Something to do with Ancient Forests

[Mesix]

. Make late game improvements (windmills, watermills, lumberthingies) better

The mechanic to make forests into ancient forests for FOL is a good one. Unfortunately, if the player is not an elf, it is impossible to build any upgrades at all in an ancient forest. It would be nice if FOL state religion allowed a player to build something in an ancient forest. Maybe not a woodmill sinced it is not thematic, but maybe a windmill or a watermill without destroying it or some special improvement just for ancient forests (maybe buildable by Priests of the Leaves).

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Sacred Groves for + are the first thing to come to mind for me. Possibly some ambiguous way of implying the growing of Fruits within the forest for +.

As for +, not a clue what would be thematic (as you said, Lumbermills for Forest Protectors...)

 

[MacGyverInSpace]

Lumper fruit?

But I thought this whole problem was teh trade off.

 

[Elm]

Might be overkill for the elves, but I usually add +1 river commerce to ancient forests. That way, if you have a forest on a river, and are not of the elf race, when running FOL, you get the trade back when the forest becomes ancient.

 

[megamanx06]

i generally only play FoL as the elves, so it doesn't bother me.

 

[cabbagemeister]

I like the idea of a fixed commerce-increasing improvement for ancient forests (say, +2 commerce). The elves would never use it because cottages are way better. But it would really make FoL more attractive for non-elves.

 

[zup]

Elves are the tree shaggers. The rest just chop or burn them forests down. The quicker the better.

 

[thadian]

i think the ancient forests should give their own bonuses with different civic/tech's. i think about the "windmill" and the "workshop" that to really utilize them it takes a few techs and a civic to maximise.

these imo should work much the same. or - they could give extra bonuses when chopped?

 

[Snarks]

It would really make FoL a more viable religion if other races can build on forests. As it stands, only the elves can really use the FoL religions.

 

[DarkxL0rd]

I like the idea of a fixed commerce-increasing improvement for ancient forests (say, +2 commerce). The elves would never use it because cottages are way better. But it would really make FoL more attractive for non-elves.

think about it. why would an ancient forest help your civilization in the area of commerce? food maybe. but just because there's more animals and plant life in a thick forest enviroment. hammers i guess cause you get tougher wood and such, but money? i think not.

 

[Mesix]

Improving the utility of Ancient Forest tiles (especially in the late game) is not only for the human player. In many of my games (better than 50%), most of the AI players adopt FoL as their state religion. Their cities are surrounded by ancient forests, and thier tech rate suffers due to a lack of cottages. Don't get me wrong, I like to whoop up on the tree hugging loonies with my Phalanx and Immortal units while they are defending with Axemen and Archers, but it seems that thier Ancient forests should do something for them rather than be a hinderance. If not, then the AI should not pursue FoL as a state religion unless they are elven.

Also, to illustrate my point, building a windmill and chopping down an ancient forest nets a gain of one hammer and two commerce. Why would anyone keep them around when chopping them is better unless you are an elf.

There could be another way to make Ancient Forests better without a new improvement. Maybe the FoL Temple or the Grove (or a new building made available through Hidden Paths) could add a bonus for Ancient Forests that are being worked. Maybe all thee buildings could add a little making Ancient forests more productive tiles with the proper buildings in the city. Other buildings (like a forge) might decrease the bonus.

 

[odalrick]

think about it. why would an ancient forest help your civilization in the area of commerce? food maybe. but just because there's more animals and plant life in a thick forest enviroment. hammers i guess cause you get tougher wood and such, but money? i think not.

Rare herbs, fine lumber, beautiful skins, pilgrims...

If anything, I think food is a stretch. Clearing the entire forest, replacing it with farmland and watering it from the nearby river only gives +1 food.

 

[cabbagemeister]

Also, to illustrate my point, building a windmill and chopping down an ancient forest nets a gain of one hammer and two commerce. Why would anyone keep them around when chopping them is better unless you are an elf.

Remember that the FoL AI might be losing a happy face by chopping if they're running GoN. I'm not saying that they shouldn't chop (because their tech rate clearly does go in the dumpster, as you've said), but that it's not quite as cut and dried as "ancient forests give worse tile yields, therefore they should be chopped".

 

[Neomega]

If you are going to do anything to make ancient forests one iota better, you must get rid of the treants.

In fact, I hate treants, even if they are on my side. It is ridiculous to have a 10 unit on turn 70 that has double forest movement and 60% forest attack/defense strength.

 

[Ranos]

In the early game, Treants are nice in a pinch, but unless you are being attacked by a stack, they are useless. They are really annoying when you are trying to attack someone else. When you are being faced mid to late game though, they can really help out. They are awesome for flavor and make attacking someone with FoL a small risk. You might lose that nicely promoted Warrior or Swordsman to a freshly spawned Treant.

Ancient Forests are great for elves but definately a bad thing for all other civs. Some sort of improvement would be nice, but nothing could really fit the flavor. The only thing I could think of is allowing lumbermills but having some sort of angry forest effect.

Have improvements or roads be randomly destroyed or have barbarian Treants appear in your lands. Unhappiness or unhealthiness from the lumber mill is another possibility.

 

[Mesix]

Just having the lumbermill negate the happiness from running the Guardians of Nature civic would be enough. But I still don't think it is good flavorwise to have FoL players building lumbermills in their Ancient Forests.

 

[Micky Onimusha]

Just having the lumbermill negate the happiness from running the Guardians of Nature civic would be enough. But I still don't think it is good flavorwise to have FoL players building lumbermills in their Ancient Forests.

Neither do I. I'm 90% sure I read somewhere in Grigori lore as an example of the extremism of Leaves was to punish a man who lost his house and cut down a tree to rebuild it**. Quite literally any form of un-natural "removal" of the forest seems to go against their principles, almost like a "let nature take its course". The impression I get is all the lumber harvested from the forest has fell naturally, so thematically it'd be seen as a "gift" from the forest.

I do think things need to be done about making Leaves more attractive in general, because short of the Elves, the only time other Civs aim to take it is for the super-city Happiness/Health associated with GoN (which is very much a human-focused strategy, rather than a strategy the AI excercises). The amount of synergy the Elves have for Leaves is a bit too rigid for my taste, and the lack of synergy most other civs have for it is disappointing. I like the idea of "Rare Herbs", but thinking of a word that really describes a "base" where one would harvest rare herbs is difficult. Sacred Grove is easy to come to mind but somewhat clashes with the building of the same name.

A possibility that comes to mind would be to allow Ancient Forests to "naturally" upgrade to greater things when unimproved (i.e. no Elf cottages), like the Mushrooms event - % chance per turn to spawn some herbs/pilgrammage site for and fine lumber for ? It shouldn't match Elven improvements for yield, but it should give a good enough bonus that the use of the AF tile outweighs the idea of chopping it down in favour of a normal improvement. Of course, then the question comes that with everyone being able to run GoN with a comfortable economy, is +1 too much for every tile if it's viable for most civs to run a BFC full of forests? (admittedly my understanding of this mod is that everything should be overpowered, rather than nerfed, so maybe that isn't a "problem")

**

I talked to the spirit of a man who had been killed by an order Confessor for lying, a boy who had starved because his family couldn't afford food and the teachings of Kilmorph don't emphasize charity, an elf who had used wood from a sacred tree to rebuild his home and had been killed by the Fellowship for it. And thousands who had died in wars they didn't believe in for gods they didn't trust and who didn't accept them.

http://fallfromheaven.wikia.com/wiki/Cassiel

Knew I wasn't crazy!

 

[Mesix]

Maybe the Ancient forests could randomly spawn unique resources like Rare Herbs and such. A FoL temple could give bonus happiness for these new resources and they could give additional commerce to the tile.

 

[Caradoc]

The Forest Preserve (Orbis) provides a good improvement for the Ancient Forest.

 

[WarKirby]

If you are going to do anything to make ancient forests one iota better, you must get rid of the treants.

In fact, I hate treants, even if they are on my side. It is ridiculous to have a 10 unit on turn 70 that has double forest movement and 60% forest attack/defense strength.

What's wrong with Treants? Why would you have a problem with being given that awesome power ?

They;'re not exactly an insurmountable obstacle. All someone has to do is run away until their lifetime expires. Isn't it 3 turns or so efore hey return to the forest?