Soviet-German relations

Before finally eliminating Czechoslovaia, Hiter didn't demand anything from Poland, IIRC. He had a wise tactics - "one major enemy at a time" or "one goal at a time". He continued to implement this efficient tactics until June 1941 - when he invaded the Soviet Union before dealing with Great Britain.

In all fairness its hard to see how exactly he would go about "dealing" with Great Britain since an invasion was all but impossible and Britain was not simply going to roll over and surrender either. Strangulation through the effective co-ordination of the Luftwaffe (against port cities like Liverpool) and U-Boats might have paid off in the long run, but this was being countered by increasingly effective counter measures and code breaking. Not that Hitler was exactly had the patience for that kind of strategy mind, nor were the Luftwaffe exactly really suited for that kind of campaign either.

Not that this makes invading the Soviet Union, or a hefty chunk of his other decisions before and after June 1941 particularly wise, but whilst Britain was not "winning" against Germany at that stage, Germany was in no position to "win" against Britain (i.e. knock her out of the war) either.

But this brings us back full circle to the earlier discussion.
 
"After Munich, IIRC this was no longer required"
And USSR was just taking back what was Russia's, and Germany was taking back what was Germany's. No more complaints about September 1939 from you.

And the Munich Agreement was signed on 29 (officially) or on 30 September in the morning (according to some sources). Regarding Zaolzie - according to the Munich Agreement, Zaolzie was part of territory which was allowed - by Great Britain - to be stolen by Nazi Germany from Czechoslovakia.

The Polish ultimatum to Czechoslavkia, was presented already AFTER Polish government was informed about the provisions of the Munich Agreement - including the provision of this Agreement, which granted part of Zaolzie (which was an area with majority of Polish population) to Germany:

"(...) On 30.09.1938 at 23:45 Polish government, after receiving information about provisions of the Munich Agreement, including the plan of handing over to III Reich areas which were considered as vital sphere of Polish interests (region of Bogumin), acting preemptively to thwart the German plan of taking this territory, presented a 12-hour ultimatum to Czechoslovakia, in which Poland demanded the return of inhabited by Polish majority Zaolzie (time to respond was until October 1st, 12:00, later prolonged at the request of Czechoslovakian government until 13:00). (...)"

And on 2 October 1939 Polish forces entered Zaolzie, in agreement with Czechoslvoakian government, which accepted the Polish demands.

So much regarding the alleged "cooperation" of Poland and Germany in "partitioning" Czechoslovakia - as our fellow ardent Communist forum members sometimes claimed in various threads (at the same time denying that there was ANY cooperation between Soviets and Germans over the partition of Poland in September 1939 - even though on August 23 an agreement and later on September 28 another agreement between Soviets and Germans regarding the division of Poland were signed, while in September / October 1938 Poland DID NOT sign any agreement with Germany over the alleged "partition" of Czechoslovakia).

I do not try to completely whitewash the Polish action - because it was still an example of a dastardly exploitation of situation in order to resolve an old territorial dispute (dating back to early 1920s, when Czechoslovakia - in an equally dastardly way, exploiting the Soviet offensive on Warsaw and hard situation of Poland - occupied the Polish part of Zaolzie), but I explain how incorrect are claims that Poland cooperated with Nazi Germany.

In fact, if Poland did not occupy this territory, it would have been occupied by Nazi Germany anyway.

There are more differences between Polish occupation of Zaolzie in 1938 and Soviet invasion of Eastern Poland in 1939, for example:

1a) The partition of Czechoslovakia was agreed and authorized (at Munich) by Western Powers, including Britain. And it was official.
1b) The partition of Poland was agreed and authorized only by the partitioners themselves. And it was kept as a secret.

2a) Czechoslovakia agreed on Polish ultimatum, thus Polish forces occupied the disputed area peacefully.
2b) Soviet Union presented no ultimatum. It invaded unexpectedly, without any warning, ultimatum, or declaration of war.

3a) Size of territory took by Poland from Czechoslovakia in October 1938 was 1,086 square km.
3b) Size of territory took by Soviet Union from Poland in September 1939 was 200,000 square km (or 184 times bigger).

4a) Poland - encouraged by Britain & France - refused to accept German demands, and was invaded. Later Soviets invaded from behind.
4b) Czechoslovakia succumbed to German demands, as Britain & France betrayed her and sold her to Hitler. Wehrmacht met no resistance.

5a) Soviet propaganda claimed that Eastern Poland - ethnically very mixed & diverse area - was "Western Belarus and Western Ukraine".
5b) Polish propaganda never called Zaolzie "Southern Poland" (even though ethnic Poles were clear majority of population there).

Etc., etc., etc.

Not even mentioning the whole complexity of political events between Poland & Czechoslovakia which took place prior to October 1938. As I probably already mentioned in some other thread on this forum - Poland was initially willing to help Czechoslovakia against Germany, in case of invasion. But Poland wanted to get back Zaolzie as a price for such help - but Czechoslovakia initially refused. Later it wanted to change her mind, but it was too late for Poland to discuss this again. So both sides loused up, and in both Poland and Czechoslovakia old disputes took the upper hand over fear of Germany's expansionism.

Both Poland and Czechoslovakia were victims of political games between Germany, Soviet Union, France and Britain.

And it is sad that both Polish & Czechoslovakian leaders were too blind to get over old territorial dispute, and unite against common dangers.

And USSR was just taking back what was Russia's

Oh, that would mean that only 1 of 15 countries of the Soviet Union had any interest in these lands (Russia was 1 of 15 countries of the USSR).

What a waste for the remaining 14 countries of the Soviet Union. And what an insult from you, to put " = " between Russia and Soviet Union.

BTW - did you know that 40% of Soviet soldiers who died in the Great Patriotic War, were not Russians ???

Probably not, since you are probably a Russophile. So I repeat this - Soviet Union was not Russia.

It included 15 countries, and even more nationalities and ethnicities. 40% of Red Army soldiers were not ethnic Russians. So Russia did not defeat Germany in WW2. Even on the Eastern Front. And number of Russian victims of WW2 must be reduced (or replaced by "Soviet victims of WW2").

Even your beloved Stalin was not ethnic Russian (and Stalin was not his real name). You see - everything you believe in, is just a fake.
 
as our fellow ardent Communist forum members sometimes claimed in various threads (at the same time denying that there was ANY cooperation between Soviets and Germans over the partition of Poland in September 1939
...
So I repeat this - Soviet Union was not Russia.
...
Even your beloved Stalin was not ethnic Russian (and Stalin was not his real name). You see - everything you believe in, is just a fake.
Just TL;DR, for other people who didn't bother to read all this.
Domen is breaking forum records in strawmen making :)

Cheezy, Stalin was not an ethnic Russian and it was not his real name.
Also, Soviet Union was not Russia.
Thus everything, everything you believe in, is just a fake.
Your life is ruined!
 
Regarding the Soviet invasion of Poland - it seems that during the Moscows talks of 23 August (which resulted in the signing of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact) the Soviet invasion of Poland was not finally, 100% determined - rather the final decisions regarding the Soviet military help for Germany were taken in period 3 - 5 September, as the result of continuation of previous talks:

On 3 September in the evenining - soon after the declaration of war by Britain and France - Ribbentrop wrote the following to German ambassador in Moscow (Schulenburg):

Ribbentrop said:
"... We definitely expect to beat the Polish army in several weeks. At that time we will keep the area, recognized in Moscow as the German sphere of interests, under military occupation. However due to military expediences, we will also have to advance further against Polish military forces, which at that time will also be present in areas belonging to the Russian sphere of interests.

Please immediately discuss this matter with Molotov and ascertain if the USSR considers as a desirable thing that, in an appropriate time, the Russian armed forces launch an attack against Polish armed forces located in the Russian sphere of interests and capture this territory. In our assessment it would be not only a lightening of our load, but also - in keeping with the essence of the Moscow agreements - in the best interest of the Soviet Union."

On 5 September a Soviet response from Molotov to that message of Ribbentrop reached Berlin:

Molotov said:
"... I agree with you, that in an appropriate time it will be an absolutely necessary thing for us to start a firm action. However we are of the opinion, that this time has not come yet. It is possible that we are mistaken, but it seems to us, that by excessive haste we would do harm to our common cause and increase the unity of our enemies. We understand that during the operations one of the parties - or both - may be forced to temporarily cross the demarcation line between the spheres of interests of both parties; but such cases will not disturb the precise implementation of the accepted plan."

On the other hand - first Soviet preparations for war against Poland started already before those talks - yet in late August of 1939. Already on 01.09.1939 the decision about top-secret mobilization was made. On 02.09.1939 at 8:00 PM the "state of higher emergency" was introduced along the Polish-Soviet border and all military units were ordered to be in "readiness for battle" by commander of the Border Defense Forces of Belarussian District. On 03.09.1939 marschall Kliment Voroshilov proposed to KC WKP(b) and to the Council of People Commissioners of the USSR to put off giving passes and releasing from service of all Red Army soldiers and younger commanders serving in the following military districts: Leningrad's, Moscow's, Kalinin's, Special Belarussian and Kievian (in total 310,632 persons) and to call up units of "AA defense" (26,014 soldiers) for military training. The government agreed and on 04.09.1939 the Chief Commissioner ("Narkom") issued necessary orders. On 06.09.1939 seven military districts received exact directives and instructions concerning carrying out mentioned top-secret mobilization - code name "Great training concentration" - according to the "Plan No. 22". On the same day the plan concerning food and fodder supplies of forces from the following military districts: Leningrad's, Moscow's, Kalinin's, Special Belarussian, Charkov's, Orel's and plan concerning supplies of the Red Army units in additional uniforms and other personal belongings were introduced. The "great training concentration" was to be started on 07.09.1939. Telegrams with the order to move their forces according to "Plan B", signed by Molotov, were sent to the chairman of the Councils of People Commissioners of Associations and Autonomous Republics and to District Executive Committees. Telegrams were informing that reservists are called up to the "concentration", that requisition of the automobile equipment, horses and means of transport is introduced. They were also informing that calling up to the army will be carried out basing on written summons, without publishing and announcing the order. Local authorities were ordered to help military institutions as much as they could. 22 Rifle, 3 Cavalry, 3 Armoured Corps, 98 Rifle, 14 Cavalry Divisions, 28 Armoured, 3 Motorcycle and one Airborne Brigades took part in the "great training". 2,600,000 persons were called up to the Army, 634,000 horses, 117,399 cars and 18,900 military tractors were gathered.

Not later than on 09.09.1939 the Head Commissioner of Defense and Chef of General Staff, 1st rank Comandarm, Boris M. Shaposhnikov, signed the order No. 16633 given to the Military Councils of BOWO (Bielorusskij Osobyj Wojennyj Okrug - Belarussian Special Military District), according to which "until the end of 11.09.1939 forces must be ready for determined assault, the aim of which is destroy the defending forces of the enemy in a flash." On the same day - 09.09.1939 - at 3:00 PM, Molotov informed the German ambassador - Schulenburg - about the "beginning of Soviet military actions" in "these days".

On the same day - 09.09.1939 - forces of the Belarussian Special Military District were given their first orders concerning the invasion. Soviet forces were ordered to cross the Polish border during the night from 12th to 13th of September 1939. The "Vitebsk" Army Group was ordered to capture Swieciany until the end of 13.09.1939 and later to "consider capturing Wilno". Minsk Group was ordered to attack towards Oszmiany and Lida and reach the line Molodeczno - Wolozyn until the end of 13.09.1939, and capture the region of Oszmiana and Iwie until the end of 14.09.1939. Similar orders (first targets for the first two days of operation - 13 and 14 September - as well as directions of attacks) were also prepared for all other military units of both Fronts (Ukrainian and Belarussian). Also some official instructions were issued - for example: "our forces shouldn't get involved in direct combats for the fortificated regions of the enemy, but they should go round his flanks and attack his rears, leaving only weak cover in front of his positions." The depth of Soviet operations was marked out along the lines of the rivers Pisa, Narew, Vistula, San.

The "Day X" was set as 13.09.1939, although some sources say that the first date of the beginning of the attack was even planned on 11.09.1939 (later concentration was planned on 11.09.1939, while the attack was to be started during the night from 12 to 13 September).

But the attack was postponed. From the Headquarters of both Fronts orders were never sent to frontline units. It hapenned mainly due to the fact that Russians received first news about the beginning of the French Saar Offensive. And due to the fact that Soviets were not ready yet.

That's why Molotov invited Schulenburg on 10.09.1939, and told him that: "Russian army is not yet ready for actions. It needs 2 or 3 weeks (sic !) for full development of forces." That was something completely different than the guarantees and assurances of the same Molotov from the previous day!

The fact was that Soviet Union was indeed not yet prepared for the invasion - it had got very serious mobilizational and organizational problems. Another problem was that there were some rumours about the planned Polish-German armistice, and in such situation Russians couldn't attack. Only after the German dementi they could renew their preparations for the attack. It is not sure if the new date was established on 10.09.1939 / 11.09.1939 or later. The final date of the concentration and attack (concentration on 16.09.1939, attack during the night from 16.09.1939 to 17.09.1939) was established not later than during the night from 13 to 14 September, because yet on 14 September new orders were issued (they were similar or even exactly the same as previous orders - only dates were different). It could have been connected with the Abbeville Conferention (today it is know that Stalin had got his agents in Abbeville during the conferention, as well as in France in general - so he must have been informed about the decisions which were made there).

On 13.09.1939 Molotov once again invited Schulenburg in Moscow and told him that the Soviet army achieved combat readiness earlier than he expected: "(...) the Soviet action will be possible to be started earlier than it was expected during our previous discussion." Germans expected that Soviet would attack yet on 15.09.1939 - when they didn't do it, Germans were concerned once again. Soviets were postponing the attack so many times, that Germans couldn't be sure if they would finally attack or not. That's why they already prepared plans to capture the whole Poland, but on 15.09.1939 as the last act of desperation they categorically informed the Soviets (Ribbentrop's telegram to Moscow) that "Germans will not chase the Polish army up to the eastern border of Poland!"). Finally during the night from 16th to 17th of September, Soviet forces attacked. First units crossed the Polish border yet before 3:00 AM, but the general attack started around 5:00 AM.
 
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