Sons of Monarchy XIV: Ramesses II of Egypt

[ben-jammin]

Thanks Kingjester, maybe Izuul accidentally had the wrong difficulty selected in the menu? I recall having something weird happen with the AI bonuses once with a WB save but I think I actually loaded it as a custom scenario. Now I load them as a regular scenario and they work fine.

 

[Zindaras]

About early rushes.

Spoiler :

I personally mostly regret not taking out Saladin when I had the opportunity. I don't think that rushing Louis is necessarily a good idea, as it also gives Saladin, Hannibal and Alexander, more dangerous opponents, with more room to expand into. On the other hand, though, maybe the better land is also pretty relevant. Eh, I was feeling pretty good about not rushing Louis until I got into a war with Saladin.

 

[Giant Wolfman]

@ Izuul & ben

I should have the WB saves set up so that they default to the desired difficulty, so the Immortal save should by default choose Immortal. Unless I've been doing it wrong all these times, the only real difference between the immortal wb file and the emperor wb file (for example) is that the AI's start with Agriculture in the immortal save. AI difficulty bonuses should be based on what difficulty is chosen by you when you start the scenario up. So if you pick the Immortal save but choose noble difficulty, the AI's will be noble level but start with archery, hunting, and Agriculture.

 

[ben-jammin]

@ Izuul & ben

I should have the WB saves set up so that they default to the desired difficulty, so the Immortal save should by default choose Immortal. Unless I've been doing it wrong all these times, the only real difference between the immortal wb file and the emperor wb file (for example) is that the AI's start with Agriculture in the immortal save. AI difficulty bonuses should be based on what difficulty is chosen by you when you start the scenario up. So if you pick the Immortal save but choose noble difficulty, the AI's will be noble level but start with archery, hunting, and Agriculture.

I played the immortal save and the AIs had 3-4 archers in all their main cities. Nothing unusual, I'm guessing Izuul might have mistakenly changed the AI bonus in the scenario menu or loaded the wrong file. I wish I'd only faced 1 archer in each city

 

[Izuul]

There were a few more but the AI did wonky stuff with them. Two came after me outside of 2nd city leaving one to defend and then two were escorting a settler outside of cap leaving one to defend there too. I think I can load the 4000bc autosave and check units with WB to see what's up.

Edit: Everything looked normal in WB. Apparently it was just some really poor play by the Immortal AI.

 

[ben-jammin]

There were a few more but the AI did wonky stuff with them. Two came after me outside of 2nd city leaving one to defend and then two were escorting a settler outside of cap leaving one to defend there too. I think I can load the 4000bc autosave and check units with WB to see what's up.

Edit: Everything looked normal in WB. Apparently it was just some really poor play by the Immortal AI.

Lucky duck

 

[Manco Capac]

This event should definitely go in the thread I opened for AI greatest feats (in terms of ultimate badness).

 

[Smilingrogue]

Chiming in that Immortal save is good.

Spoiler :

I had to kill, I think, four spears to get to Athens and Alex only had copper hooked up for ten turns or so. He was definitely spamming units. He was using them poorly though as the dum-dum sent a fifth spear out to explore(!!!) while WCs were on his cap's doorstep. His last two cities each had three archers each too. I guess things looked easy for very quick rush as both Louis and Alex are in jungle heavy area and that tends to slow an AI down.

 

[Choggy]

1505AD - Domination win

Spoiler :

Cuirr stomp cheese win. Once I had met Asoka and realised that there was enough land on our continent to hit the 64% Dom limit I just went on a killing spree. No vassals - killed Hannibal, then Alex and was just as I was finishing off Washington I reached the Dom limit from culture pops off previously captured cities.

Thoughts on the AI...

Spoiler :

I see that some of the Immortal guys weren't too impressed with how the AI played...well I don't think it was Giant Wolfman's savegame, they were just inept. Slow tech rate, didn't build many units, didn't settle many cities. I didn't see a single gunpowder unit all game. Maybe the lack of good land for them to settle in slowed them down?

About one civ in particular

Spoiler :

Asoka is an interesting choice to have an an isolated civ - his favourite civic is free religion so if you can get to him first and gift him Lib (or if he builds Shawaddywaddy Paya) then an Astro beeline will net a lot of commerce without having to worry about getting hit with that stupid -4 diplo penalty for worst enemy trading because of religion hate.

Cheers for the map Giant Wolfman!

 

[rfcfanatic]

1972 Diplomatic (UN) victory, my first victory on Monarch Although, it wasn't a solid victory.

Spoiler :

Spoiler screenshot :

After the early wars, I tried to build Wealth, but it wasn't very effective. So I whipped some Markets and assigned some Merchants until my income was positive again. Only then I was able to run a couple of Scientists. A Great Merchant in Medieval era helped to boost my research slider for a short period.

It was hell of a long economic recovery. Monarch is so much different from Prince! When I finally got Rifling in 1565 AD, Washington and Saladin already had it and Hannibal soon followed. Lost the Lib rush to Washington in 1210 AD. I didn't even get a chance. On Prince, you wouldn't see such dates very often, but on Monarch it seems to be an unpleasant reality.

So I had no chance but to fight a tech parity (Rifle on Rifle) war against Washington. Assigned most of my cities on Rifles and Cannon, built superior numbers and launched a surprise attack in 1710 AD. Just for a case I reinforced the cities bordering Saladin. It turned out to be a wise move - but only because I was not wise enough to check the diplomacy screen for defensive pacts Anyway, I managed to hold out against Saladin and after pushing Washington out of the continent, I got him to capitulation in 1830 AD. Made peace with Saladin in 1775 AD - for the moment. During the war, my empire got devastated by the annoying AP "Stop the war against Washington" resolutions. I was stupid to neglect Drama.

After Washington capitulated, Saladin and Hannibal were already nearing Infantry. So I decided to do the same. In 1921 AD when I had built superior numbers of Infantry and Artillery and some Anti-Tanks for countering Hannibal's Tanks, I attacked Hannibal. Pushed him out of the continent and got him to capitulation in 1943 AD by leaving him with one city he took from Asoka.

Then it was time to prepare a war against Saladin. But I saw a Modern Armor That was going to be a nasty modern war. Although my Power graph looked promising,

Spoiler power graph :

I couldn't just play like AI Monty and rely on superior numbers of Infantry and Artillery. I needed a solid air force. Beelined Advanced Flight and spammed Jet Fighters and a smaller number of Bombers and a sizable force of Gunships. As Saladin was nearing a Space Race victory I had no chance but to DoW on him in 1961 AD while being technologically inferior to him.

While my Jet Fighters kept Saladin's Modern Armor and Mech Infantry busy healing, my numerous Infantry, Artillery and Gunships advanced towards his cities. In 1962 AD, Saladin did it - he launched a Tactical Nuke, crippling one of my size-40 stack. He basically nuked his own territory. That's the spot:

Spoiler screenshot :

Luckily, it only crippled, not killed. Quickly I sent some Gunships and Mech Infantry (which by the time I already had) to protect it. Also, I located my supermedic Cavalry and upgraded him to Super MediCopter. While my crippled stack took cover in a forest near Damascus, the supermedic helped to heal it up. Meanwhile, Saladin was stupid enough to build the UN only for me to control. The first thing I did was to pass the NNPT. No more nukes! I dislike nuclear wars anyway.

After the stack was sufficiently healed, it was time to take Damascus with the help of Jet Fighters and Bombers. A couple of more cities fell. But many Artillery died in the process. You can see the losses here:

Spoiler statistics :

Artillery is really effective against Infantry. But against Mech Infantry, especially protective Mech Infantry, they get a little bit overwhelmed.

I wanted to finish off the game before Saladin got his SS ready for launch. So when the chance came, I voted for the Diplomatic victory. In the end, Saladin only missed Genetics:

Spoiler techs :

which prevented him building the SS Stasis Chamber

Spoiler victory conditions :

Later I noticed from the screen that I wasn't far from the Domination victory myself.

My end score sucks badly. I don't remember when was the last time I finished with such a bad score:

Spoiler end score :

I guess the end score is strongly correlated to finish date, but the correlation to game difficulty is very weak or non-existent.

There was one AI that wasn't any threat at all - Asoka. Even on Monarch, I was able to out-tech him. I ended up being at war with him because he had been capitulated to Saladin. He could easily take my ill-defended coastal cities by surprise, but he didn't.

One generic question about Chariot and HA rushes - do you guys build libraries and run scientists before or after the war?

Giant Wolfman, thanks for the map!

 

[Smilingrogue]

Congrats on your first Monarch win, rfcfanatic!

As for rushing and libraries, if you are trying to archer/axe/chariot/spear*/sword rush or their assorted Unique Unit counterpart rushes, you want to rush ASAP. For instance if the goal is Sword/Praetorean (or the other Sword replacements) rush, we should tech what we absolutely need right away and nothing else. This generally comes down to probably a food tech or two, then straight to IW, wheel if necessary to hook up the Iron and then we chop whip and focus entirely on pumping out units. Recovery techs like Pottery and Writing should be teched during the rush via conquest gold and libraries should be built after the rush is over or we have such a commanding position over our target that no more units are needed.

*Spear rushes are really only worth it with Holkans and Impis and they won't do too hot beyond Monarch in my humble opinion.

Things are different for a later rush like Horse Archer or Catapults or Elepults. HBR can be teched without libraries but takes a while, Vicawoo wrote a very nice HA rush guide that discusses the various approaches. For the Cata/Ele rushes, you absolutely want writing and libraries to speed up the process.

 

[Smilingrogue]

Immortal, Normal Speed, No Huts, No Events, Domination win in 1575 AD.
Continued from first report.

Spoiler :

The pyramids saved my butt big time. My economy was shot for a long time. At the end of the game when not building wealth in cities and at 0% slider I was barely eking out 100 gold per turn, I generally make a lot more than that at this stage. But doing horrible things to my economy, losing all my workers and then pulling myself out of the hole was a good confidence builder for me at Immortal level. I dread to imagine what would have happened if I didn't build the pyramids though.

Anyways, the turns after killing Alex weren't all that exciting. I slowly rebuilt my worker force and used Rep powered scientists to continue to tech. I was beaten to Lit by Saladin but I beat him to the Great Library in 425 AD.

Spoiler :

I spawned a bunch of Great Scientists out of Paris thanks to TGL stacked on NE. Two built an academy each in Athens (my new cap) and Lyons (settled in a very nice area with tonnes of riversides which I cottaged).

I part bulbed Edu, then completely bulbed Philo and won Lib in 1020 AD.

Spoiler :

I actually teched to within one turn of Lib before that, but I was waiting for taking something better. But I changed my mind and took Nat for two reasons. One, I wanted a Golden Age desperately to spawn a Great Merchant for upgrading my WCs/HAs and Knights to Cuirs and two, I didn't meet Asoka yet as the screen shot shows and I was worried the unknown AI might ninja Lib.

I have never seen a Barb Horse Archer outside of that "Haha! You lose!" Vedic Aryan event.

Spoiler :

I read that the Barbs can spawn HAs, but this is the first time I saw a legit one.

I didn't switch to a religion as I didn't want to become a target for either block, though the Taoist block only had Washington in it. But Saladin came along and made this demand in 1100 AD and I was quite happy to oblige.

Spoiler :

I was trying to generate a Great Scientist to bulb Printing Press but my National Epic generated a Great Artist at like 3% odds.

Spoiler :

Good thing I already bulbed all I wanted to bulb and needed a Golden Age anyway.

Speaking of Golden Age, this finished the next turn and gave me a stacked GA.

Spoiler :

I won the race to Economics by finishing the tech on the same turn as Hanni and thankfully got the Great Merchant for it in 1160 AD.

Spoiler :

He was sent to Asoka land for a nice trade mission allowing me to upgrade my assorted cavalry units to Cuirs and it was time to go whup Washington.

Spoiler :

I lost the screen shot of the war declaration but the war went smoothly. He capped in 1430 AD.

Spoiler :

I had rifling by now and I spawned yet another GM who again went to India for a nice chunk of change and that meant Cavs ahoy! Hanni capped after a mere three turn war.

Spoiler :

I was worried he would bring Saladin into the affair and begged for a peace treaty before declaring. This delayed my win by about seven turns as I sat around and twiddled my thumbs waiting for it to run out.

Saladin capped after a six turn war.

Spoiler :

He was willing to cap before that, but I wanted to take his two holy cities. Then I realised I was already over 61% land.

Spoiler :

So I took his capitulation, squeezed in cities where there was empty room on the continent and after running the culture slider for two turns, I crossed the Domination limit.

Spoiler :

Statistics:

Spoiler :

I could have easily beaten Asoka and was in fact building up a navy half-heartedly to do just that. But it didn't come to it as it would have been merely tedium to ship Cavs over to his Rifle-less island and cap him after taking a city or two to show I mean business.

Thanks a lot for the map Giant Wolfman, it was a lot of fun!

 

[rfcfanatic]

@Smilingrogue

Thanks, I'll check out the guide

 

[dmd175]

Monarch, NHNE, to 25 BC

Spoiler :

Decided to really use the UU WC, since just did the NC with an industrious leader and wonder spammed.

Spoiler :

Still built SH, GW, and Mids and probably I should not have but the culture from SH and allowing priests, and then not having to worry about barbs along a long front was helpful.

The basic game plan is shown in the world map at 25 BC, with a mass of war chariots going

Spoiler :

1) clockwise from Greece

Spoiler :

2) to Carthage (once I saw Carthage I thought it was too good of a capital and had to go, so brought the 6 survivors north...)

Spoiler :

3) SE to France to meet up with reinforcements from core

Spoiler :

It was helpful to leave Thebes as a military 2 turn WC city and moved my capital to Athens (even though luckily I got gems in Thebes ).

Spoiler :

Left France as roadkill and took all tech

Spoiler :

4) and now remobilizing to hurt Arabia.

• Plan will be to take out and/or feudalism/cap France/Arabia/Carthage ASAP and then onto Washington.
• I've found on this relatively food poor start I hardly whipped at all. Is that right? What do the higher level players do, still whip?
• Diplomacy: there won't be any I think, I'm not well liked, so will try to finish the Eastern three civs with WC.
• Maintenance is going to kill me as I'm spread all around this inner lake. FP may help and I have to cottage more. Already have currency, but my breakeven science rate is 10% (only +25 gpt at 0%).

 

[dmd175]

Spoiler :

So in my prior post to 25 BC, I ...conquered most of France/Carthage and wiped out Greece.

In the early ADs, decided to finish the job:
Carthage

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

France

Spoiler :

As I was preparing for attack arc #4 (Washington? or Saladin?...but he is protective), the economy really tanked...here is the known world with me making -15 gpt at 0% research.

Spoiler :

Now I had currency and OB with both Washington and Saladin. Building markets. Killed off excess units against France/Carthage.

The economy was in the tank for most of the AD to 1000 AD with me falling behind Washington in tech as he is getting fedualism, guilds, gunpowder, etc. I might have to fight this one from behind.


My plan was to go for conquest victory, since it's my rarest victory type. Clearly I do not know how to do it. My question to the advanced players is how to better gauge the economy v. conquest, while leveraging a military advantage early which I clearly had in numbers and a superior UU. Right around 600 at the last screen shot I was going to prune Washington a city or two (and raze Seattle and SF) but decided against it b/c he just popped out a LB.

What could I have done better:
--Courthouses: I did not build these early enough, and as of 1000 AD I don't even have CoL.
--Raze more cities. Saladin spammed right up into my face, taking the N/NW sides of that inner lake.
--Otherwise I am not sure; I cottaged well enough and early enough. I have been trading with both people.
--My tech rate is so poor that Optics to meet another island is a pipe dream. As I review my screenies from above I see I was doing construction in 450 AD Then I went for aesthetics, for trade bait...debatable decision.


What I'm going to do:
--Courthouses!
--After aesthetics I gambled, and won, on music and got the GA.

Spoiler :

--During this GA I will build CH and research MC for forges.
--Keep Washington/Saladin happy (I converted to Hindu when demanded by Saladin, since he is spiritual).
--Keep military strength up. I have Heliopolis and Thebes as military cities.
--I need great people.
--Need the foreign palace. I might build Versailles to help with maintenance though I know many people don't build this (letting AI do the work).

 

[ben-jammin]

You just way overextended yourself, and kept cities that cost far more than they were worth instead of razing them. And it looks like you did so at a difficulty level with low maintenance costs.

 

[Choggy]

@dmd175:

Spoiler :

The trick with an early rush is to set your goals beforehand in terms of who you want to rush and how many cities you want and then stop once that goal has been reached. You've now found out the hard way what happens if you get too greedy early on

 

[dmd175]

@ben-jammin, choggy

Spoiler :

there is no doubt that too many cities were kept. but I was hoping to get some insight into conquest victory, which is something I almost never get.

assuming I set a city goal and razed the rest, is the best strategy for conquest, in this case to hit saladin / washington and try to get them to each capitulate?

 

[The Oz-Man]

dmd:

Spoiler :

I disagree--your economy's doing fine. The main thing is that you have no cities building Wealth to hold you over until you can get Courthouses online. Yes, part of the problem is that you kept some garbage cities (Looking at you, Goth!), but you're also building garbage buildings like monasteries and lighthouses--buildings that, while useful, aren't going to save your economy, which is what you need. You have Currency and you're playing on Monarch; just have high production cities build Wealth while you get your act together, and the economy will come back to life before you know it.

 

[dmd175]

Oz

Spoiler :

Thanks for careful review and feedback.

I didn't build wealth because I didn't know if that was "fair", e.g. if that's what top players actually did after digesting a large conquest.

I did a worldbuilder test at 560AD to simulate razing of cities (560 AD is right after capture of last of carthage cities) and the results are impressive:
--In my original game, at 0% science, gpt = -26 gpt
--In the worldbuilder test, at 0% science, gpt = +22 gpt

Spoiler :

This is with razing Goth, Rheims, Orleans, and Hadrumentum. Kept Utica for Confucian shrine, though arguably as no one following it could have razed it. In a re-do, I would have liked to kept Hadrumentum because I helped me connect Carthage to the Greek core.

Stay tuned though...Goth becomes a strong double-gold city in the future (though I guess eventually any city can become useful)