciMeth is one of the worst techs in the game, however, it does open up 2 of the best techs in the game (Bio and Comunism) so I'm quite willing to give Firaxis a pass on it in the name of game balance. Losing a few monastaries and GPP (if you actually have TGL) is a small price to pay for access to boosted farms, workshops and 0 distance maintenance.



Computers nerfs science? It obsoletes a couple of wonders that you may/may not get if you are playing on a difficulty level that challenges you. Computers gives you the ability to build the Internet which does anything but nerf your science, and since tha AI doesn't prioritize computers it is a viable option at least up until Immortal.

Seems balanced enough to me.

It is becoming apparent, that you are doing something very wrong in your games.

 

[Iranon]

Maintenance and upkeep is hard to predict. Civic upkeep is 0.4 per citizen on low-cost civics, 0.6 on medium-cost civics. I don't know exact figures about maintenance, but 1.5 in total cost associated with one citizen seems high unless you have massive corporations.
Keep in mind that bigger cities result in more valuable trade routes and free military upkeep; in the endgame bigger may actually be better even without increased yields.

@ Cusanus: I'd put the intrinsic value of a scientist close to zero - trading 2 food for 6 science sounds like a fair deal, but you use up a citizen for the privilege. Other specialists may generate a small profit in themselves.

The big question is: what limites your growth? If it's your health and happy caps, they aren't attractive and just a way of using up a natural food surplus from resources or corporations. Maybe not even the best one.
1 post-biology farm and 1 specialist is usually worse than 2 direct-yield tiles. 2 post-biology farms and 2 specialist instead may not be worth the investment in cap-raising infrastructure even when such is available.
If, however, you're limited by land and have room to grow (many junk tiles, or filler cities squeezed in whereever possible), I think specialists a legitimate option in their own right... especially if not using corporations.

 

[SillyGoat]

It is becoming apparent, that I am doing something very wrong in my games.

Indeed.

If teching SciMeth or Computers is nerfing your research, you may want to consider a different approach as to how you get your beakers.

 

[bhavv]

Considering that it can be built from the very start of the game, I don't see what's wrong with its current obsoletion at Astro.

Besides, by that point in the game, the free monument isn't as significant, as there are many more ways to get culture.

Oh sorry, that was a typo, I meant that I thought collosus should obsolete with Sci Method, and GL with Physics.

 

[bhavv]

Computers doesnt nerf science, just the university of sankore which by then is just 2 per temple, and completely insignificant. The whole religious economy takes a hit - Uni of Sankore (fairly easy to build on Monarch+), Spiral Minaret (very difficult to build on Monarch+), and Angkor Wat (Average build difficulty).

But buy that time in the game, that +2 , , and extra from priests shouldnt really make hardly any difference.

 

[stopstopp]

Hardly and no difference are two very different things.

 

[Kid R]

Colossus also generates an early great merchant or two which means yet more

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Computers doesnt nerf science, just the university of sankore which by then is just 2 per temple, and completely insignificant. The whole religious economy takes a hit - Uni of Sankore (fairly easy to build on Monarch+), Spiral Minaret (very difficult to build on Monarch+), and Angkor Wat (Average build difficulty).

But buy that time in the game, that +2 , , and extra from priests shouldnt really make hardly any difference.

It is very difficult to build spiral minaret if you put off researching Divine Right.

It is not so difficult to build it if you go there reasonably early. It's also good trade bait, so if you have more than 1-2 AI in contact it's not a bad tech by any stretch, and gets additional consideration if you possess the AP religion or have sankore.

2 beakers/turn at base across 10 cities with ~100% research multipliers is in the order of 40 beakers/turn dropped at computers...but since cathedrals count too and you probably have an oxford city, it's probably closer to 50. If you can get a couple late techs of value (say you're heading for space) via internet off the AI computers ----> internet is probably stronger than retaining the religious boost.

Even if you're getting 50 gold and 50 beakers/turn from these wonders, late game techs are 1000's and 1000's of beakers. It's hard to imagine the cost of obsolescence being greater than the returns of even 2 useful technologies from internet, especially if the internet is also denied to the opposition. In blow-out games the tech and project are far less significant.

I guess they feel that information spread and scientific approaches lead to less and less dependence on religious-based research. I'm still not sure if it's appropriate, but since there ARE two paths to the needed space techs, from a balance standpoint at least there's some reason to ignore computers in some games, even if it doesn't arise much. Certainly, computers makes more sense than robotics usually, which is a shame...at one point in the game space elevator actually was useful.

Colossus is very very good while its bonuses last and is definitely underrated.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

It is very difficult to build spiral minaret if you put off researching Divine Right.

It is not so difficult to build it if you go there reasonably early. It's also good trade bait, so if you have more than 1-2 AI in contact it's not a bad tech by any stretch, and gets additional consideration if you possess the AP religion or have sankore.

2 beakers/turn at base across 10 cities with ~100% research multipliers is in the order of 40 beakers/turn dropped at computers...but since cathedrals count too and you probably have an oxford city, it's probably closer to 50. If you can get a couple late techs of value (say you're heading for space) via internet off the AI computers ----> internet is probably stronger than retaining the religious boost.

Even if you're getting 50 gold and 50 beakers/turn from these wonders, late game techs are 1000's and 1000's of beakers. It's hard to imagine the cost of obsolescence being greater than the returns of even 2 useful technologies from internet, especially if the internet is also denied to the opposition. In blow-out games the tech and project are far less significant.

I guess they feel that information spread and scientific approaches lead to less and less dependence on religious-based research. I'm still not sure if it's appropriate, but since there ARE two paths to the needed space techs, from a balance standpoint at least there's some reason to ignore computers in some games, even if it doesn't arise much. Certainly, computers makes more sense than robotics usually, which is a shame...at one point in the game space elevator actually was useful.

Colossus is very very good while its bonuses last and is definitely underrated.

If you did have the AP/Spiral/UofS trifecta it would probably be at around 100 of each a turn by that time since it enables a lot of expansion in the midgame - so 20-25 cities minimum probably plus cathedrals and multipliers running around 100%. So you are probably going to forego the equivalent of around 200 beakers a turn.

Usually if I pull off this combination on Immortal and below its game winning since the extra hammers plus extra gold and science mean I can pretty much keep warring indefinitely without sacrificing my tech position. (Its not always easy to pull off - the right leader and map is needed).

At 200 beakers a turn its definitely worth considering skipping and going straight for space without the Internet depending on your tech situation. But if you have the luxury of that decision then the game is really already won and you are playing for points.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you did have the AP/Spiral/UofS trifecta it would probably be at around 100 of each a turn by that time since it enables a lot of expansion in the midgame - so 20-25 cities minimum probably plus cathedrals and multipliers running around 100%. So you are probably going to forego the equivalent of around 200 beakers a turn.

Usually if I pull off this combination on Immortal and below its game winning since the extra hammers plus extra gold and science mean I can pretty much keep warring indefinitely without sacrificing my tech position. (Its not always easy to pull off - the right leader and map is needed).

At 200 beakers a turn its definitely worth considering skipping and going straight for space without the Internet depending on your tech situation. But if you have the luxury of that decision then the game is really already won and you are playing for points.

You sort of touched on my counter-point, and that is if my position is so commanding with a large city count and control of 3 of the religious building boost wonders, I'm probably not going to be thinking about going computers vs laser. I'm probably going to be thinking about standard war with a massive hammer advantage or nukes .

If you're running 20-25 cities space is still obviously an option, but military is usually more straightforward on standard maps at that point.

 

[vicawoo]

Every resource I've seen lists Spiral Minaret as +1 gold, not +2 gold.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

It used to be +1 gold but changed in a patch or when warlords came out. It's definitely listed in the warlords manual as a game change.

 

[mirthadir]

You sort of touched on my counter-point, and that is if my position is so commanding with a large city count and control of 3 of the religious building boost wonders, I'm probably not going to be thinking about going computers vs laser. I'm probably going to be thinking about standard war with a massive hammer advantage or nukes .

If you're running 20-25 cities space is still obviously an option, but military is usually more straightforward on standard maps at that point.

Ehh, you can often win faster heading to space than nuking the sprawling AI leader. If one AI controls about 50-55% of the land you can often get to space faster than you can either invade conventionally (particularly if it is overseas) or nuke (particularly if they have SDI and a high inland city count). Nuke razing their cap just before their spaceship arrives is a much better option than a long war if you have been playing catch up and know they won't be invading you.

More often it is AW than UoS that really hurts with computers. If I've gotten mass priests in an IW cap running sushi I can often make bake any losses going laser by hammering out parts faster.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ehh, you can often win faster heading to space than nuking the sprawling AI leader. If one AI controls about 50-55% of the land you can often get to space faster than you can either invade conventionally (particularly if it is overseas) or nuke (particularly if they have SDI and a high inland city count). Nuke razing their cap just before their spaceship arrives is a much better option than a long war if you have been playing catch up and know they won't be invading you.

More often it is AW than UoS that really hurts with computers. If I've gotten mass priests in an IW cap running sushi I can often make bake any losses going laser by hammering out parts faster.

Games where I BOTH have 20-25 cities myself AND there is an AI out there with 40% land or more are pretty damned rare. I wish I had the 25 cities in that situation more often...winning would actually be possible then .

I love nuke/raze AI cap, especially since you can buy out the next turn.

 

[bhavv]

It is very difficult to build spiral minaret if you put off researching Divine Right.

It is not so difficult to build it if you go there reasonably early. It's also good trade bait, so if you have more than 1-2 AI in contact it's not a bad tech by any stretch, and gets additional consideration if you possess the AP religion or have sankore.

That would be why then. I always put off researching divine right, although I usually always want the University of Sankore in my GL city (I never get GL on Immortal difficulty though, I dont think its possible).

One thing I dont like is GP points, I only want GM + GS points in my Beuro capital, but the Spiral Minaret and Uni of Sankore are very huge boosts.

Also, as you said that the Uni of Sankore may provide around 40-50 BPT, on the end game techs which are very expensive, this usually doesnt even boost the tech rate by 1 turn.

The wonders go obsolete for game mechanic / strategy reasons anyway, not for realistic reason. Having GLH, Collosus, GL, AP, UoS, and SM working all throughout the game would be quite a bit too powerful if you manage to build them all.

 

[stopstopp]

Maintenance and upkeep is hard to predict. Civic upkeep is 0.4 per citizen on low-cost civics, 0.6 on medium-cost civics. I don't know exact figures about maintenance, but 1.5 in total cost associated with one citizen seems high unless you have massive corporations.

Have you taken into consideration inflation?

 

[mirthadir]

Games where I BOTH have 20-25 cities myself AND there is an AI out there with 40% land or more are pretty damned rare. I wish I had the 25 cities in that situation more often...winning would actually be possible then .

I love nuke/raze AI cap, especially since you can buy out the next turn.

These tend to be those "I kill off my landmass, you kill off your landmass, and you have insane bonuses so you get faster". If someone like Hannibal or Ragnar manages to consolidate about 50% of the landmass, then I'm either going to nuke them down or play the space race game.

Even with small empires, going to space with laser is often superior if you are using heavy AW priests (e.g. a strong Sushi), particularly in the cap.

Bhavv:

UoS can go anywhere, the bonus it gives resides with the individual building, not the wonder. Maybe your TGL city needs the gpp, but otherwise it really doesn't matter.

Also, you can easily play the whole game out to any victory condition without killing AP, UoS, and SM. GLH can be kept alive until you need corporation (rare) or AL (much more common). Running around with rifles, arty, and fighters/bombers is enough to win even a few dominations on Diety. As far as I can tell, there was no strategic balancing in deciding when wonders died

 

[JammerUno]

Somewhere in this thread people lost track of the collossus issue. I'll say this, it's cheap, it helps your bpt quite a bit when regrowing whipped pop in hammer poor coastal sites, and I only build it in isolation since oracle > MC becomes very attractive in that situation. Otherwise the AI can have it.

Also, ROI seems to be overlooked here, breakeven point should be corrected for inflation on bpt, and natural growth/fall of bpt caused by the wonder. I won't follow Grashoppa in the assumption that no MC makes for an earlier CS cap: MC's useful tradefodder, probably cutting back as much time as you spend getting it.

Still wouldn't build it when I'm not in isolation though.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Somewhere in this thread people lost track of the collossus issue. I'll say this, it's cheap, it helps your bpt quite a bit when regrowing whipped pop in hammer poor coastal sites, and I only build it in isolation since oracle > MC becomes very attractive in that situation. Otherwise the AI can have it.

Also, ROI seems to be overlooked here, breakeven point should be corrected for inflation on bpt, and natural growth/fall of bpt caused by the wonder. I won't follow Grashoppa in the assumption that no MC makes for an earlier CS cap: MC's useful tradefodder, probably cutting back as much time as you spend getting it.

Still wouldn't build it when I'm not in isolation though.

My most common gambit for collosus is if I build the Great Lighthouse - chances are then my first great person is a Merchant - and at that time Metal Casting is the likely lightbulb tech - at least until I research Alphabet. Self researching metal casting is not going to beat the AI for me - and getting Oracle is something I rarely do any more.

In isolation this isn't so good - the trade routes from Great Lighthouse aren't as useful and the Collosuss will obsolete fairly early. But it does help cover the REX costs and I will usually consider it with a coastal capital especially if I see offshore islands as settling a couple of these will double the value of my internal trade routes and also mean working a lot of coastal tiles will come naturally.

Having these two wonders in your capital means lots of merchants - you want to balance with a source of scientists as soon as possible or you will miss out on an academy and that tends to hurt. Currency is a reasonable bulb for your second merchant - and the third should probably be held for Sushi.