Some preliminary planning for DGVII

That's part of the challenge Dave - you need to keep up with only 5 cities.

I had forgotten about a 5CC. I think it is actually a very nice idea. And Strider, I bet it would have more roleplay. Less cities, more focus on each one.

We definately need to notch the difficulty up a little bit...

Or we could try a: Cold, 3 billion, Arid, 80% Archipelago, strongest barbarians map. That would be a challenge.
 
As I will say before and Ill say it again. We should not use mods for the next demogame. Since if you use say Rhye's or the DYP mod, you would also be forcing people who still has a 56k modem to download a heafty file which would take forever.

On regards to 5CC (and other #CC), I do not like that variant since it will restrict you to how many cities you can build and where to build them. In a 5CC, once you have your cities inplace, you cannot disband the city after so many pop points in the event a resource pops up (after a discovery of a tech) and resettle there. OCC is also a bad Idea, since it would be the same situation as the 5CC but with only one city.
 
Strider said:
How about, instead of being abunch of copycats, we can do something orginal. 5cc has been done before, many many times. There has even been a demogame once already that has done it.

I say we attempt one of the following:

Spaceship:
Turn off all victory conditions except Space
Science slider must remain at 0% the entire game.
We can not use any scientist/researchers.

Military:
Turn off all victory conditions except Domination and Conquest
Must have an army smaller than 40 units the whole game.

Diplomatic:
Turn off all victory coniditions except diplomacy
Must eliminate 5 civilizations before the end of the game

Culture:
Turn of all victory conditions except Culture
May not declare war, and if war is declared on us we many not take any offensive.

------------------

I doubt anybody has ever attempted the above. 5cc is utterly boring and useless. Those who are new to the game will be scared off at the idea of it, and the veterns would have done it already. If were going to choose any varient, lets go with one that actually has a chance of drawing people in.
a 5CC has never been done in a civ3 demogame before...
 
CivGeneral said:
As I will say before and Ill say it again. We should not use mods for the next demogame. Since if you use say Rhye's or the DYP mod, you would also be forcing people who still has a 56k modem to download a heafty file which would take forever.

On regards to 5CC (and other #CC), I do not like that variant since it will restrict you to how many cities you can build and where to build them. In a 5CC, once you have your cities inplace, you cannot disband the city after so many pop points in the event a resource pops up (after a discovery of a tech) and resettle there. OCC is also a bad Idea, since it would be the same situation as the 5CC but with only one city.
a 5CC doesnt force us to put our cities anywhere... there is no rule against disbanding cities either...
on a normal map, a 5CC is a challenge but not extremely tought...
 
DaveShack said:
5CC: I have absolutely no idea how to survive a true 5CC even into the middle ages. How do you even build enough units for the AI's not to see you as easy meat? Is suspect the only people who actually win this variant are the ones who think Sid level is easy. This is supposed to be fun for the average DGer? Now if you're talking 5 Built City where capturing and keeping AI cities is allowed, that's a little better and would have forced us into the early Indian war this game.

Of course there's the idea that we could lose a demogame, in which case 5CC would be a wonderful idea.

[edit]Above comments of course assume we're talking normal sized maps like large and huge... I can obviously see how 5CC wouldn't be as big a deal on small and tiny. :p [/edit]
I usually play 5CCs on normal maps, I can win on regent pretty easily(I only play on monarch)...

in fact, your first 5 cities often account for more than half of your shields and commerce...
 
Black_Hole said:
a 5CC has never been done in a civ3 demogame before...

Not on a CFC demogame, but there is more demogames than just this one.
 
Strider, why do you have to be so steadfastly pessimistic?
I appreciate your suggestions and value what you have done for the game, but it seems to me that any time you hear a suggestion you don't like you immediately attempt to shut it out and make it so that anyone who brings it up again is pounced on by your nay-saying. We should poll the 5CC.
So what if other sites DGs have done it? If anything, it would allow for more story lines.
a 5CC would be fun. Heck, we could work in one of your variations. A no-research space race 5CC would put alot of focus on trading and counteract the small number of cities.

In conclusion: Listen to ideas before you reject them. And thats for everyone.

and play nice

SaaM
 
Strider said:
Not on a CFC demogame, but there is more demogames than just this one.

Stuck, I think that all Strider was saying is that there may have been a 5cc game played elsewhere but not here. I didn't see anything pessimistic about this comment.
 
Stuck_as_a_Mac said:
Strider, why do you have to be so steadfastly pessimistic?

Pessimistic about what? 5cc's are nothing new, and they off nothing to the demogame. As I said before, to the newer players a 5cc sounds to challanging. Daveshack, who it sounds like hasn't played one, is a perfect example of this. So, there goes our chances of bringing in new players (new as in new to the game of Civ3) is gone.

While alot of the more vetern players (once again to Civ3, not the demogame) has already played, and likely beaten a 5cc. So it's rather boring to them. So there goes are chance to get the vetern players in the game.

So, in the end what do we gain from doing a 5cc? Roleplay? We don't gain anything from roleplay. Hell, the roleplay that I see currently that "claims" to be DG1 style roleplaying, isn't even that. What happened to Ehecatls diplomatic mission, turned into a gut-wrenching and exciting escape? Examples of good roleplay stories (these actually are just teasers from a RPG module I'm making):

10 Years said:
The breeze picks up slightly as you make your way off the boat. The snow, the water, it all looks the same. Just like it was...

"It's been 10 years"

You jump in surprise, looking around quickly. You immediately find the source, an old man, a fisherman gone to seed. You look him over, noticing his wrinkled, deeply tanned skin. Slightly hunched over, with a balanced poise used to the rocking of a boat. The bright eyes, a yellow-green, almost sickening to look in. Eyes that, just, don't belong.

"Well, they've improved," you think smiling slightly, watching as the old man takes a few steps closer, offering his arm out to you for support. You quickly grab his arm, and both of you begin your journey down the dock. The dock, the same dock. Just like it was....

"It's been 10 years."

My Story said:
This is my story, or that's what they tell me anyway. Yet, how is this my story, and not my nightmare? Are stories not suppose to have happy endings, or was that just in the hundreds of books I read? Even if this somehow does end up as a happy ending, why can they not help me? Am I to be left here, alone? If they would have just helped me, this may all be differant. Argh, why can't they just help me?!

"Because, this is your story"

Oh, yeah, here comes the lectures again. Without even bothering to find the speaker, I replied "and if I choose not to go on?"

"Well, all stories must have an ending."

I gave a slight grunt of disgust, and looking up replied, "I have no choice though do I? I have to keep going! You've left me no choice! I can't stop, I have to keep going!"

"Irritating, I know, or is that fear?"

We need to stop changing something every damn game in the hope that it will somehow fix all of the problems were having. We need to locate the problems, and take acts to fix it otherwise. We changed the game around the last 3 demogames, and look at where we are now. Only 3 contested poistions? That's horrible, and were going to attempt to revititalize the game by a 5cc challange?

Stuck_as_a_Mac said:
I appreciate your suggestions and value what you have done for the game, but it seems to me that any time you hear a suggestion you don't like you immediately attempt to shut it out and make it so that anyone who brings it up again is pounced on by your nay-saying. We should poll the 5CC.

So, I am no longer allowed to disagree? Great democracy this has become. :rolleyes:

Stuck_as_a_Mac said:
So what if other sites DGs have done it? If anything, it would allow for more story lines. A 5CC would be fun. Heck, we could work in one of your variations. A no-research space race 5CC would put alot of focus on trading and counteract the small number of cities.

My point was, that a 5cc is boring. I've played many of them, while not in an environment exactly like this one, an SG is close enough to get a fairly decent estimate. They are not fun in any form or fashion, there utterly boring.
 
Strider, I like some of your ideas but they don't seem complete because you seems to be witholding a lot of them. While you may be good at identifying flaws of other ideas, I have yet to see you fill the holes you found.

To All,
I have only been in one demogame and its this one. Therefore I don't know what it is like the last 5 games other than what I read in the archives. I noticed a lot of activity more than this demogame. In fact, I noticed very little RPG this game that I didn't take part of any. Bring back RPG and a few other fun elements are great but the other non fun stuff needs to be changed or removed.

One of my observation is that the constitution seems to be remade each and every demogame. Why not have constitution that stands for every demogame, even for Civ4 or any other TBS game. The idea is that we can focus on having fun than complain about some flaw every week. One of the boring part is that it appears only the President get to play the save every turnchat unless he/she is unable to attend. Being an elected governor, having to post instructions and wait for the DP to do them is pointless when I can do it myself and give the DP the save. Another thing that been mention is the massive use of number crunching. I rather reduce our focus in trying to win when we already have the game in hand to trying to have fun and win by any means.

The numerous suggestions to play a modpack or a variant of rules to play by indicates that people wish to avoid the mundane number crunching and obvious victory when it should be difficult the whole way.

So in all, for DGVII to be successful, we need to go back to the point where demogames were fun and successful and build off from there than to try and fix all the problems we made after that point.
 
About 5cc adding more roleplay (I never went into it in my above post):

I'm one of the biggest roleplayers you will ever meet. I've played almost every single Pen & paper RPG you can find (among my favoriates are Rifts, D&D, Shadowrun, and World of Darkness). I'll rate any of the KOTOR, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quests, etc. above Civ3 ever. Hell, when I found out they were making a video game based on the D&D world (Neverwinter Nights) I didn't sleep the whole night I was so excited.

A 5cc challange may offer more Roleplay by city, but there is alot more than just cities. So, our entire roleplay will be based on who's city is better? Is it just me, or does that seem alittle irritating? There is alot more roleplay than just cities, and we shouldn't focus on just it. If you really want to do a "this place is better than this one" fight than we can easily do it with provinces. With a 5cc challange you limit roleplaying drastically.

If anyone excepts any of my varients, than there obviously not thinking forward by far, (for roleplaying anyway). Notice that every varient I propose destroys or severly limits or section of roleplay. Why did I propose them then? Well, for one they may draw in alot of the vetern players, who are just trying to do something amazingly difficult. The second reason was just to see people's reaction to them.

To create a "healthy" demogame environment, all of my proposals would need major improvements and changes. If that's even possible, even I think there horribly messed up for this type of Civ3. Forethought, whenever you look at something think "what would be all of the possible pros and cons of ??? to the game"?

Getting back on the topic of roleplay now. We can't limit the roleplaying factor of the game to just cities, we have to leave open options for variety. Remember, this is a game that relies solely on partcipation. So, what if someone prefers to roleplay a mock civilwar?

We currently have 4 governors, and two of the governor spots went without an accepted nominations. A 5cc will give us five governors almost immediantly into the game, and you expect us to fill all five of them?
 
Double Stack said:
Strider, I like some of your ideas but they don't seem complete because you seems to be witholding a lot of them. While you may be good at identifying flaws of other ideas, I have yet to see you fill the holes you found.

What holes are you talking about? I believe I offered some advice on each subject I pointed out. If you will, please quote me with what you want filled in and I'll do it.
 
Strider said:
About 5cc adding more roleplay (I never went into it in my above post):

I'm one of the biggest roleplayers you will ever meet. I've played almost every single Pen & paper RPG you can find (among my favoriates are Rifts, D&D, Shadowrun, and World of Darkness). I'll rate any of the KOTOR, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quests, etc. above Civ3 ever. Hell, when I found out they were making a video game based on the D&D world (Neverwinter Nights) I didn't sleep the whole night I was so excited.

A 5cc challange may offer more Roleplay by city, but there is alot more than just cities. So, our entire roleplay will be based on who's city is better? Is it just me, or does that seem alittle irritating? There is alot more roleplay than just cities, and we shouldn't focus on just it. If you really want to do a "this place is better than this one" fight than we can easily do it with provinces. With a 5cc challange you limit roleplaying drastically.

If anyone excepts any of my varients, than there obviously not thinking forward by far. (for roleplaying anyway). Notice that every varient I propose destroys or severly limits or section of roleplay. Why did I propose them then? Well, for one they may draw in alot of the vetern players, who are just trying to do something amazingly difficult. The second reason was just to see people's reaction to them.

To create a "healthy" demogame environment, all of my proposals would need major improvements and changes. If that's even possible, even I think there horribly messed up for this type of Civ3. Forethought, whenever you look at something think "what would be all of the possible pros and cons of ??? to the game"?

Getting back on the topic of roleplay now. We can't limit the roleplaying factor of the game to just cities, we have to leave open options for variety. Remember, this is a game that relies solely on partcipation. So, what if someone prefers to roleplay a mock civilwar?

We currently have 4 governors, and two of the governor spots went without an accepted nominations. A 5cc will give us five governors almost immediantly into the game, and you expect us to fill all five of them?
early in the game it will be easy to fill the governors, when it is most needed... also many people would become governor, because instead of managing 10 cities they only need to manage 1 which means much less work...
 
Black_Hole said:
early in the game it will be easy to fill the governors, when it is most needed... also many people would become governor, because instead of managing 10 cities they only need to manage 1 which means much less work...

That's an estimation, and nothing we can count on for sure. We can't risk making all these nice little plans, only to find out they won't work because we don't have enough people. It alittle to early right now to get an accurate estimate though. So were see when it's closer to the start of the next game.
 
Strider said:
My point was, that a 5cc is boring. I've played many of them, while not in an environment exactly like this one, an SG is close enough to get a fairly decent estimate. They are not fun in any form or fashion, there utterly boring.
I would agree. A 5CC would be utterly boring to people who have no interest in it or have won playing a 5CC game so many times.

Strider said:
We currently have 4 governors, and two of the governor spots went without an accepted nominations. A 5cc will give us five governors almost immediantly into the game, and you expect us to fill all five of them?
This I also agree. A 5CC would only have 5 "mayoral governors, we have trouble filling our current provinces right now. Also, a 5CC would sevearly inhibit a grouth of a civilization by literaly denying itself stratigic resources that will be needed for military units. Imagen this scenario, we have built five cities in a ICS pattern, after the discovery of iron working we see that a source of iron has appeared but outside our borders. We would be forced to disban one of the cities and move closer to that resource. To me, that is a compleate waste to disban a city when it has been established with libraries and temples.

Black_hole said:
there is no rule against disbanding cities either...
on a normal map, a 5CC is a challenge but not extremely tought...
There is a rule set in the mechanics in the game that will not let you disban cities after the city population reaches a certan point.
 
On the subject of changing constitutions / rulesets, one thing that certain people seem to forget every time is that a majority voted for each change. Debate on what to change started up before the previous game finished, and included widespread participation. If the previous game was so perfect, then why did a majority consistently vote to change it?

I can't speak to the DG1->DG2 transition. After DG2 a majority thought the rules were too burerocratic. There were rules on who had to open a thread, when, and where. The contents of specific threads were written into the rules, and theoretically a PI (public investigation) could be started if someone forgot to dot their I's and cross their T's. (well, that's a bit of an exaggeration but hopefully it gets the point across... :crazyeye: )

The DG3 constitution bordered on the ultimate in simplicity. None of that low-level detail that people hated was included. Things were smooth sailing (generally at least) for two months. Then we elected a President who took the approach that if the law did not spell something out then there was no rule on the subject and thus the highest elected official (himself) could decide in the absense of input from others. All hell broke loose, with the equivalent of a mutiny where the other elected officials either refused to post instructions, or posted instructions which effectively tied the DP's hands. Moderator intervention was required to keep the game going. Don't forget however that a majority of the people, including many of the would-be mutineers, voted for the constitutional chanegs which opened the door for this crisis.

DG4 brought back some of the details from DG2 but not all. We also dabbled in combining offices in response to the observation that fewer elections in DG3 were contested than in earlier DGs. We started when the ruleset was not complete, which many people reacted to as though it was the first time, but in reality this was nothing new -- DG1 got a term or two in before there was a real ruleset, a fact which many people conveniently forgot. Again, a majority of the citizens voted for the DG4 rules.

DG5 was again more like DG2 with even more of the lower level procedures spelled out. We tried to reduce the political effect of PI's / CC's by making the associate justice positions non-specific instead of a JA and PD. We also added and removed offices during the game. DG5 was notable in that it once again started without a complete ruleset, and the first two terms were marred by controversy in the Judicial branch after poorly conducted elections (although correct according to the then-current law) left the makeup of the judiciary in limbo.

DG6 started out as being a minor tweak to the DG5 ruleset. A well-intentioned but not fully supported attempt to breathe life into the game by changing things around a bit resulted in the current "Strategic / Tactical" system. It didn't help matters that the founder of the system got hit by a mountain of responsibilities at work, maxing out with 18 hours a day of work time during the critical period when the Constitution should have been written. Efforts by others (which never did get the recognition they truly deserved BTW) came up short when the moderator-imposed deadline (in this case third time's NOTa charm) passed. Subsequent modifications to the rules brought the setup back to within a couple of minor differences between it and the "traditional" system, although the small number of remaining differences and the functional equivalency between this system and the old one has never been recognized by its detractors. The key thing to remember is that a (small) majority of citizens voted for the current system and when faced with a straight-up vote on changing it a larger majority voted to stay the course.

OK, now that this very high level, low detail history course is done, what do we need to do to make the next game work?

  • It would really help if the constitutional discussion didn't seem like a cage match contest to the death. We are where we are because key members of the 49% minority refused to do anything constructive to help the process before the game started. Saying (my paraphrase) "I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure this new idea doesn't work" is not conducive to interpersonal harmony, and probably frightened off a substantial number of potential players. The individual thus paraphrased will undoubtably say that is not what was meant, but the dictionary meanings of the words are clear enough. ;)
  • We need a setup which welcomes and maybe even enforces roleplay. Perhaps we need a "gentleman's (lady's) agreement" to not mention "CIV game" parameters directly, but to couch them in terms appropriate for the mock citizens.
  • We need to make the game itself easier to play. We get uncontested Presidential elections because most people don't fancy 3 hour (6 hour in the later game) play sessions. I offered a solution -- rotating DP assignments instead of having to sign up for a month of DP work. This got shouted down as a bad idea because it represented too big a change :eek: , but look at the biggest reason people decline nominations and it is clear that people don't have multiple days per week to dedicate to the game.
  • We need something other than an everyday game of Civ, to draw in a better mixture of new and old, experienced and inexperienced, Deity and Regent players. A fullpack mod might do the trick (if 10 people had modems I'd consider shipping them a CD with the mod -- but 100 is a bit much), so might some kind of multi-player game. A variant is less likely to be accepted because it will excite some people but totally alienate others.
  • We need to get even more serious about personal attacks. The provocateurs of the DG deserve as much scrutiny as their targets receive when the inevitable backlash occurs.
  • In the past certain individuals have had a tendency to unilaterally make very unpopular decisions which appeared to exceed their legal authority. At least one such "citizen+" has received advice on how to get the same thing done without pushing other peoples buttons, and seems to have taken the advice. Hopefully we won't get any mandates this time around which are not supported by a majority or a very large minority, and the correct messenger will be chosen for potentially unpopular decisions.
 
CivGeneral said:
I would agree. A 5CC would be utterly boring to people who have no interest in it or have won playing a 5CC game so many times.


This I also agree. A 5CC would only have 5 "mayoral governors, we have trouble filling our current provinces right now. Also, a 5CC would sevearly inhibit a grouth of a civilization by literaly denying itself stratigic resources that will be needed for military units. Imagen this scenario, we have built five cities in a ICS pattern, after the discovery of iron working we see that a source of iron has appeared but outside our borders. We would be forced to disban one of the cities and move closer to that resource. To me, that is a compleate waste to disban a city when it has been established with libraries and temples.


There is a rule set in the mechanics in the game that will not let you disban cities after the city population reaches a certan point.
first off, the idea that because veterans have played it alot means that they will not like it... I am pretty sure that veterans have played a regular game, MANY more times than a 5CC, so in your reasoning, normal games would bore them more than a 5CC... Also about resources, we can use colonies...
 
I nevered played a 5CC variant but I don't want to play it because it too limiting for a demogame and I believe it will make participation drop not because of interest because of lack of real challenge.

Having a demogame on Sid level and winning by any means is great. Just got to avoid the mundane Cultural victory again.
 
DaveShack said:
  • It would really help if the constitutional discussion didn't seem like a cage match contest to the death. We are where we are because key members of the 49% minority refused to do anything constructive to help the process before the game started. Saying (my paraphrase) "I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure this new idea doesn't work" is not conducive to interpersonal harmony, and probably frightened off a substantial number of potential players. The individual thus paraphrased will undoubtably say that is not what was meant, but the dictionary meanings of the words are clear enough. ;)


  • heh, I tried compromising.

    Strider said:
    ]I've yet to see any "compromise" that is actually a compromise, every single one I've seen INCLUDES EVERY ASPECT OF THE ALTERNATIVE GOVERNMENT.

    Strider said:
    I would work on a compromise solution myself, but I just got over 3 days of being sick, and I'm got to much on my plate as it is right now (homework mostly).

    Edit: Provolutions I see as a decent compromise, with some modifications I'll be pretty happy.

    Strider said:
    Both of you are doing what? Making half-ass suggestions and "compromises" so unfair that I have no other choice than to tell you "hell no?" The only thing I've seen from either of you is complaints about the start date or how we need to figure something out.

    How about for once one of you be constructive, sense you seem so intent to get me to do it. I've done my share of work with the tradational government, also likely introduced a few articles that will be used inside of the next game.

    Strider said:
    It is as simple as this, we need another month to make the rules. Starting the game when the rules are not complete will do nothing more than taking the fighting into the game itself. Instead of discussing where to place our next settler, we will still be fighting over the rules. There is nothing you can do about it CT, short of banning every single person inside of the demogame, the only reasonable and logical choice is to give us another month. Either that or were likely to take that month wether you like it or not.

    If we do get another month, we need to use it instead of waste our time on pointless discussions and half-assed compromises. Screw the damn timetables, they do nothing but waste our time making them. There seems to be no clear leader organizing anything this time, and that is where all of our confusion is stemming from.

    Expect a poll over which constitution we should use shortly after this post.

    Read my quotes from the compromise thread, why? Everyone else was utterly useless, I had to much on my hands already at that time to write up a compromise (and for anyone who wants to say that's just an excuse, let me point out that I did take time and effort later on to get Provolutions proposal pushed through). I was expecting someone else to write up a compromise that was fair and balanced, did it happen? Nope.

    Weird thing about that is, is every seemed to expect me to do EVERYTHING. What I though was rather funny, was that we did end up using alot of my changes in the current demogame constitution. Some kind of strange.

    You've already contractdicted yourself, you say we need to stop fighting. Yet you start shoving the past into others faces. Saying "The individual thus paraphrased will undoubtably say that is not what was meant, but the dictionary meanings of the words are clear enough." is not conductive to interpersonal harmony either, but hey, it's all part of the symmetry right? If every moment connects to the next and every moment affects you, then why potentially do something that won't connect?

    Look, I have said many, many times that I am not the one to be in a leadership role. I have anger problems, I've said that many times on here, and I'll repeat it once again. I am not the one to be thrusting into a leadership role every 3 seconds, yet, here I find myself again.

    I'm going to be sending you a PM shortly (after this post), that summarizes what I think we need to work on constitution wise. Over the next month we can work on a constitution together and have it ready for the discussion on the next game.

    DaveShack said:
    [*]We need to make the game itself easier to play. We get uncontested Presidential elections because most people don't fancy 3 hour (6 hour in the later game) play sessions. I offered a solution -- rotating DP assignments instead of having to sign up for a month of DP work. This got shouted down as a bad idea because it represented too big a change :eek: , but look at the biggest reason people decline nominations and it is clear that people don't have multiple days per week to dedicate to the game.

    That idea fell through because of lack of attention, not from opposition. I supported that idea from the start.
 
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