Some Preliminary Thoughts on a Mixed Economy

[iamdanthemansta]

I've been one of the more outspoken supporters of the Specialist Economy(SE), but one recent game has got me thinking. I was playing on Emperor and was somewhere in the middle of the pack when I realized just how good my relations were with the number one player. After a while I was able to get a permanent alliance with him and I noticed a few things about his economy. Unlike mine the AI had essentially cottage spammed. Now he was far ahead of me in tech, though he also had probably 50% more cities, but what really interested me was how his beakers broke down per city. My super science city(SSC) had about 550 beakers per turn, not really that good for me, he had maybe 250. But his second city was doing 180 and he had a bunch more in that ballpark. My second city on the other hand had only about 90 beakers and it dropped off pretty fast from there.

This all got me thinking about where the real strength of the SE lies. I've talked before about the advantages of the SE in terms of War and a Super Money City, though I'm not quite so sure about the war thing anymore. But where I looked back at most of my games I noticed that a huge percentage of my tech was coming from one city. Even late in the game I was getting like 40-50% of all my beakers from one city, though that could be about 1k beakers a turn. What was really interesting though was when I tried switching from Caste System to Emancipation my total beakers per turn didn't take a hit! In fact it went up by a very small number. The removal of the happiness penalty had basically made Emancipation more lucrative even with fewer scientists. I then looked at where in my SSC the beakers where coming from. What I discovered is that a large majority of those beakers where coming from Super Scientists(SS). I had at least 2 SS for every scientist, plus they generated 9 beakers instead of 6, after Pyramids.

This has some really interesting ramifications. If the strength of the SE is in the SSC and the strength of the CE is in the average city, there seems to be no reason why the strategies couldn't be combined. Simply run Representation and settle every GS in one city, which would also use as many normal specialists as possible, while cottaging every other city. Plus if you get the Pyramids you can use a more full fledged SE early while you wait for more mature cottages. This strategy also addresses some of the long standing problems with the SE. First, you don't 100% need the Pyramids. Sure there still good but you can always just be Representation the old fashioned way. Your SSC will still function fairly well, at like 70% till then. Moreover you can use some of the early SS to bulb techs to get there faster. Second this reinforces the power of Philosophical as the best early and mid game trait hands down. You can still run this without it, you just won't have things working very well early. This means that even if you go with a pure warfare strategy it's still probably best to base your SSC off of settled specialists since cottage will be immature early and even when they do mature a SC produces 9 beakers which are more then the commerce produced by a cottage with financial. Third, financial and philosophical can work together. This means the Elizabeth may have just vaulted to being the best leader in the game.

People might ask what the difference is between this and a pure CE in which you still would have a Great Person Farm (GPF). The difference is that the GPF is also the SSC and all the great people are settled back in the GPF/SSC. Some one might also ask why not just cottage the GPF/SSC, well the GPF need the GPP from the normal specialists to generate GP at a fast enough rate. Finally, you might ask what this looses over a pure CE or SE. Well it has fewer hammers then a pure CE, and probably generates less wealth then a pure CE. That being said this seems like a way to take the best aspects of a SE and add them to the predominate strategy. Just imagine a CE where your SSC gets 1k in beakers no matter what the tech rate is.

 

[Dark Myrmidon]

Awesome thread... Sounds like a viable strategy to me!

 

[Betafor]

Bookmark/z

sounds like a great idea (I could go on about how i had already thought of this but i deemed it stupid, but you wouldn't know if i was lying)

 

[Neo Guderian]

I came to this conclusion as well when I tested generating great scientists 'en masse'. I intentionally did not build any wonders as I wanted to test the viability of this strat without pyramids. The results were mediocre at best partially because I didn't get the science city up and running fast enough, but also because a bunch of level 6 or 7 cities aren't going to produce that many great people. You really need big cities to crank them out fast. Happiness at this time prevents alot of huge cities.

One key thing is that by settling super specialists (after bulbing philosophy) in one city is great for one reason that you mentioned: Science rate.

Early in the game, happiness (depending on difficulty, I play on monarch and some emperor) is a big issue and forces you to adopt hereditary rule, or beeline calendar. However, I found that if you grab alphabet, literacy, and then drama, you can tailor your entire happiness strategy based on theatres, colosseums, and broadcast towers.

While alot of people will scoff at this tactic because the intial reaction to 'loosing' commerce from science to culture, the net affect is a civ wide gain. Instead of having cities with a max pop of 9 or 10, you can easily pull off a max pop of 12 or 13 per 10% easily. This means you are affectively working more tiles and thus more cottages, mines, and farms.

Furthermore, your science isn't going to suffer very much because all of those super scientists that were settled in the super science city will always generate the same amount of beakers.

Late game this can be huge because if you manage RocknRoll, Eiffel tower, Hollywood, or Broadway (or all of them), you can set your culture rate to 10%and have a riddiculous amount of happy people.

more happy people = more hammers, beakers, food, commerce, and great people.

 

[Wodan]

Bear with me while I try to distill this down.

Basically, this is a CE, with a GP farm. The farm is optimized toward Great Scientists.

Nothing breaking new ground yet.

The kicker that you're proposing is that every single GS is settled into the GP farm. Is that correct?

(If so, let me modify by one thing... the first GS creates an Academy in the GP farm, right? The rest are settled in the GP farm instead of creating Academies in other cities and instead of lightbulbing.)

Wodan

 

[yavoon]

I play cottage, and I can have my capital making upwards of 70% of my total research, so I'm unsure where u get the idea that CE's "specialty" is in having average cities.

honestly there are a lot of sub optimal things about SE's. if u could build the pyramids, AND win the game really quickly(before liberalism/printingpress) its possible u could be more powerful than a CE. of course if u dont build the pyramids, or dont win quickly then u lose badly to a cottage economy.

and I'm also baffled about this mixing now, where we're suppose to imagine a person using a lot of scientists, w/o the pyramids? and this leads to something good?

 

[uberfish]

This isn't a mixed economy strategy, it's a SSC strategy. This sort of build is suited for a relatively peaceful space race as it wants time for its settled GPs to pay off.

The best way to run this is that I've found is to build pyramids + GL + NE + some other wonders that produce desirable GP types in capital, run two scientists there when feasible and cottage everything else. It's like OCC except with supporting cities.

 

[iamdanthemansta]

Woodan - I think you've pretty much got it though I would note that the GPF should have Oxford and the National Epic. Also, I think, though the numbers break down differently game to game, that it is advantagious to settle your first GS then use the second to get a Academy. Also, if I didn't have the Pyramids I'd probably bulb the first 1 or 2 GS since they produce 1500 beakes, unlike the normal 1k.

yavoon - If you produce 70% of your tech in one CE city you're probably doing something wrong. A settled GS with Repersentation produces 9 beakes, which is more then a fully matured cottage with financial. I've also been able to get 20 GS, once which is as many as the total number of possible cottages. Now you may argue that you can have GS in a cottage city and get the best of both worlds, but this will dilute your GPP and the 6 beakers you get from normal scientists are still pretty good.

uberfish - I'm not sure you need peace any more for this then any other stratigy, in fact I want to test this with a war like leader like Cyrus. Also again you need more then 2 scientists.

I've been thinking a little more about the break down of my cities in this build. I think the SSC would probably be the first city and optimally have the pyramids, the great library, the national epic, oxford, the statue of liberty and maybe the parthanon and great wall. Why you may ask am I putting wonders that produce non scientist GPP in the GPF, well the scientist GPP will hugely overwhelm the others and then you will just have more GPP. Also the second science city would probably need the globe theater and possibly and academy as well, though again I'd need to do the math.

 

[yavoon]

Woodan - I think you've pretty much got it though I would note that the GPF should have Oxford and the National Epic. Also, I think, though the numbers break down differently game to game, that it is advantagious to settle your first GS then use the second to get a Academy. Also, if I didn't have the Pyramids I'd probably bulb the first 1 or 2 GS since they produce 1500 beakes, unlike the normal 1k.

yavoon - If you produce 70% of your tech in one CE city you're probably doing something wrong. A settled GS with Repersentation produces 9 beakes, which is more then a fully matured cottage with financial. I've also been able to get 20 GS, once which is as many as the total number of possible cottages. Now you may argue that you can have GS in a cottage city and get the best of both worlds, but this will dilute your GPP and the 6 beakers you get from normal scientists are still pretty good.

I've been thinking a little more about the break down of my cities in this build. I think the SSC would probably be the first city and optimally have the pyramids, the great library, the national epic, oxford, the statue of liberty and maybe the parthanon and great wall. Why you may ask am I putting wonders that produce non scientist GPP in the GPF, well the scientist GPP will hugely overwhelm the others and then you will just have more GPP. Also the second science city would probably need the globe theater and possibly and academy as well, though again I'd need to do the math.

I aint doing anything wrong. now the rest of what u sed is somewhat confusing, but I'll try for it. first GS dont produce GPP so no matter where u put ur GS has no relevance to ur generation of GPP. also its inherently disingenuous to compare to cottages to GS, they are different things. compare cottages to scientists not great scientists. thirdly, 20 GS is an absurd amount. I dont even know what the numbers look like that high, but lets assume it just stays at +200 after 1000. thats 23,500 GPP, thats 7833 GS turns u need to accumulate. its also been proven multiple times that trying to get a lot of great ppl is an inherently inefficient venture. for example a non-philosophical civ will get 9 great ppl when a philosophical civ will get 12. so u simply aren't going to outpace a normal reasonable GP farm by that much.

now that we're done comparing great ppl to cottages we can compare cottages to what they're really up against, scientists. scientists are 0 food/6 science/3 GPP. vs 2 food/7 gold(not even gna count suffrage). well I dont think there's anyone on the planet who will tell u that 3 GPP is the equivalent of 2 food, and 7 gold is assuming no river or financial.

also u claim to be playing emperor and are now considering giving ur city a regular smorgasbord of wonders? makes one wonder, its hard enough to give urself pyramids. now u want to give urself a bunch of other early wonders? and u ostensibly want to do this w/o even an industrious trait...?

also I'm interested in ur response to uberfish where u say "u need more than 2 scientists." now ur suggesting to leave slavery for caste system? possibly the most abusive thing in the entire game, ur gna dump to put a few more scientists into a city? wow.

 

[iamdanthemansta]

yavoon - GS may not produce GPP but Oxford, which is a vital staple of a SSC, does and more importantly it allows 3 scientists which certainly do. 20 GS is very possible if you optimise your economy right and have Philisophical. Most people don't realise how many GS you can produce since they don't try running a SE. I also use slavery quite a bit, though there is a point where it's no longer viable and emancipation isn't required yet where I do run it. You can have a lot of scientists with a library and oxford, the Great Library and an observitory help even more. Also on the comment that I'm looking at too many wonders, if you can build the great wall the great engineers will take care of the pyramids the great library, and possibly the parthanon.

 

[yavoon]

yavoon - GS may not produce GPP but Oxford, which is a vital staple of a SSC, does and more importantly it allows 3 scientists which certainly do. 20 GS is very possible if you optimise your economy right and have Philisophical. Most people don't realise how many GS you can produce since they don't try running a SE. I also use slavery quite a bit, though there is a point where it's no longer viable and emancipation isn't required yet where I do run it. You can have a lot of scientists with a library and oxford, the Great Library and an observitory help even more. Also on the comment that I'm looking at too many wonders, if you can build the great wall the great engineers will take care of the pyramids the great library, and possibly the parthanon.

an SE is not at all relevant to the # of GS u produce(especially considering what ur doing is a glorified GP farm). and there does not exist a point in the game where slavery is no longer viable before emancipation becomes a big unhappy problem.

so now u not only have 20 GS from oxford, makes me wonder what ur doing before education. I mean what does ur glorified GP farm look like during possibly the most important part of the game? but now before u get 20 GS u get 3 GE, AND to make it even better u get all 3 GE from wonders. ur strategy gets better every post. whats next? I mean 23 great ppl, and half of all the early wonders obviously isnt an impressive enough deal. perhaps u'd like to throw in something else? perhaps u'd like to explain all the early conquering ur also doing?

this is what happens w/ these strats. these strats relying on insanely exotic combinations go up against very robust and reliable cottage strats and they still fall short.

 

[iamdanthemansta]

Before education you still have 2 scientists from library and 2 from the great library and even in a pure SE I'm not running at 0% tech yet either. Also try the Great Wall Gambit before you knock it. That being said I'm not getting into a SE vs. CE debate here, there are enough posts on that. The advantage of a mixed stratigy is that you don't rely on a few wonders as much as the normal SE since you still have cottages in other cities the only point I'm trying to make is that with this you can by the end of the game get better then 1k beakers from the SSC and hunderds from the other cottage cities.

 

[yavoon]

Before education you still have 2 scientists from library and 2 from the great library and even in a pure SE I'm not running at 0% tech yet either. Also try the Great Wall Gambit before you knock it. That being said I'm not getting into a SE vs. CE debate here, there are enough posts on that. The advantage of a mixed stratigy is that you don't rely on a few wonders as much as the normal SE since you still have cottages in other cities the only point I'm trying to make is that with this you can by the end of the game get better then 1k beakers from the SSC and hunderds from the other cottage cities.

what do u mean u dont rely on wonders? u say that in the same post where ur assuming the pyramids and the GL and the great wall? are u serious?

so pre education u have effectively a 4 scientist GP farm. I must tell u, thats not that impressive. and ur certainly not going to radically outpace a normal person w/ a GP farm. HELL if someone just built the GL he could only be behind by at most 2 great ppl pre oxford.

if all ur saying is this strat is cool and it makes a wicked endgame city that is neato then fine, I withdraw criticism. if ur saying this is comparably effective w/ aggressive cottage/bureacracy strats then I gotta disagree severely.

 

[iamdanthemansta]

Actually these stratigies aren't mutually exclusive. If I was building a mixed economy I would probalby run Beaurocracy and cottages in the capitol and librarys and Oxford etc. in the next city.

 

[yavoon]

Actually these stratigies aren't mutually exclusive. If I was building a mixed economy I would probalby run Beaurocracy and cottages in the capitol and librarys and Oxford etc. in the next city.

so now ur not gna put oxford in ur bureaucratic capital? u think 5 scientists have more hootzpah then a dozen towns?

 

[iamdanthemansta]

You don't have a dozen towns at the point where you have 5 scientists and GP are the weight of this stratigy as I've been trying to say from the beginning.

 

[yavoon]

You don't have a dozen towns at the point where you have 5 scientists and GP are the weight of this stratigy as I've been trying to say from the beginning.

I have a dozen towns before I get oxford up(not all the time, but I can usually get close, it almost depends on how much the AI accelerates my research). and like I said prior, u simply can't get that much more GP than a normal person w/ a reasonable GP farm. the best u can do is put up GL and run library's scientists until u actually get oxford up. which guarentees u wont have some absurd amt of GP for most of the important time in the game. and even then u effectively have 7 scientists churning points out. which is hardly unheard of amts of GPP(though it is a lot of scientists).

 

[pixiejmcc]

OMG - This is such a fascinating thread. Iamdanthemansta please respond. The drama is unbeatable.

 

[Shillen]

Let me get this straight, you're advocating merging your scientists into your city instead of building an academy in your next best science city? That's just wrong.

Let's say there's 300 turns left in the game. Let's just pretend that your science city already has the full 250% science bonus, which it won't really. Your merged GS will be worth 9*300*250%= 6750 beakers. Now take a town that's surrounded with cottages. Let's say its commerce increases linearly throughout the game and at the end of the game it's producing 100 base commerce (I checked a save from my recent game and that was the value for my 2nd best commerce city.). So that means the average commerce per turn is 50. So an academy is adding 50*300*50%=7500 beakers.

So even if you already had all science buildings in your GS city (which you won't until much later in the game), merging that scientist is still not as good as an academy in another city. Academies > merging, sorry. I'll build 4 academies before I merge a scientist.

 

[MrCynical]

Determining whether you should build an academy or merge a science specialist is a very simple piece of maths, Shillen. The basic question is, do you have any cities without an academy generating more than 60 base commerce per turn (or likely to with a reasonable amount of the game still remaining). If yes, then build an academy there. Just inspect the base commerce output of each of your cities and make the ppropriate decision based on that rather than arbitrarily deciding one is always better.

The value of 60 is based on the assumption that you're running representation. If you're not running, or planning to run, representation, then you're better off giving an academy to any city with a base commerce output of at least 40.