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Sons of Monarchy V: Bismarck

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Giant Wolfman, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. Giant Wolfman

    Giant Wolfman Warlord

    Joined:
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    WA
    Welcome to Sons of Monarchy: Round V

    Our fifth round will feature Bismarck of Germany



    Bismarck is:
    Expansive: +2 :health: per city, Double Production of Granary and Harbor, and 25% faster production of workers
    Industrious: +50% Wonder Production, and Double Production of Forge

    Two solid traits. Personally I prefer Frederick of the two German leaders, but Bismarck is a capable leader.

    Germany's Starting Techs & Uniques:
    Hunting & Mining
    Assembly Plant: A factory that gives two additional engineer spots and can be built 50% faster if you have access to coal.
    Panzer: A Tank that gets +50% versus other armored units

    Each is commonly held as one of the worst Uniques in the game, mostly because they come so late and their advantages are minimal compared to how late they do come. Compared to other Uniques, the advantages of these are just too late and minimal to matter in the majority of games.

    The Start:



    Fractal, No Huts, No Events, All Other Settings Standard
    Spoiler Map Edits :
    Changed a couple tiles in our BFC from plains to grassland. No other edits.


    To play: I am using the same process as the Noble's Club so those familiar with that excellent series just do the same thing. Download the attached zip files & unzip into your BTS/Saves/Worldbuilder folder. Go to Custom Scenarios, select the SoM Save corresponding to your desired difficulty level, and customize game settings as desired. You will need to add techs to barbs. To do so:
    Spoiler :
    zoom all the way in, open worldbuilder, and add the appropriate techs to the barbarian civilization. This means archery at monarch or higher, hunting at emperor or higher, agriculture at immortal or deity, and the wheel at deity.

    Posters are encouraged to include: Thoughts on start/where to settle first and what initial tech path. Later saves can include position at 1 AD, liberalism race as a midgame checkpoint, and the final result. Players are encouraged to post as much as they desire, though screenshots/saves make receiving help easier. Spoiler details about the map and your playing for all details except regarding the opening screenshot.

    Good luck, and happy civving!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Giant Wolfman

    Giant Wolfman Warlord

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    I apologize for the (2 month!) delay on getting this round out. I had been planning on a Terra map, but then changed my mind after seeing the recent IU & NC terra maps.

    I made the saves a week or two ago but just didn't have the opportunity to post them before going on vacation. I don't believe there are any issues with the saves, but feel free to let me know if there are.
     
  3. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Bizzy's liking that stone. Don't even need Wheel for it either. AH-Masonry-BW looks like a pretty nice early tech path here with an eye towards grabbing the 'mids.
     
  4. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    I don't normally do these progress reports midway, but it's getting late and I want to for this map anyway for a reason that might be obvious if you've played.

    Monarch/No Huts or Events/as usual/to just after Liberalism:

    Spoiler :
    So hey guys, Ragnar, right? :lol:

    Early game got bunches of wonders just cuz--'mids, Stonehenge (YES I KNOW RIGHT), Great Wall. Got a GE and saved him up for the Great Library in a town to the west. With Ragnar on the board, I grabbed copper city for Hamburg (and popped a second copper in the hills), set up a GP farm near the corn and the horses in the west for Munich, and then worked my way west, cutting off Boobyca at the isthmus. Ragnar and Napoleon and Boudica on the board meant beefy garrisons all around. Grabbed MoM, teched to Music, grabbed a Golden Age and started building Sistine just to be a jerk. Ragnar was NONE TOO PLEASED with this development and sent a fearsome hellstack to smash itself against Hamburg and die horribly as the villagers built the Sistine Chapel on top of their corpses. Came into the war with 0.7 of his power rating; left with Monarchy and gold.

    Ragnar then decides to be Willem's buddy and declares war on Boudica, but since he's cut off and only has five cities, his only way into Boudica's territory is through my land. The guy he just declared war on. So Ragnar sits in Uppsala or Vikingheim or Ragehalla or whatever, twiddling his thumb with this massive stack of cats and horse archers, unable to bring the terror. I, meanwhile, tech toward Lib with an eye for my usual MT slingshot. I start building the Taj in Hamburg.

    Ragnar throws his arms up and goes "man, eff this" because he is NONE TOO PLEASED with my decision to build another wonder right up in his grill, so he sends his raging hellstack to--this time--smash itself against some maces deployed on a forest. Then, out of Mao's lands to the west, a monstrous, siege-heavy stack approached my NE/GL town. Ten catapults... and two chariots.

    So despite the fact that this war has been an utter embarrassment for him, despite the fact that he's lost his entire military force and is still teching in the dark ages while I spam Cuirassiers all over the place, Rags still refuses to talk. He's dropped from 0.8 power ratio to 1.2, I've got an ever-growing field of Cuirs gathering in Hamburg, and he has literally no offensive force left. Ragnar, you are just precious. Don't ever change, buddy.
     
  5. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

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    1 SW with the scout and hope he reveals food to the west.
     
  6. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

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    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    OMG! Stons + Ind + Mining + no need of roads = early wonderspam
    Wonderspam + expansive = settled specialist economy

    seems to easy start for me to play
     
  7. BigTime

    BigTime Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Great to see that a monarch series has continued in my absence! Summer has come back, and with that the addiction to civilization 4. I'll definitely play this!
     
  8. BigTime

    BigTime Prince

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    Location:
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Well that was fast....
    Immortal/normal gave up at around 1AD

    Spoiler :


    I opened animal husbandry-masonry to get wonders. I got all stone wonders (GW, Mids, and Henge) and settled sheep/corn site up north and corn/copper site down south. Nothing else to the west was that appealing. I also settled block city for Boudica. Everything was going fine, and I was surprised that I had avoided war with all these ridiculous AIs. I was building up axes in case Ragnar declared but then Boudica declared with this...



    Okay... there was a gallic warrior and an archer in the galley. Dunno why she didnt just march over. I feared a stack was on its way from Boudica so I took my axes over to my border city. But then...





    Double war bribe from Boudica! I wasn't going to try and defend myself on three fronts so I hung it up there. Oh well, I was hoping my return to forum games would give me a nice map, but this one is pretty challenging with 5 warmongers and poor starting land outside of the stone.

     
  9. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    AUGH. Screw. This. Game.

    Spoiler :
    So after Ragnar FINALLY took peace, I spammed Cuirs during a double GA. I grab two of his cities and he calls in Napoleon as an ally. Then he peacevassals to Mao. We share a long, long border, and Napoleon--whom I'll have the hardest time reaching--has the Statue of Zeus. I could probably lock down and go to space, but neither Napoleon nor Mao will talk right now. Ragnar has one city left, but my forces were smashed by Mao's doomstack of Grenadiers that he had waiting around for the occasion.

    I may try this again later, maybe press the issue with Ragnar earlier. In any case, the whole west--featuring all of the most dangerous AIs--got the same religion, so it was like facing one giant force while the Willem/Boudica/Izzy side of the continent quibbled and fought. Maybe I'll try again from my last save and sweep east instead? I don't know. I really, really wanted Ragnar off my back after he was a right jerk the entire game.
     
  10. Giant Wolfman

    Giant Wolfman Warlord

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    Monarch, No huts/no events/choose religions

    Currently at 150 AD, looking for general feedback

    Spoiler :

    SIP, and went AH, Masonry, BW to open. After hooking up the stone, built a settler to settle the wine/copper site towards Ragnar. I then built GW in Berlin and Stonehenge in Hamburg. A bit unorthodox but my thought was that with Industrious and stone, SH was only 18 hammers more than a monument. In Berlin I built Pyramids and grabbed a very late Oracle (750 BC on monarch?) to grab COL while expanding out to the 8 cities I'm at right now.



    (FYI: Not sure why the resource bubbles aren't showing up, but there is wine 1W & 1 SW of Hamburg, as well as Copper 1E)

    Got a GE from the pyramids that I have used to rush the GLib in Frankfurt (figure this and Berlin--due to wonders--will be my main source of GPP). I'm also building the Parthenon in Berlin at the moment. Wonderspamming galore because of Industrious combined with stone and Marble.

    As others have alluded to, diplo is.....interesting.

    Ragnar of all people founded the second religion, which he took as Judaism. This has meant that Rags, Mao, Napoleon, and myself are all Jewish, while Izzy and WvO are Christian and Boudica is Hindu. At the moment I am the worst enemy of Boudica and have been off and on the worst of Izzy. However, I've stacked up Axes & Spears in Essen, where Boudica is choked off. I don't think any of the eastern powers should be too much of a problem at the moment. My worry is Ragnar, who has been WHEOOHRN for a while. He's pleased at me now but he went into WHEOOHRN right about the time I got him to pleased, not sure which came first. Also not sure if he will plot at pleased anyway. I am +8 for him overall, so hopefully that should deter him if he doesn't declare on me. Despite all the warmongers and religious strife, there has been universal peace thus far.

    Tech situation at the moment:

    I'm going for Music for the free GA to launch a golden age (still haven't launched one nor gotten a GS for my academy yet). After music, I'm planning on civil service and maybe feudalism for longbows given our neighbors. I'm also debating Philosophy for Pacifism, but unsure how wise that is given that we will need a strong military presence to deter the neighbors.

    I'm also not sure on city placement. I would love some feedback on the cities I've already placed, as well as future sites.
    Here is the Northeast:

    I'm debating the pink or the green to reel in the fish but not sure which, or if it even matters which. I also want to pick up that sheep but can't figure out how. That tundra to the west is open but garbage. Maybe 1SE so that it can use the sheep to work mines in hills, but its pretty blah.

    In the west (north of Mao):

    Pretty much garbage land. Note that some of this land has probably been taken up by Mao (haven't scouted this area since my first warrior went exploring in the early game). Mao's already up to 8 cities at the moment. I'm just not sure if it's better to let Mao keep expanding and have most of this junk, or if there are any sites that are worth grabbing. I don't see any, but I don't think my city placement skills are all that great.

    Save is attached. Immediate need, upon reflection, is workers, and I've switched Munich to building a worker to reflect this. 5 for 8 cities, particularly when expansive is pitiful, though to be fair I did just settle 2 cities (Dortmund & Stuttgart) in the last few turns and 2 others (Essen & Frankfurt) fairly recently. I'm also not sure how to proceed in general. I have horses and Iron, so typical cuirassier stomp might be wise, given that with these neighbors peace is unlikely to last long enough to dedicate to culture/space.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

    Joined:
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    Here's my 2c

    Spoiler :
    If you're not running into health or happiness problems, consider gifting resources to Ragnar and or Mao (esp sheep, corn, gold, and wine) for the +1 diplo.

    Once you get music, you can build culture in Essen to claim the tile NE of the spice. Build a fort there, plant a bunch of defenders for 5 turns then declare on Boudica for free xp + possible diplo bonuses with everyone else, and collect a great general.

    Probably wanna get Maui Statues going somewhere, if you haven't already. Guaranteed failgold there too if you need it, with stone+Ind.

    Are you running Rep? I didn't build a single cottage in my game (will post updates later) and you have a lot of them. Interesting choice but at some point you're going to run into a hammer crunch I think. Maybe you can Lib Steam Power?
     
  12. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

    Joined:
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    Emperor, 1585 (incomplete)

    Spoiler :
    I scouted 1 SW and found nothing. Thus I moved my settler 1 SE and found a green sheep and settled. Lucked out more and got a dry corn in my BFC.



    Proceed to wonderspam and rex to 12 cities by 600 AD. The neighbors, for all their religious differences, were pretty peacefull until the ADs. I built Mids in Berline, ran Rep and teched via spec's /wonders. Oracled CoL, ran Confucianism for a while but quickly abandoned that because of the diplo hit and also the hammer sink of missionaries. Courthouses ASAP with Mao as my espionage target. I waited till Cav's to take him out though so all that commerce and hammers invested in espionage was wasteful probably.


    Lib'ed in 1320, took Rifling. As you can see (because of espionage) I could easily have waited and libbed something more expensive, but I already had GP and MT, so I could immediately start pumping Cav's after this so it was a good deal in terms of opportunity costs I think.

    Shortly after taking out Mao with Cav's, this:


    Then the Dutch declared on me, but I wanted to clean up France first before heading east. I wasn't concerned about the Dutch. Boudica was my nearest rival and she has been pleased most of the game. But for a little insurance I make this deal before heading into France:



    And then I took a couple French cities. France took one back, and then China stole it in the same turn, but nonetheless, I'm 1 turn from taking France and capitulating them and moving on to Boudica. There are too many games on the board these days for me to play it through though.


     
  13. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

    Joined:
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    save....................
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Giant Wolfman

    Giant Wolfman Warlord

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    Spoiler :

    Very good point about Rep. I am in it, but have built a lot of cottages thus far and am definitely not making good enough use of Rep. I guess I've been focused on keeping some semblance of commerce, but really I could just switch into caste and run merchants to generate gold. This, I think, is a major weak point in my game. I see riverside of any kind and immediately cottage it, even when the better play may be to farm and run specialists (particularly with Pyr, Parthenon, and potentially Caste). I'm starting to run into happiness issues, but health isn't a problem. Another weak point in my game is a stinginess to provide help to the AI, even if it's minor and helps me more. I didn't even think about gifting extra resources like the sheep to the AI for the diplo bonus.

    While I post somewhat regularly in forum games, it's rare for me to take a break and write up like this; I feel like I can point out other's flaws but playing straight through like I normally do results in inconsistent play, as I just get bored and hit end turn too quickly.

    Thanks for the feedback goldys!
     
  15. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

    Joined:
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    Location:
    D.C. Area
    Giant Wolfman:

    Spoiler :

    I played around with this start on monarch as well for fun. In terms of your city sites, I think I settled everything about in the same locations, except I settled cities one tile west of both Cologne and Stuttgart, and I didn't bother with settling Dortmund.

    Main difference was I axe rushed Rags in between wonderspamming, so I had 10 cities at about that time, and settled 2 more in the early to mid ADs. It also looks like you cottaged a lot more of the land than me - I used more farms & mines/workshops in Hamburg & Cologne to get some stronger production going.

    Rags had a great cottage site and an awesome GP farm site for me, so between that and the cottages in Berlin, I was able to get a pretty good tech rate going. Mao declared on me twice, but with stacks of swords & chariots wasn't a real threat.

    I cut off just a few turns short of Lib (900 AD) with 12 cities, a massive tech lead and plenty of production, so yes, this does seem like it's tailor made for a cuirassier/cavalry stomp.

    Looks like you're in a pretty good position even without killing rags - you'll have 9 cities soon enough, which on monarch should be plenty to take over the land with cuirassiers/cavalry. I'd suggest going ahead and starting up towards CS & then the lib beeline and use Taj to speed along tech to get the rest of the techs to unlock those units. Keep in mind accumulating units may go a little slower since you've heavily cottaged - might want to focus a couple more sites on production (farms & mines).

     
  16. Giant Wolfman

    Giant Wolfman Warlord

    Joined:
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    WA
    Wowser
    1795 AD Monarch Conquest Victory
    Spoiler :

    Left off at 125 AD having just started research on Music. I pumped out a few more workers to keep improving the land, and took some of the advice and focused more on farms than cottages. I also ran a bunch of scientists. That all helped me get to music pretty quickly, snagging the free GA. I researched Philo and part of CS before launching my Golden Age (switch into Pacifism to starve out GP's and eventually bureau--so up until Lib I was running Rep, Bureau, Caste, & Pacifism). This really helped my GS generation, as I ended up getting 7 out by the end of the game. Among other things, they academied Berlin, bulbed paper, and partial bulbed education, liberalism, and later chemistry. Also grabbed Nationalism and grabbed the Taj

    Liberalism 980 AD for Military Tradition:
    Spoiler :



    And with the Taj finished 90 years later, switched into Police State, Vassalage, Slavery, & Theocracy to go into megawar mode. Also used a GE to rush Notre Dame, as I figured the +2 :) would be more useful for whipping than anything else at that point. As was predicted, it took painfully long to get forces up. At the same time, Mao switched to Taoism & Nappy to Islam, meaning our Jewish bloc had become fractured. Mao DOW'd me in 1230 (only a couple of turns before I was actually going to declare on him, so whatever). I had capped him by 1320, then moved on to Napoleon, who gave up pretty quickly and was generally passive this game.

    I was preparing to move on to Ragnar when I was DOW'd by Boudica, who by that point had capped WvO. I shifted about half my cuir's to help fight her off when Ragnar DOW'd me in 1500, leaving me with two SOD's to fight off:
    Boudica in the East:
    Spoiler :



    & Ragnar in the Southwest:
    Spoiler :


    But these were no match for the mighty German Cuirassier's, who wiped out the entirety of both stacks (!) at the loss of only four units. I actually spawned two Great Generals on that one turn :lol:

    After that I was able to knock Ragnar off the continent (it took him fooorrrevvverr to capitulate, even after he was stranded on a one city island) and move on to Boudica. Boudica was wiped (she too didn't want to cap so I just wiped her off the board), before capping WvO to move on to Izzy. By this point I was well into Cavalry, but she had a plethora of Rifles that tore me to shreds and cost a lot of cavalry. My production/whipping was just too much though, and she eventually capped in 1795.



    for a conquest victory and score of 109262.

    Cities/Wonder screen:
    Spoiler :


    Units screen:
    Spoiler :


    and my favorite, the power screen:
    Spoiler :


    Of note: the large drops in Ragnar & Boudica's ratings at 1505. She built up another large stack of mostly the same composition that I was able to wipe out equally as easily once Ragnar had been dealt with. Also of note, the huge drops by both me and Izzy, when I basically just sacrificed cavalry. Cannons/modern war was too far off to help out the cav, so I just went with the brute force beatdown.

    For a pre 1000AD lib powered cuir/cav stomp, this game took soo long. Having to fight through all these warmongers just took so long, particularly since Ragnar & Boudica didn't want to cap until they were down to one measly city. Rifles also really really slowed things down towards the end too.
    The war with Izzy was really nothing more than a war of attrition, as can be seen in the unit screen by the mass cavalry causalties and power screen in the large dips. Just tough, knock-down, drag-out wars.


    How do those who have played the map feel about it?
    Spoiler map details :

    I had handpicked Ragnar as an AI for the simple reason that I feel like I hadn't played as/against him for a long time. The other AI's, and our position right in the center of them, was all random. I thought it would make a very interesting game. BFC Stone and nearby Marble with Bismarck screams wonder spam to culture/space. But the neighbors, particularly the western ones, made that very difficult. Even though I had been pleased with Ragnar & Mao for much of the game, both ended up declaring on me (as did the less friendly Boudica and Izzy). The search to find the balance between a peaceful game and war with the neighbors was what made it interesting to me, but I'm not sure how others who played it feel about that. I want to stick to (mostly) random AI's, but should I try to avoid situations like this in the future, or is the challenge of having a horde of neighbors like these OK every once in a while?
     
  17. goldys_lackey

    goldys_lackey Hitler

    Joined:
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    Spoiler :
    slightly OP due to Stone/marble start + lots of land


    So I really liked the map.
     
  18. Revent

    Revent Will SIP

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    Will be playing this after I finish Catherine :) I did read a bit of spoilers to see if this game would be interesting, and seems pretty tough so will give it a go!
     
  19. i_imperator

    i_imperator Imperator

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Ireland
    Emperor Normal, No Huts/Events/to 1AD

    Spoiler :

    So this is quite an interesting map with some intresting neighbours!






    I decided to sip, industrious and stone?! Bring on da wonders!!!!!!! :D

    My tech went AH>Agri>Masnory>Wheel>BW>Prisethood>Pottery>Writing>Sailing>Asethetics

    Napolean got alphabet very fast, and was asking for trades before i had researched writing. Most of the religion spread is jewish with welliam and Spain being buddist :( and boudicca being hindu.I later decided to switch to jewism.

    I Got the Mids, GW, Oracle, and i took COL from the oracle, probably should've take aesthetics but i can live with it. Tried to spread confu to nappy but ofc he converted just as my missionary got there.



    Here is my empire and the 1AD Demo
    graphics.





    The lands to the east is interesting, there's not alot of good city sites, beyond the horses/crabs site and the. Quite barren if you ask me.

    My plan for the next round is to get the GreatLibrary Parthenon combo, And to tech out to lib. Should i get Sistine chapel for the lolz? Not sure at the moment. After that i will improve my empire with libraries/Forge/Uni and head for lib. I think i may try and lib steal, but if i dont then i'll just take printing press or nationalism.

    I expect this map to have alot of wars, already welliam and spain are at war.
     
  20. yru

    yru Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Helsinki
    1515 AD emp conquest

    Wow. That was by far the most difficult map I've ever played. I've been going at this game off and on for over 3 months trying to figure out what strategy would get me a good win.

    Spoiler :

    Every other try I got an early DoW from Rags and Mao, plus usually Nappy (plus sometimes Boudica and/or Izzy... I swear my diplo and power ratings weren't THAT bad!), which would slow me down enough to end up at a stalemate with Izzy or Boudica by industrial times. I could have seen some games through but I figured I was doing something wrong and needed to figure it out. Then I would try again with another strategy.

    In the end, the only thing that worked was an axe rush on Ragnar. Coincidentally, Rags had founded hinduism and Mao judaism, which ended up with a much more fractured religious landscape than every other time. I'm sure this helped speed up my victory, but I think the big difference was getting all that green land in Rags' peninsula rather than having to expand into garbage.

    Mostly good land for the AI, plus not so much good land for Germany, plus aggressive/protective neighbors with practically no bribing possibilities made this one a challenge even with big tech advantages throughout the game.


    This was really a deceptively tough map. I was just thinking I was ready to move up to Immortal, but maybe I'll wait a few more games... Thanks for the great map!
     

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