Soren - new tech trading system has ruined the game!

Agreed. Its no fun.. Tech race is no race anymore, you just get all the tech fast or trade so no real race. BORING!!!! Please fix or do I have to go back to 1.16 again?

/Mathias
 
A little elaboration.

It's not that the game's too hard, as I can still open up a can of whoop ass on Monarch. The problem is that the tech race is gone! Now, the game may as well give every nation every tech at a preset date (i.e., we all get writing at 3000 BC, we all get Military Trad. at 400 AD, etc.). There is no diversity of technical knowledge or armed forces.

Not to mention, if you don't use the dang foreign advisor every two minutes, you'll find your archers facing mech infantry.

If my current game ends up being as unfun as I think it's going to be, I'm not playing again until there's a new patch. This is the first time I'm having any inclination to quit playing because of the game's flaws. I've always been willing to accept imperfections, but this one element of this patch has turned the whole game on its head!
 
Agreed Jeff!

I agreed already (before today) because of the severe imbalance in research. Today I've discovered that the new aggressive trading may have also (not that it needs another nail in its coffin IMO) imbalanced another aspect of the AI. I think it has sometimes made it more mindlessly aggressive.

I've been playing some fast game starts to improve my understanding of tradeoffs in 1.17. What happened today is a huge war at a level of mindlessness I never experienced before 1.17. It is as if the AI suddenly became much more aggressive.

It is a standard size map, Pangaea, Monarch, with 7 random rivals.

I set my research to zero. (A mindless but quite viable technique with the 1.17 patch, accumulate money rapidly and pay a fraction of it for slightly old techs to keep up. This gives a more chance to build at least some of the available units and improvements as technology hurtles forward.)

I was, by a slight margin, the most cultured, most powerful, and largest Civ after a while, about 800 BC. (BTW, everyone is just about finished with Ancient Times at this date, without me having contributed any effort to research.) Suddenly the Iroquois declare war on me even though there is a Civ between us, they have 4 more logical targets for war, and there is no apparent reason to target me. (We had tolerable relations, I had no resources they needed, there was even still unsettled land available.) This kind of thing happened before the patch too, no big deal so far. They were probably just feeling feisty and wanted to put their UU to some use. Perhaps relations were better with everyone else due to the nonstop trading they do.

Two turns later, a total of 5 rival Civs had joined various alliances against me. I'm in a mindless war with nearly everyone. This is weird and is a kind of behavior I had not experienced before the patch. Early total mindless war by almost all the AI Civs (one holdout was a Civ we had not met yet, the other was the weakest on the map) for no reason I could discern.

My guess as to what is happening is that the new "more aggressive trading" has resulted in the AIs offering, and accepting, military alliances just in order to get some trading done. Perhaps they want to trade so badly that they'll trade anything, including pointless alliances.

All of the enemy Civs sent their available units in groups of 2 and 3, trekking across the long continent toward a single town of mine which has nothing special except for domination of one luxury. I defended the town without any major concern. After some turns a number of the AIs offered peace if I would pay enormous sums of money. I refused, they weren't hurting me. But it is interesting that they were ready to renege on their alliances if only I would trade with them. Some turns later, with no real change in the situation, they were suddenly prepared to pay ME for peace!

The whole thing feels like in 1.17 the AI has been replaced by the Borg. With 1.16 it felt a bit like I was meeting the Vulcans, the Klingons, the Romulans, etc. Now it often feels like whereever I go, any interesting life which used to exist has been assimilated before I arrive. The other Civs act like a collective, in research and sometimes in military action, with no guiding central intelligence. During the war, ones, twos, and threes of single-minded units kept arriving at my town at separate times. I could almost hear them drone "resistance is futile" as they mindlessly attacked and died. Before 1.17 I could play in many styles, as the Ferengi, as the Klingons, etc. When meeting the Borg with 1.17, responses are more limited.

Although I'm joking about it, the word which comes to mind for how the play felt is "tedious". It would have been an easy game to win but there was no reason to.
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
Agreed Jeff!

I agreed already (before today) because of the severe imbalance in research. Today I've discovered that the new aggressive trading may have also (not that it needs another nail in its coffin IMO) imbalanced another aspect of the AI. I think it has sometimes made it more mindlessly aggressive. . .

Although I'm joking about it, the word which comes to mind for how the play felt is "tedious". It would have been an easy game to win but there was no reason to.

Yes.

"Tedious" is the word I've used many times to describe Civ III especially after 1.17. Trading, the tech race, and so much more, are all a crock.

I've noticed that no matter how hard I try to beeline to a certain tech advance invariably when I reach the tech that enables a Wonder, within one or two turns at least two other civs immediately start building it! Obviously, that cheating AI passes around whatever tech the human discovers. :mad:
 
yea ... i agree with u guys ... the AI seems to go nuts with the other civs for trading, but i have seen some anomilties that i really cant explain... i have seen the AI a few tecks behind the leaders in my games, but that is ONLY late in the game, usually industrial age, but in the early years the AI goes nuts for trade and really doesnt like to trade jack with the player, unless u build a huge army and stomp a few heads then ONLY that will earn u the respect to trade evenly (reasonably even that is) and even your civ up on the teck race, but then u are despised by half the world for the rest of the game because u are an evil warmonger

the tactic of setting your research to zero (when i do this, i set it to 10% instead) is a VERY valid one and just trade your gold per turn or some resorces for teck, the deal only last for 20 turns then u get all your cash back ... then u can trade for more, so when u think about it u ARE getting old tecks in 20 turns (getting it imeadiatly but paying for it in 20 turns) so if u get 5 tecks out of a deal, u are centuries in front of having to research it yourself
that is how i usually get through the ancient age, then i go stright for military tradition, then stomp heads and get all those culture tecks that u neglected

ive had games where im doing well in research, and actually keeping up with the AI in research, and i come to a new teck that no one has, is going to take me 30 turns or whatever, then a few turns down the track the AI actually gets the teck, trades it with everyone then the next turn i have almost finished the research, this is good as it keeps most of the civs close to an even level in teck BUT it lowers the importance of being the teck leader as by being such a brainy civ, u are making it sooo much easier for all the other civs to research up to u and making your new teck much less valuable as u have just halved the cost for all the other civs in the world

i think the biggest problem is in the early years, the AI NEVER EVER contacts the player to trade tecks and if u are ribbed out just 1 teck in the start of the game this will create an impossable situation for u in the early years as u fall behind so fast as all the AI's keep trading with each other and leave u out of the picture.

i made up a term for this early game start, i call it the slingshot ... if your first few turns are not perfect and u meet a few civs willing to trade with u before they meet anyone else, then u can trade with them and "slingshot" yourself and be a teck power early in the game, otherwise u will languash in poverty and be teck striken for most of the game, if u start near any of the militeristic civs then your civ will be dumb for many years to come, but the same AI civs have no qualms trading with any other AI civ, just yours

i agree sirpleb, i think the AI uses military alliences to much for the trading of tecks, or perhaps due to the massive trading of everything the AI civs get real friendly and they all look at the bastard that isnt trading anything with them (becasue they wont trade with u!!) and see u as the great evil ... either way ... this bites!!

there are some massive gameplay and ballance issues here that cant be fixed by the editor and has been made much worse with the new patch :(
 
SirPleb: Thank you for putting that point, which is exactly what I feel, into so fitting words! You hit dead center!

I also see the AI moving troops like Borg with 1.16, but they actually go for gambles, and if those don`t work they`ll regroup, team up, and then I have a really hard time. Like yesterday I paid through my nose to get the French to ally with me so they wouldn`t go for me while I was fighting the Russians. Cost me World Map + 1000 gold! That`s a reason for a war when your per turn income is around 3 or 4! Not like with 1.17 where they do it for free.
Then they moved their troops through and I saw a stack of 37 Horsemen that waited each turn for it`s 3 Spearmen cover! Coordinated attack?? Not really, but a lot better then 1.17!
 
I've come up with a way to stop the AI from trading like mad - make sure they have nothing to trade WITH! In the Ancient era, at least. Empty their treasuries, whatever you have to do in order to do so. It can be a reasonable choice to sell Writing or something for 10 gold if that's all they have, but it's better to clean them out for RoP's (they will pay through the nose for these) and maps. Keep in mind that, once you have Map Making, you can get a minimum of 2 gold off each civ each turn - sell your Territory Map for 1, then your World for 1. They will take this even if you have done no exploration since you last sold maps to them last turn. Also, give everyone contact with everyone else ASAP to keep them from trading that. Now, since they'll all have their research at 100%, the only way they'll get any more gold is from goody huts - and if you keep track, you can snap that up the next turn.

By doing this, you can keep the AI from having anything of value except maps to trade - and they don't seem too eager to trade maps among themselves, especially if you're doing mad map trading with everyone on your own. By doing this, I have induced a spread of up to 6 techs between the AIs by the end of the Ancient era.
 
Originally posted by Beamup
By doing this, I have induced a spread of up to 6 techs between the AIs by the end of the Ancient era.

Good post. I have been able to get up to 4 techs ahead on Emperor level.

(That changed however, when I instigated a very unwise war. I attacked with too few knights, and not enough bombard. They won several lucky combats and stopped my advance. They counterattacked and I found myself involved in a long war. I had to invest everything in pikemen. So much for my tech lead!

We did courtmartial the responsible generals.)
 
Yes, there were some complaints from some people who said it was impossible to get to the modern age before 2050 A.D. on Chieftain level. Unfortunately, in many people's games now (on levels above Chieftain (post patch) the modern era is around 1500 A.D. (or earlier). So it looks like it went from one extreme to the other.

Things are so out of hand that in my current game (diety, normal map, 8 civs), by 10BC some civs had Riflemen, and by +/- 500AD they had Tanks. Typically i was 10-15 techs behind every civ, but managed to expand by being aggressive at key moments (with the help of allies), using Riflement/Cav vs Infantry, and then even Infantry as my main attack force (!). One civ even had Modern armor before i even got Tanks.. To add to the whole ridicule, by the time i had Infantry i controlled 1/4th of the map but didnt have rubber. And now that i need Aluminium i don't have any either even though i control 1/3rd of the map. In fact, the continent (an inversed "U") has Aluminium only on one branch, except for a small part of the branch i'm on which is far from me. Simply totally ridiculous!

So i would agree that AI should get a decrease in tech rate and especially in the amount of trades they do between each other.

Anyways, i'm just frustrated right now (by this and the uber-low bombard hit-rate)...

-corv-
 
I am keeping a close eye on trqading.... ) In 1225AD, Rome had 0 gold, and was 3 techs behind me.Germany was 1 behind 44 gold, France one behine, 0 gold. Russia even 42 gold, and Greece even, 30 gold. In 1200 Rome was even with 44 gold, Germany one ahead, 0 gold, france still one behind, and russia even. No outside contacts. Germany could have been researching Horsback Riding. Rome could have been researching 1, not three. and could not buy. I offered to sell her one in 1225--"Not possible" No gold, nothing to trade. How did she get ahead 3? Might have researched or found (goody hut) horseback, and sold it to Germany--except she did not have horseback. And she did have the gold Germany used to have. Was Gibt?
Germany wanted 340 gold for horsback riding. after a few turns she sold it to Russia, who only had 42 gold.... and russia sold it to me for 145.
Then we discovered Egypt, Persia and Bab.... all with 0 gold and about 6 techs behind. I did not check stats as close n them, since by then I had the Great libaray, and was getting every tech.
Another thing: I set up embassies in 1200, all around. With NO gold, they were putting 80 - 100% into tech. Not even the capitals had any improvements. At this time, my tech is going at 10%--simply because even at 100% it takes 40 turns.
This is on Regency, 1.17. I am ahead in tech, because I am going down a different track, and no longer selling. Once education hits...

That is 1200 bc and 1225 bc/

It is still happening, at 500 ad. Met the Persians and Eguptions and Indians about 500 bc. They were very backwards, like about 8 techs behind the europeans, and none had any gold. within 10 turns, they had all caught up in tech, and still had no gold....
 
People seem to focus on the military edge you get with a clear tech lead. There is another thing involved, a tech lead allows you to spot the strategic ressources before everyone else. Hence, you get to plant cities where the ressources are. This is especially useful on huge maps (i only play huge anyway) where all the available space is not taken.

loki
 
Originally posted by Corvenus
Things are so out of hand that in my current game (diety, normal map, 8 civs) . . . One civ even had Modern armor before i even got Tanks . . . .Anyways, i'm just frustrated right now (by this and the uber-low bombard hit-rate)...
-corv-

You're playing deity. They're supposed to be ahead in techs.
 
Great posts, guys! I know exactly how you feel. I feel pissed off, too. I think I´ll do some hardcore testing tonight to really find out how the AI trading works. :mad:
 
Originally posted by Hurricane
Great posts, guys! I know exactly how you feel. I feel pissed off, too. I think I´ll do some hardcore testing tonight to really find out how the AI trading works. :mad:

I would be very interested in seeing the results of your experiments. :nuke:

I think it works simply by discounting your money. If it does that, it just means you are very poor on higher levels, so you can't compete in the tech market as well. If so, this would not be an AI "cheat" any more than the lower rate of tech advances is a "cheat." Just part of the handicapping system.
 
Maybe I missed something but I think the system is okay.

Before, a civ got a new tech. Sell it to you. You make big cash by selling it to others civs.

After, a civ got a new tech and make big cash by selling it to others civs.

This is how things really work in real life. What's wrong with this. You guys cannot make enough cash anymore by exploiting a kind of bug?

Just imagine: Americans discovered Stealth in real life. It would be stupid to sell the copywright to canadian, allowing them to sell the technology everybody.
 
I'm not as good at pointing out just what is wrong as many others are, but I feel that the game is just not as fun as I expected it to be. Civilization 1&2, Colonization and Alpha Centauri all had something special about them. Something made thoose games stand out from the rest. Civ3 just don't have that.

But I won't hold it against Sid & co, they have still made a lot of good games (I'm still playing Colonization) and I'm sure they will make many more even if this one didn't keep the high expectations set by their previous games.

Civ3 is still a good game, but Firaxis, we don't want just good games, we want THE BEST games ;)
 
Originally posted by SirPleb

It is a standard size map, Pangaea, Monarch, with 7 random rivals.
...
I was, by a slight margin, the most cultured, most powerful, and largest Civ after a while, about 800 BC.
...
Two turns later, a total of 5 rival Civs had joined various alliances against me. I'm in a mindless war with nearly everyone. This is weird and is a kind of behavior I had not experienced before the patch

SirPleb, I have experienced this before the patch in some of my early games. From reading other posts, I see several other players have also experienced this with version 1.16 and earlier. Seems like you have stumbled onto the "sour" portion of the curve as far as Civs ganging up on you. A minor adjustment in game play will probably move you off this spot, though I have no idea what that adjustment is, or what makes the sour part of the curve so sour.
 
Originally posted by BillChin


SirPleb, I have experienced this before the patch in some of my early games. From reading other posts, I see several other players have also experienced this with version 1.16 and earlier. Seems like you have stumbled onto the "sour" portion of the curve as far as Civs ganging up on you. A minor adjustment in game play will probably move you off this spot, though I have no idea what that adjustment is, or what makes the sour part of the curve so sour.

The minor adjustment I have made to counteract the imcreased friendliness of the AI civs towards each other, is to sign ROP agreements with anybody who will listen. When one civ declares war on you, they will not be able to easily or cheaply find allies, because of the huge reputation penalty for the ROP backstab. Over time, if you continue renewing these ROPs, the other civs actually come to like you. I won my last game with a diplomatic victory in 1640 as soon as I built the UN. Unlike most victories of this type, I did not have to unite the entire world using MPPs against my opponent. In fact, I was not even at war with the other candidate. I simply had had ROPs and numerous trade agreements with everyone.
 
Originally posted by BillChin I have experienced this before the patch in some of my early games. From reading other posts, I see several other players have also experienced this with version 1.16 and earlier. Seems like you have stumbled onto the "sour" portion of the curve as far as Civs ganging up on you.
Yes, that's true, and it could be that the curve hasn't even changed in 1.17, that it is in the same place and I hit it by chance. The game is so complex with so many factors balanced against each other that it is very hard to tell. I'm speculating for sure when I guess that the curve moved as a side effect of the tech trading.

I've played a couple more game starts and am still finding that it feels more like meeting the Borg in 1.17, even in games where I don't hit the ganging-up thing :)
 
I'm in overall agreement.

But what I see as the problem has been the same since the game came out. The AI will IMMEDIATELY trade techs amongst themselves and offer the human ridiculous terms. Result is that all AI civs have exactly the same techs and the human is trailing. This changes somewhat when wars affect the trade of tech, but essentially the AIs are able to keep up with each other.

I've always thought that the flow of technology should somehow match the rate of communication in a typical era. For example, in the ancient error, you may have to wait 5-8 turns in order to trade a recently discovered technology. (Reasoning is that traders had to travel great distances and face incredible hazards in order to trade with other civs).

It would be even better if this could be factored in for distance. (For example, in a traditional starting point map of Earth, it would take longer for tech trade between China and England on the other side of the world than with Japan next door.)

-- -- --
The rate of tech research is definatly screwie. I'm playing regent level in my 1.17 game and I'm ready to roll out tanks in the 1400's. (8 Civs).

-- -- --
In addition, it also seems that the civs will always follow the same research path. Not positive about this, but based on the number of turns it takes to research my next tech after I have just finished one, there is always one that is 4 turns (the minimum) and one or more that is 16 to 20 turns. No in-between. (If you don't know... the more civs that "know" a certain tech, the less time it takes to research it). So, I'm lead to believe that all the civs have researched the same tech and/or rapidly traded it amongst themselves.

-- -- --

Some strategies to deal with this --

I've been able to keep up in my 1.17 game by making good trades. War among the AI has been helpful... since the all have the same techs, I check for the best deal. I've been extremely lucky in that I'm sitting on at least 5 deposits of coal (this retched stretch of jungle has come in handy!). The other civs has none. I even traded horses for an advanced tech.

Also -- I have been taking the "road less traveled" up the tech tree. Instead of trying to "keep up" and researching a 4 turn tech, I will go after one of the 16 turn research time techs. It doesn't pay off all the time, but i have been able to trade a newly discovered tech to multiply civs and bridge the tech gap.

Sequence of trading -- NEVER trade a recently discoverd tech "between turns" when the AI approaches you. Reason is that the AI will INSTANTLY turn around and trade it to almost all other civs. The ones it doesn't trade it to have NOTHING to offer. This causes a cascade effect... one AI trades to another who trades to another, etc. You have lost your trump card. Always trade your tech on your turn and always try to trade it to as many civs as possible (political/military situation permitting). If you wait one turn, it will be traded to most other civs by the AI.

One of the few tech trades I avoid are the once leading up to armor. I prefer to be the first with armor if possible and use it to crush a nearby civ if possible.
 
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