Soren - new tech trading system has ruined the game!

Originally posted by Marzipan
A change I would like to see is to have a minimum amount of time to get a tech up and running if you obtain it in a trade. This could be adjusted if you have more or less universities or libraries than some base value. For example I think the pace of technological growth would be more realistic if you have to wait 4 turns after obtaining a tech in a trade before you are credited with having that tech and can then move on to the next advance. While you are waiting for that time to elapse, the pace of advances you are doing the research in yourself should be unchanged though. Then you could also say that if a player has at least 3 libraries, you get the traded tech in 3 turns, and if you also have at least 3 universities, you get the traded tech in 2 turns. Could we have this change Firaxis? ;)

Originally posted by Moulton
Wouldn't the obvious thing to do here be to make the AI value it's techs the same way the human player would? I'm not going to trade technology to a potential enemy (and everyone is a potential enemy) which might give them the ability to match my military or industrial capabilities. Shouldn't the AI think the same way?

Too complicated. Changes like these would require heavy beta testing, and we all know Firaxis won´t do that. If they´d just put something like this in, I´m sure everybody would cry for a v1.19 patch.

The solution is, IMHO, pretty simple. Just lower the tech devaluation, perhaps to a maximum 50% discount. Also, reduce the value of world maps, especially those that have little new information to show. I think this would solve the problem pretty neatly.
 
Aside from that, the AIs need varying tech paths. From what i can see they all research the same tech, the first one to discover it trades it away, and they all start anew on a different tech. This occurs towards the early industrial ages. Theres still a modest amount of tech trading through the early middle ages, between the AIs anyway. I've never once been approached by the AI to trade for a tech.

I'm trying to think if the tech paths were more original in 1.16. I know the AI usually made it a priority to pick up steam power and industrialization, but i can remember a few picking up medicine. Same would go with the chivalry and gunpowder paths.

Also in my current game the AI didn't research Military Tradition. We progressed passed industrialization until i finally broke down and researched it myself. I ended up selling it to the two civs who could actually give me more than 2 gold/turn to level the playing field, next turn everybody had it. Would have been no fun just steamrolling everyone with cavalry.

I've also heard of similiar cases where the AI refused to research chivalry.

On a different note,
The game still plays much like i was tech brokering. I just go to extra lengths to pick up every strategic/luxury resource. I have four sources of iron, which is netting me 275 g/t. French colony, saltpeter? I'll drop a city on top of it. ;) I still have enough money to buy techs despite (though i can't figure out how) my violating trade agreements and having to pay in lump sum.
 
Tried a more aggressive approach to tech trading. SInce itis apparant that every AI gets a tech on the next turn, I sold Gunpowder to every civ who could pay anything at all in 1150. Got a total of 231 gold plus 40g/t. France offered a map, 3 said it was not possible. 0 gold in their treasury. Next turn all four had gunpowder. Don't know how, dont care, they could not have paid anyway.
Two turns later Germany finishes Astronomy. I willing to sell for only 1700g. Next turn 1370, then 1020. Next turn I buy it for 200
Sell on same turn to all who will pay anything more than a map. Not much... about 40 gold plus two luxuries. India, Greece, Russia, persia, Japan, Bab, and Egypt cannot pay. Next turn they all have Astronomy. When Gmy or France gets Navigation, I should have Chemistry done. Buy and sell again, meanwhile moving on toward Magnetism and Menof War. Lets see if this works out.
 
Originally posted by Moulton
Next turn all four had gunpowder. Don't know how, dont care, they could not have paid anyway.
Russia, persia, Japan, Bab, and Egypt cannot pay. Next turn they all have Astronomy.
Well... That really says it all, does it? No one is able to explain how these civs, twice, were able to buy the tech while they had no money, nothing to sell. They must have been giving a worthless world map or territory map. :mad:
another explanation, seen on another forum, would be that these civs had a gpt agreement with another civ and it expired, allowing them to buy the techs.
The AI trading algorithm seems to be so well coded they will be able to live with 0 gold, research at max rate, and still buy and sell techs by constantly shifting gpt between the other AI civs. Good job firaxis :whipped: ! How come my @#! advisors are not able to make all these subtle calculations for me ? The game would be a lot of fun, dragging units on the map would be the only random (read, human) element left. :mad:

back to 1.16, you know why.
loki
 
oh, you know, that`s just the random numbers. OK, admittedly, it is a rare occurence, but that`s what random means, rare things can happen...... :lol:

I`ve heard that sermon every time I whined about combat - now many people say the RNG is a little strange - not defective, but maybe unsuited for this game - and double their HP.

And I`ve heard it again and again about leader frequency. And trade... and and and etc etc etc.

I`m so tired of this game, but on the other hand I`m addicted....

Let us hope for the next patch! And the one after that... :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by loki

The AI trading algorithm seems to be so well coded they will be able to live with 0 gold, research at max rate, and still buy and sell techs by constantly shifting gpt between the other AI civs. Good job firaxis :whipped:

Well, if civ A gives 50gpt to civ B; civ B gives 50gpt to civ C; and civ C gives 50 gpt to civ A, none of them should need any gold at all to do the trading, right? :rolleyes:
 
Indeed. The notion of "profit", or "technological edge" which could be provided by a careful trading of known techs are non existent for the AI.

loki
 
Just one example from my experience...

None of the civs have much gold in my current 1.17f game. That really hurt the Japanese because they could not upgrade their musketmen & were destroyed by my cavalry in a few turns. Pretty sad since they had Leonardo's.

I did see some civs lag behind in tech a little when it looked like they really were out of money. Part of my strategy was trading luxuries & sometimes resources to them for gpt so they wouldn't have money left for tech or upgrades. So I'd say it is exploitable too.

Anyone see less war also? More trading would mean better relations, wouldn't it?

However, I still am not much of a fan of the tech insta-share.
 
the trading between AI its the low cost the human player can buy the tech for...


I might spend 4000 to research a tech or spend 3500 on infrastructure rush buys and 500 or less for a tech from the AI. This is the problem because I don't have to be the tech leader to win, there is no reason to research through most of the game.

Speaking of experience regent through emperor 1.17f
 
It is pretty dull that all of the AI's choose the exact same tech path :(

This is especially true about half way through the middle ages, before then they'd generally get new techs in pairs.
 
Keep in mind, on my report, that Gmy was putting max into research, 40%, Russia max at 60%, France and India max at 40%. There fore, since I only put 90% on resaearch, and had a smaller city base (Tho still #1 in population) I could only produce 287 beakers per turn. Germany, being scientific, of course got much faster results, at 40% --although strangly, the total commerce=329, beakers 165 seems a little more than 40%---but they wouldn't lie, now would they???
Anyway, producing 165 to my 287, she was only able to research tech about 2 turns faster than I could. Same with India, producing 159 beakers she got banking in 8 turns. first civ to get it. only one to research it. When I selected banking, it said 9 turns for me. But then I only had 287 per turn. So I went for magnetism, to build a fleet.
I am selling my map every other turn for whateve they will pay...keeping them all at 0. Traded chemistry for banking, and am watching other civs closely to see how long they take to get it. If they are will ing to sell to each other for 1 gold, i have no qualms about backing up one turn and selling the same thing for whatever they will pay.
Keeping their gold down, however, does slow their production some, since they have to favor commerce over shield. And they cannot upgrade: result-- i have been at war with America for 300 years--40 turns-- their war, they will not settle for less than a tech and gold, so they can stay at war as far as I care. It takes 6 turns to cross the ocean -- yes, ocean, in caravels -- and land 3 bowmen, who die next turn. they have had chivalry that whole time, or nearly so, and have not produced a single knight. Hmmm... maybe they just dont have horses, but surely somewhere in america there are horses. They took most of the settled land from the Aztecs alreaady. India is just now building its first elephant.Only Germany, besides me, has any knights.
I am going to try a hint from above... cut my research, and buy the next techs. If I cut back I can make several hundrd gold per turn. that will buy a lot.
I cant sink caravels.. WHY? attack 1, defense 2... the attacker loses. but when I get men-of-war---watch out america. I would sue for peace and booty---except they dont have anything to give. no tech, no lux, no resources, no gold, only american cities---REALLY close to their capital, and 3000 miles from mine. highly subject to flipping, and never more than one shield. Well, I will just keep the pressure on them, and slow their deveopment. Kill off 3 long-bowmen every turn or so.
 
Originally posted by chiefpaco
Just one example from my experience...

I did see some civs lag behind in tech a little when it looked like they really were out of money. Part of my strategy was trading luxuries & sometimes resources to them for gpt so they wouldn't have money left for tech or upgrades. So I'd say it is exploitable too.



I agree. This strategy works pretty well once into the industrial age. I trade my luxuries away to the other civs at whatever price they can afford to pay. A few end up so broke that they actually fall behind two or three techs.
 
Originally posted by No.Dice
Aside from that, the AIs need varying tech paths.

I have always thought that a weak point of the game was the way it encouraged supposedly different civs to go out and get the same techs. And I'd thought of working on a "historical tech list" to try and outline - where possible - the specific paths that certain civs followed. It's a tough job, though I'd love to do it. But I doubt it would make any difference to the mod community unless they actually had their hands on the source code, right?

R.III
 
My monarchy game is running great. The same strategy still seems to be working. But it's very very difficult to beat the AI in the tech race before the industrial age. After industrial age, the situation gets a lot better. Again, I traded all my tech out once I was 1 tech ahead, and the money I got from the other civ let me put 100% on science rate and stayed ahead of the AIs.

I also noticed that if the AI is really out of money, it will start to fall behind. In my case, the Aztecs was once a science leader, but I think I squeezed all the money out of them by selling them my techs and now it's 2 or 3 techs behind and no other AI is willing to sell techs to them (well, I guess they are also very poor right now -- they have only a couple hundred Golds in their treasury and I have more than 6000 even when my science is set to 100%.)

Hopefully, I will win the game tonight. Good luck to me :)
 
Sing it sister..sister Jeff...erm :rolleyes:

Long thread for something as obvious as this so haven´t read it. When I got the 1.17 they had some problem with the editor,so I copied my old .bic file with some adjustments over the new one, and am only having half the probs,but the in between AI civs tech trading is sick.I want 1.16 with stack movment and the little bar where it says when the borders will expand. :)
 
I won my Monarch game -- well, it probably means nothing, but at least I know that I don't have to be a warmonger to enjoy the game.

Now, I am not sure if I would like to go to a higher level. I am really not that good a player. May be a more skillful player can give it a try.
 
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