SP6 - Deity Training
- Thread starter Sirp
- Start date
Stormrider
Civ Journeyman
All,
My apologies for disappearing on my turn. My wife suprised me on Thursday and flew us out of state. As I had no access to the PC / internet on the beach, I was unable to play...
Stormrider
My apologies for disappearing on my turn. My wife suprised me on Thursday and flew us out of state. As I had no access to the PC / internet on the beach, I was unable to play...
Stormrider
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 3,352
Hey Sirp, threadjack alert 
The two areas I have learned the most about here at CFC are corruption and flip probabilities. It would have taken me a long time to come to such detailed knowlege myself (esp. with my lack of consistent game time).
AFAIK the flip formula is... quote:
P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D
where:
P = probability that it will flip this turn
F = # foreigners, with resistors counting double
T = # working tiles under foreign control
Cc = 2 if foreign civ has more local culture than you, 1 otherwise
H = .5 for WLTKD, 2 for disorder, 1 otherwise
Cte = Total culture of the foreign civ
Cty = Total culture of your civ
G = # garrison units
D = factor based on relative distance to capitals
Now reorganizing this gives the required garrison as:
G = (F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty)
This comes from an old chat with Fraxis. It may be there have been tweeks since then but the basics are here.
The base value for D is 2000 and can be modified by a factor of 0.25 4.0 depending on relative distance to the capital (so possible values are from 500 8000 ).
This is probably too much information, but the point I want to make is about the location of the parenthasis in the # of garrison calculation. The culture modifier is multiplied before subtracting the garrison. Thus if the Japs own 1 square of your 21 (T=1) then you will need 7 garrison to be ensured of no flip (you state that Japan has 7x your culture). If the city is exactly equidistant from both capitals that works out to a 0.35% chance of a flip per turn with no garrison.
Hope I wasn't being out-of-line with this threadjack, but if my info is wrong I'd like to know!
The two areas I have learned the most about here at CFC are corruption and flip probabilities. It would have taken me a long time to come to such detailed knowlege myself (esp. with my lack of consistent game time).
AFAIK the flip formula is... quote:
P=[(F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty) - G]/D
where:
P = probability that it will flip this turn
F = # foreigners, with resistors counting double
T = # working tiles under foreign control
Cc = 2 if foreign civ has more local culture than you, 1 otherwise
H = .5 for WLTKD, 2 for disorder, 1 otherwise
Cte = Total culture of the foreign civ
Cty = Total culture of your civ
G = # garrison units
D = factor based on relative distance to capitals
Now reorganizing this gives the required garrison as:
G = (F+T)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty)
This comes from an old chat with Fraxis. It may be there have been tweeks since then but the basics are here.
The base value for D is 2000 and can be modified by a factor of 0.25 4.0 depending on relative distance to the capital (so possible values are from 500 8000 ).
This is probably too much information, but the point I want to make is about the location of the parenthasis in the # of garrison calculation. The culture modifier is multiplied before subtracting the garrison. Thus if the Japs own 1 square of your 21 (T=1) then you will need 7 garrison to be ensured of no flip (you state that Japan has 7x your culture). If the city is exactly equidistant from both capitals that works out to a 0.35% chance of a flip per turn with no garrison.
Hope I wasn't being out-of-line with this threadjack, but if my info is wrong I'd like to know!
Stormrider: Welcome back!
Gothmog: I'm really not sure if this is correct. I know they changed the flipping formula at some point because it was too easy for captured cities to flip and they wanted to make it guaranteeable that with a certain number of military units in a city you could stop it from flipping.
The only difference between the formula I gave and your one is that in mine the garrison is inside the parentheses, i.e. is
P=[(F+T-G)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty)]/D instead.
I'm really not sure, but I have NEVER had a city flip against me when I use this formula. (Well not since I learnt about the formula which was after an early patch).
If the formula is as you say, then we'll need 7 times as many units to guarantee no flip.
Ouch
-Sirp.
Gothmog: I'm really not sure if this is correct. I know they changed the flipping formula at some point because it was too easy for captured cities to flip and they wanted to make it guaranteeable that with a certain number of military units in a city you could stop it from flipping.
The only difference between the formula I gave and your one is that in mine the garrison is inside the parentheses, i.e. is
P=[(F+T-G)*Cc*H*(Cte/Cty)]/D instead.
I'm really not sure, but I have NEVER had a city flip against me when I use this formula. (Well not since I learnt about the formula which was after an early patch).
If the formula is as you say, then we'll need 7 times as many units to guarantee no flip.
Ouch
-Sirp.
Well 17 times as many units we don't got - although I did build a few. We actually have a ghost of a real army - 7 knights and 3 muskets. 
Was a fun 10 turns - I did a lot of lux-selling and resource-selling, and got us 2 techs (astronomy and chemistry). If Borealis likes, she can sell iron back to France for navigation and music theory on the preturn. (I could have had music theory in the earlier tech deal but passed, hoping to get Bismarck to fall behind in tech -- it didn't really work.) I also got New York and Philly to size 12 with worker joins.
Here's the (incredibly wordy) report.
Preturn: Rush the courthouse in Seattle, switch Detroit from granary to barracks, due in 3. Decide to hold off on one turn for saltpeter trade, with barracks finishing next turn in Philly.
IT Germany completes Sistine. Their mini archer SOD near San Fran moves on.
30BC(1). Philly barracks-musket. Seattle courthouse-worker. MM Philly to 15 spt; Detroit's barracks still finishes in 2. One of the workers near San Fran heads towards unclaimed saltpeter. Speaking of saltpeter, Hammy will offer 16gpt+12g. Osman wants some, too, but can't pay as much -he'll have to wait. Ditto Bismark, but he's really broke. Ditto Joanie in both respects. Toku, Hiawatha and Hammy have astronomy, but it costs much more than we could recoup. I pull the trigger with Babylon and our cash flow jumps to +113.
IT Babylon gets Copernicus. Much cascading to Leo's.
10BC(2) Washington musket-horse. Harbor is tempting, but we don't really need it yet - looks like Washington will be able to pull 20spt fully mined with food left over working an extra BG tile from either Atlanta or Chicago. Ditto library - we have at least 5 or so cities to get up to speed before we start worrying about self-research, looks like. Our second silk is online, but neither Joanie nor Bizzy can afford it yet. Japan looks like they could, if they would only build a dang harbor .... I'll see if I can find a free worker to get a road hookup.
10AD(3) Denver barracks-musket. I purchase the temples at Baltimore and Cincinnati (Salonika's borders just expanded). Boston churns out another worker. Saltpeter #2 is online. Otto must've gotten a source hooked up, but Bismark now has some spare gpt. I sell it for 12gpt/5g/WM. We're now up to +134 gpt.
IT Spices deal runs out. I pay ivory plus 104g for a renewal. Toku asks us to remove our workers from his territory -- I'm going to risk the annoyance to try to get a trade connection faster, although the town I'm targetting still isn't hooked up itself. All the other towns are too far away to get to easily, though. C'mon Toku you can build a few roads now can't you? Or a harbor - a harbor would be good, too. Wow, it's a busy IT on the diplo front. Hiawatha shows up wanting to renew our ivory deal for 2gpt. I'm gonna see if I can get more than that .... and indeed I can -- 14gpt/3g. And France completes Leo's. Cascade should be dead unless somebody shows up with a new tech next turn - should we try a pre-build for something or other?
30AD(4) Washington horse-horse. Chicago temple- market. Baltimore temple-courthouse. Cincy temple-market. New York musket-courthouse - deity corruption's nasty. Seattle worker-worker. Bizen's borders have expanded - San Fran gets its temple rushed.
50AD(5) San Fran temple-courthouse. Philly builds a musket. Switch Seattle to temple- due in 11 at 5spt if it doesn't get rushed. Houston switched to temple - won't rush yet with only one tile occupied, but soon. Saltpeter colony formed. Diplo check: Cascade is indeed finito; however, music theory has been discovered, and thus an all-new cascade should be starting shortly. I'm going to start a palace pre-build in Philly pending discussion; I suspect it's already too late to get anything, but I'm not sure. It can be switched to cathedral with no loss or library with one turn's loss if Borealis wants. Let's see what's up with the tech advances scene ... wooh cool. 4 civs have all of music theory, astronomy and chem; 1 has MT/astron and 1 has MT only. If I can afford Chem, I should be able to get all 3. Indeed, France will sell it for petty cash : ivory, incense, 12gpt and most of our gold (624). Everyone else wanted a lot more gpt, since I couldn't sell them lux. (Japan has finally moved a worker in the right direction for us to start selling them silks shortly, which might help that annoyed thing.) Otto will sell astronomy for a couple more gpt and the rest of our gold. Now .. to buy MT off Bismarck for Astronomy or not? There's no way on god's green earth we're going to get Bachs anyway unless everybody else decides to build it in a size 2 city - would it be useful to us to keep Bismarck 2 techs back of everybody else as long as possible? I'm gonna say yes. No trade then. (Just as a reference, to buy MT straight-up at last-civ prices would cost about 450g from France right now.)
IT Many Bach's builds begin.
70AD (6) Washington horse-horse. Not efficient at the moment, but will build one more before iron comes back for the upgrade. Hehe a Japanese worker near New Orleans is in our territory borrowing our irrigation.
90AD(7) Nothing much.
110AD(8) Oops, the temple rush in Cincinnatti didn't accomplish much - nothing, actually. Washington switched to musket builds. Some optimization here and there. I can trade with Japan now, but Toku can't offer very much for the silks. I'll wait a turn or two and see if he comes up with some more cash.
130AD(9) New York courthouse-musket. Two more civs start Bach's. I do a little counting of shield tiles around the five cities that have started Bach's so far (everybody but Ottomans) - the best by far is Konigsberg, which although one of the smallest, looks like it might be pulling 15 or so spt. (It started just last turn.) None of the others look like they're doing more than 12 or so. Philly is currently at 21 spt running a bit of a food deficit. (The deficit will be corrected as soon as the mining gets done.) I'll let the next player decide whether they want to go for a wonder (currently looking like Smith's will be real close), or change to cathedral. Upgrade all but one of our horses (left one of them too far from a barracks). Will renew iron deal with Joanie next turn. Toku can now offer full market value for silks - 8gpt/73g. That gets him back to polite.
IT Ottomans start Bach's in Istanbul, which doesn't look like a threat.
150AD (10) Atlanta market-musket. Buffalo courthouse-market (will need taxman next turn since it still lacks a temple). I have a spare incense. Babylon will offer full market price of 11gpt/2g for that, which gets us to a whopping +205gpt. Iron is available to sell again to France - they will give both music theory and navigation (which is the latest tech to make it around - just in the last 2 turns) if you're interested, Borealis, but they have no cash or gpt right now. Must've just spent it on navigation. I rush temple in Seattle - Ise's stolen one tile, but Echizen hasn't expanded yet. Philly's back to zero food - palace due in 23.
Good luck Borealis!
Renata
150 AD
Was a fun 10 turns - I did a lot of lux-selling and resource-selling, and got us 2 techs (astronomy and chemistry). If Borealis likes, she can sell iron back to France for navigation and music theory on the preturn. (I could have had music theory in the earlier tech deal but passed, hoping to get Bismarck to fall behind in tech -- it didn't really work.) I also got New York and Philly to size 12 with worker joins.
Here's the (incredibly wordy) report.
Preturn: Rush the courthouse in Seattle, switch Detroit from granary to barracks, due in 3. Decide to hold off on one turn for saltpeter trade, with barracks finishing next turn in Philly.
IT Germany completes Sistine. Their mini archer SOD near San Fran moves on.
30BC(1). Philly barracks-musket. Seattle courthouse-worker. MM Philly to 15 spt; Detroit's barracks still finishes in 2. One of the workers near San Fran heads towards unclaimed saltpeter. Speaking of saltpeter, Hammy will offer 16gpt+12g. Osman wants some, too, but can't pay as much -he'll have to wait. Ditto Bismark, but he's really broke. Ditto Joanie in both respects. Toku, Hiawatha and Hammy have astronomy, but it costs much more than we could recoup. I pull the trigger with Babylon and our cash flow jumps to +113.
IT Babylon gets Copernicus. Much cascading to Leo's.
10BC(2) Washington musket-horse. Harbor is tempting, but we don't really need it yet - looks like Washington will be able to pull 20spt fully mined with food left over working an extra BG tile from either Atlanta or Chicago. Ditto library - we have at least 5 or so cities to get up to speed before we start worrying about self-research, looks like. Our second silk is online, but neither Joanie nor Bizzy can afford it yet. Japan looks like they could, if they would only build a dang harbor .... I'll see if I can find a free worker to get a road hookup.
10AD(3) Denver barracks-musket. I purchase the temples at Baltimore and Cincinnati (Salonika's borders just expanded). Boston churns out another worker. Saltpeter #2 is online. Otto must've gotten a source hooked up, but Bismark now has some spare gpt. I sell it for 12gpt/5g/WM. We're now up to +134 gpt.
IT Spices deal runs out. I pay ivory plus 104g for a renewal. Toku asks us to remove our workers from his territory -- I'm going to risk the annoyance to try to get a trade connection faster, although the town I'm targetting still isn't hooked up itself. All the other towns are too far away to get to easily, though. C'mon Toku you can build a few roads now can't you? Or a harbor - a harbor would be good, too.
Wow, it's a busy IT on the diplo front. Hiawatha shows up wanting to renew our ivory deal for 2gpt. I'm gonna see if I can get more than that .... and indeed I can -- 14gpt/3g. And France completes Leo's. Cascade should be dead unless somebody shows up with a new tech next turn - should we try a pre-build for something or other?30AD(4) Washington horse-horse. Chicago temple- market. Baltimore temple-courthouse. Cincy temple-market. New York musket-courthouse - deity corruption's nasty. Seattle worker-worker. Bizen's borders have expanded - San Fran gets its temple rushed.
50AD(5) San Fran temple-courthouse. Philly builds a musket. Switch Seattle to temple- due in 11 at 5spt if it doesn't get rushed. Houston switched to temple - won't rush yet with only one tile occupied, but soon. Saltpeter colony formed. Diplo check: Cascade is indeed finito; however, music theory has been discovered, and thus an all-new cascade should be starting shortly. I'm going to start a palace pre-build in Philly pending discussion; I suspect it's already too late to get anything, but I'm not sure. It can be switched to cathedral with no loss or library with one turn's loss if Borealis wants. Let's see what's up with the tech advances scene ... wooh cool. 4 civs have all of music theory, astronomy and chem; 1 has MT/astron and 1 has MT only. If I can afford Chem, I should be able to get all 3. Indeed, France will sell it for petty cash
: ivory, incense, 12gpt and most of our gold (624). Everyone else wanted a lot more gpt, since I couldn't sell them lux. (Japan has finally moved a worker in the right direction for us to start selling them silks shortly, which might help that annoyed thing.) Otto will sell astronomy for a couple more gpt and the rest of our gold. Now .. to buy MT off Bismarck for Astronomy or not? There's no way on god's green earth we're going to get Bachs anyway unless everybody else decides to build it in a size 2 city - would it be useful to us to keep Bismarck 2 techs back of everybody else as long as possible? I'm gonna say yes. No trade then. (Just as a reference, to buy MT straight-up at last-civ prices would cost about 450g from France right now.)IT Many Bach's builds begin.
70AD (6) Washington horse-horse. Not efficient at the moment, but will build one more before iron comes back for the upgrade. Hehe a Japanese worker near New Orleans is in our territory borrowing our irrigation.
90AD(7) Nothing much.
110AD(8) Oops, the temple rush in Cincinnatti didn't accomplish much - nothing, actually. Washington switched to musket builds. Some optimization here and there. I can trade with Japan now, but Toku can't offer very much for the silks. I'll wait a turn or two and see if he comes up with some more cash.
130AD(9) New York courthouse-musket. Two more civs start Bach's. I do a little counting of shield tiles around the five cities that have started Bach's so far (everybody but Ottomans) - the best by far is Konigsberg, which although one of the smallest, looks like it might be pulling 15 or so spt. (It started just last turn.) None of the others look like they're doing more than 12 or so. Philly is currently at 21 spt running a bit of a food deficit. (The deficit will be corrected as soon as the mining gets done.) I'll let the next player decide whether they want to go for a wonder (currently looking like Smith's will be real close), or change to cathedral. Upgrade all but one of our horses (left one of them too far from a barracks). Will renew iron deal with Joanie next turn. Toku can now offer full market value for silks - 8gpt/73g. That gets him back to polite.
IT Ottomans start Bach's in Istanbul, which doesn't look like a threat.
150AD (10) Atlanta market-musket. Buffalo courthouse-market (will need taxman next turn since it still lacks a temple). I have a spare incense. Babylon will offer full market price of 11gpt/2g for that, which gets us to a whopping +205gpt. Iron is available to sell again to France - they will give both music theory and navigation (which is the latest tech to make it around - just in the last 2 turns) if you're interested, Borealis, but they have no cash or gpt right now. Must've just spent it on navigation. I rush temple in Seattle - Ise's stolen one tile, but Echizen hasn't expanded yet. Philly's back to zero food - palace due in 23.
Good luck Borealis!
Renata
150 AD
Remember that you Music Theory and Navigation are not required technologies. If you are not going to be building Bach's, and it's tough to get, you are better off not trading for it. Navigation might be useful in some maps, but I often wait to trade for it, especially on Pangaea (just saw your thread on spelling, Sirp)maps.
That was my thought, too -- we're not going to be first to 600 (360 for the AI -- eep!) shields even if the prebuild is left in, and we certainly don't need Magellan's on this map. We haven't even built a ship. Probably we're better off waiting a few turns to see if France comes up with anything better for our iron; I just wanted to throw the possibility out there in case someone else saw something in it that I didn't.
Renata
Probably we're better off waiting a few turns to see if France comes up with anything better for our iron; I just wanted to throw the possibility out there in case someone else saw something in it that I didn't.Renata
Being at work I can only give limited comments at this stage. Trying to keep Germany back in tech is worth not selling them a tech for perhaps 20 gold, Renata, but if they're offering us MT, take it! Among other things, MT would remove our dependence on iron, letting us sell it to the French much more happily.
Seven knights is pretty decent. With that kind of force, if someone attacks us, we'll probably just be able to hold them off long enough to sue for peace. Seven cavalry will be even better. Now that MT has been discovered, our saltpeter will be much more valuable.
About rushing temples...on the Japanese front in particular, the general reason to rush a temple would be to get it before the opposing Japanese city gets it. This way we take cultural control of tiles equidistant from the cities, and they have to build a more expensive cultural building to dislodge our control over the tiles. Rushing a temple *after* their borders have expanded is useful only if they have so much culture they are starting to take control of tiles nearer to us than them, and we want to get them back, or if we are also planning on rushing other cultural buildings, to fight them in a culture war. We would lose a culture war, so we're not even going to try.
Thus, rushing a temple *after* they've got a temple going is like deciding to start running instead of walking after they've crossed the finish line.
If there are brokerage opportunities available with getting optional techs from France, then get them for iron, otherwise don't. Borealis will have to be vigilant in checking with France though. We do not want someone else coming along and selling them iron first.
About going for a Wonder....I don't normally try to build any Wonder on Deity until ToE. I think it would be possible to get Smith's though, and is fairly likely to be worth it. The extra cash will help us immensely.
However, with the nice progress we're making, I'm growing partial to the idea of concentrating production on getting enough cavalry to to after the Ottomans.
Talking about that, have we seen ANY wars so far this game? The AI not fighting against each other is pretty unusual for a Deity game. The tech pace sure moves fast when there's no fighting going on!
It'd be cool if we could sign the Germans up to an alliance against the Ottomans. Maybe the Japanese too. This would stifle the risk of Japan being signed in by Osman against us, as well as putting LOTS of pressure on him. We'll have to see if it's possible though.
Still, Smith's would be nice; nice indeed. I'm very undecided at this point. One thing is clear though: do NOT neglect any economic development in favor of military.
-Sirp.
Seven knights is pretty decent. With that kind of force, if someone attacks us, we'll probably just be able to hold them off long enough to sue for peace. Seven cavalry will be even better. Now that MT has been discovered, our saltpeter will be much more valuable.
About rushing temples...on the Japanese front in particular, the general reason to rush a temple would be to get it before the opposing Japanese city gets it. This way we take cultural control of tiles equidistant from the cities, and they have to build a more expensive cultural building to dislodge our control over the tiles. Rushing a temple *after* their borders have expanded is useful only if they have so much culture they are starting to take control of tiles nearer to us than them, and we want to get them back, or if we are also planning on rushing other cultural buildings, to fight them in a culture war. We would lose a culture war, so we're not even going to try.
Thus, rushing a temple *after* they've got a temple going is like deciding to start running instead of walking after they've crossed the finish line.
If there are brokerage opportunities available with getting optional techs from France, then get them for iron, otherwise don't. Borealis will have to be vigilant in checking with France though. We do not want someone else coming along and selling them iron first.
About going for a Wonder....I don't normally try to build any Wonder on Deity until ToE. I think it would be possible to get Smith's though, and is fairly likely to be worth it. The extra cash will help us immensely.
However, with the nice progress we're making, I'm growing partial to the idea of concentrating production on getting enough cavalry to to after the Ottomans.
Talking about that, have we seen ANY wars so far this game? The AI not fighting against each other is pretty unusual for a Deity game. The tech pace sure moves fast when there's no fighting going on!
It'd be cool if we could sign the Germans up to an alliance against the Ottomans. Maybe the Japanese too. This would stifle the risk of Japan being signed in by Osman against us, as well as putting LOTS of pressure on him. We'll have to see if it's possible though.
Still, Smith's would be nice; nice indeed. I'm very undecided at this point. One thing is clear though: do NOT neglect any economic development in favor of military.
-Sirp.
Music theory, not military tradition. No one's discovered metallurgy yet. Sorry about the confusion.
Realized that after Cincinnati. The ones after that were more in the preventive mode, I think.
I think it would be worth it to investigate a few of the cities involved in a couple of turns once we have enough cash. It looks like Konigsberg should be first to Bach's, if they're actually working all the high-shield tiles they have available, but we may be able to beat the others. Babylon in particular is way over-irrigated. Think the AI will get economics in 23 turns? The current available techs are democracy, banking, physics and metallurgy.
Nary a one, to date. The AI are all trading like fiends and playing nice with their neighbors. We have about a dozen current lux/resource/gpt deals going ourselves. Bismarck didn't have any saltpeter last I saw - perhaps that'll prompt something to start.
Renata
ahhh I was trying to think of a tech other than military tradition, that had the initials MT, and I should have twigged, considering you were talking about music theory the whole time. Anyhow, silly me
Anyway, we can still gear up for when military tradition comes along. Selling saltpeter to the Germans should make them very happy with us. We'd like to have a luxury or resource deal with every civ on the planet if we can. That's the best way to keep relations good. And yeah, good move not trading the Germans for music theory. We don't want that tech.
I also forgot to mention before that we do NOT want any libraries or universities until after factories, for sure. We may never again self-research, or we may in the late industrial age or modern age sometime. But spending shields right now on libraries is not even close to being worth it. In Epic 26 for instance, I never researched after ancient times, although I did sneak libraries and unis in during the industrial age, it was never worthwhile to research with the huge tech penalty on Deity.
-Sirp.
Anyway, we can still gear up for when military tradition comes along. Selling saltpeter to the Germans should make them very happy with us. We'd like to have a luxury or resource deal with every civ on the planet if we can. That's the best way to keep relations good. And yeah, good move not trading the Germans for music theory. We don't want that tech.
I also forgot to mention before that we do NOT want any libraries or universities until after factories, for sure. We may never again self-research, or we may in the late industrial age or modern age sometime. But spending shields right now on libraries is not even close to being worth it. In Epic 26 for instance, I never researched after ancient times, although I did sneak libraries and unis in during the industrial age, it was never worthwhile to research with the huge tech penalty on Deity.
-Sirp.
As soon as I read that I realized that I didn't buy any embassies on my watch. I downloaded the save and it would take 407 gold to buy an embassy with everyone. I think it was 84 gold to get one with Bismarck. Seeing as how we won't go for Bach's though we shouldn't need them yet. If we go for Smith's though, we will need them (a couple probably anyways) to see if the cascade will beat us.
I wish the AI would spring for them more often. <shrug>
Ack! I wasn't establishing them either. We DO want them, just to improve relations, so yes, start establishing them asap. It's well worth the cash. Also, we could get some RoP agreements going with people we want to be friendly with. They come trampling all over our territory whenever they want anyhow, so we might as well get a RoP agreement out of it! If we're worried about the cost of embassies, we can establish them in stages instead of all at once. Getting France to Gracious would be great, for good deals.
-Sirp.
-Sirp.
Sirp,
I would like your thoughts on this.
As we all know the game sometimes hits you with the infamous 'disappearing resources'. I don't know about you, but trading away our only Iron makes me nervous. Granted it doesn't happen often and seems to happen even less in PTW vs. vanilla,
but still it's a risk. If we are trading away our only Iron and it vanishes, our reputation is toast, unless it reappeared on a roaded tile in our territory. With our rep toasted, you could stick a fork in us.........we're done.
I am sure you know all this so I would like to hear your thoughts as to why it's worth the risk.
Just to put my mind at ease if for no other reason.
TIA
Matt
I would like your thoughts on this.
As we all know the game sometimes hits you with the infamous 'disappearing resources'. I don't know about you, but trading away our only Iron makes me nervous. Granted it doesn't happen often and seems to happen even less in PTW vs. vanilla,
but still it's a risk. If we are trading away our only Iron and it vanishes, our reputation is toast, unless it reappeared on a roaded tile in our territory. With our rep toasted, you could stick a fork in us.........we're done.
I am sure you know all this so I would like to hear your thoughts as to why it's worth the risk.
Just to put my mind at ease if for no other reason.
TIA
Matt
Originally posted by Matt_G
Sirp,
I would like your thoughts on this.
As we all know the game sometimes hits you with the infamous 'disappearing resources'. I don't know about you, but trading away our only Iron makes me nervous. Granted it doesn't happen often and seems to happen even less in PTW vs. vanilla,
but still it's a risk. If we are trading away our only Iron and it vanishes, our reputation is toast, unless it reappeared on a roaded tile in our territory. With our rep toasted, you could stick a fork in us.........we're done.
I am sure you know all this so I would like to hear your thoughts as to why it's worth the risk.
Just to put my mind at ease if for no other reason.
Firstly, I think resources 'disappearing' in Civilization III is too poorly done to be a useful feature in the game.
If it was more sophisticated it'd be a great feature: either having some kind of 'counter' so you could see how many turns you have left, or something more sophisticated where usage depends upon the number of buildings you build with it.
But, we're playing the game here, not designing it, so...
- Resource disappearance is not likely. Possible, but on the balance of things, it's not likely.
- Even if we got our reputation toasted, I think we can still win. We'd just have to make up enough cash to buy things straight instead of from gpt payments. That wouldn't be *too* hard.
In Epic 26, I got my reputation toasted fairly early on, and it was only a minor annoyance.
So basically, it's worth the risk.
-Sirp.
150 AD (0): City check 
and the foreign advisor shows smiling faces. Embassy in Istanbul (which is cheap anyway) for 61 gold shows Bach's due in 30 turns there, at 12spt, size 9 and due to grow in another turn. However, Osman doesn't have his nearby hills and mountains mined 
which means that we should beat him. Without that, it'd still be close. Embassy in Berlin shows a market almost completed, maxed out at size 12 with 17spt. Bismarck is also as he has unmined hills and mountains, wasting the food he won't use until Sanitation. That leaves us with exactly 9 gold, so further embassies will have to wait until future turns.
Well, well, well... Osman and Bismarck lack Navigation but have Music Theory. We have nothing to trade for Navigation right now, but if we acquire it before those two do, we might be able to pick it up. Otherwise, there isn't much to see.
(IT): Japan and Babylon start Magellan's.
170 AD (1): Embassy in Babylon reveals size 12, 9spt, Bach's in 38 turns. Even if Hammurabi lays off the and mines his desert tiles, this city really isn't a good wonder-builder as it has no hills or mountains within its radius whatsoever. Embassy in Paris reveals... Bach's due in 18 turns, size 12, at 17spt! Expect a massive cascade later. Paris has some unimproved plains tiles that probably should be mined, and one mountain, but is otherwise not shield-heavy. It looks like France was building something else and swapped the build.
Buffalo gets an entertainer until its temple is finished, and I note that France, Japan, and Babylon have Banking.
190 AD (2): Embassy in Salamanca reveals two hills, 14spt, and size 12.
210 AD (3): I trade Iron + 3g to France for Banking and her WM, which will tell us how well-developed the non-capital cities are. Banking gets Navigation, WM, and 16g from the Iroquois. Banking to Germany gets Wines, Music Theory, WM, and 8g. Banking to Osman gets Furs, 31g, and WM. I know that I traded Banking to Osman at bottom barrel prices, but trading him Navigation for that would have meant an instant Banking-for-Navigation trade from Germany, and I couldn't make the deal with Germany with Navigation.
Oh.. I check and Economics would take 11 turns without a deficit, which probably means that the AI is researching it. I leave research off for now, but if we end up with 12 turns left on the palace build in Philadelphia and no Economics from the AI, we can get it ourselves.
230 AD (4): Bismarck and Osman both still lack Navigation. Otherwise, the world (including us) is at tech parity.
250 AD (5): Everyone but Hiawatha has Printing Press, but Osman doesn't have Navigation. I trade Osman Navigation for PP + his WM.
260 AD (6):
270 AD (7) (IT): The Iroquois, French, and Germans start Magellan's.
280 AD (8): St. Louis Courthouse->Market. The Ottomans start Magellan's. Houston gets a temporary entertainer until its temple is built.
Wow! France, Babylon, and the Ottomans all have Physics and Metallurgy. Look out for Sipahi.
290 AD (9) (IT): Babylon wants to sell me Physics for 1560g, but I decline as it's IBT. Interesting to know that it is affordable now.
300 AD (10): Miami Courthouse->Market. I check and no one new has Physics or Metallurgy, and I don't think it's urgent that we get either, so I leave them. We have a large war chest to buy Econ if it shows up within the next three turns, but if it doesn't, we can currently research it in 10 turns without a deficit, and I believe we should in this case as the AI appears to be going for Democracy, ToG, and MT first. France should build Bach's within the next leader's turn, killing the cascade and probably taking Magellan's with it shortly afterwards. Unless someone has a spare leader floating around, we should be able to grab Smith's in time.
Wild speculation time: During most of this game, we've been playing the peaceful 'please don't hurt me' brokers, and the AI seems to have a uniformly good opinion of us for it. If we can grab ToE in the Industrial Ages, I think we should be able to pull off a Space or Diplo win fairly easily. With this in mind, I didn't spend any of our 2417g treasury (at the end of my turn), in hopes of being able to buy Democracy when it shows up after we get Smith's. (After, and only after, Smith's as we might lose it if we go into anarchy first.) If we decide to do some
instead, we need Physics and MTrad ASAP, as well as a building priority swap to barracks & horsemen/knights to upgrade. I think it would be much easier and less time-consuming to go the builder's route, but the option is open to do either.
300 AD
and the foreign advisor shows smiling faces. Embassy in Istanbul (which is cheap anyway) for 61 gold shows Bach's due in 30 turns there, at 12spt, size 9 and due to grow in another turn. However, Osman doesn't have his nearby hills and mountains mined which means that we should beat him. Without that, it'd still be close. Embassy in Berlin shows a market almost completed, maxed out at size 12 with 17spt. Bismarck is also as he has unmined hills and mountains, wasting the food he won't use until Sanitation. That leaves us with exactly 9 gold, so further embassies will have to wait until future turns.Well, well, well... Osman and Bismarck lack Navigation but have Music Theory. We have nothing to trade for Navigation right now, but if we acquire it before those two do, we might be able to pick it up. Otherwise, there isn't much to see.
(IT): Japan and Babylon start Magellan's.
170 AD (1): Embassy in Babylon reveals size 12, 9spt, Bach's in 38 turns. Even if Hammurabi lays off the
and mines his desert tiles, this city really isn't a good wonder-builder as it has no hills or mountains within its radius whatsoever. Embassy in Paris reveals... Bach's due in 18 turns, size 12, at 17spt! Expect a massive cascade later. Paris has some unimproved plains tiles that probably should be mined, and one mountain, but is otherwise not shield-heavy. It looks like France was building something else and swapped the build. Buffalo gets an entertainer until its temple is finished, and I note that France, Japan, and Babylon have Banking.
190 AD (2): Embassy in Salamanca reveals two
hills, 14spt, and size 12. 210 AD (3): I trade Iron + 3g to France for Banking and her WM, which will tell us how well-developed the non-capital cities are. Banking gets Navigation, WM, and 16g from the Iroquois. Banking to Germany gets Wines, Music Theory, WM, and 8g. Banking to Osman gets Furs, 31g, and WM. I know that I traded Banking to Osman at bottom barrel prices, but trading him Navigation for that would have meant an instant Banking-for-Navigation trade from Germany, and I couldn't make the deal with Germany with Navigation.
Oh.. I check and Economics would take 11 turns without a deficit, which probably means that the AI is researching it. I leave research off for now, but if we end up with 12 turns left on the palace build in Philadelphia and no Economics from the AI, we can get it ourselves.
230 AD (4): Bismarck and Osman both still lack Navigation. Otherwise, the world (including us) is at tech parity.
250 AD (5): Everyone but Hiawatha has Printing Press, but Osman doesn't have Navigation. I trade Osman Navigation for PP + his WM.
260 AD (6):
270 AD (7) (IT): The Iroquois, French, and Germans start Magellan's.
280 AD (8): St. Louis Courthouse->Market. The Ottomans start Magellan's. Houston gets a temporary entertainer until its temple is built.
Wow! France, Babylon, and the Ottomans all have Physics and Metallurgy. Look out for Sipahi.
290 AD (9) (IT): Babylon wants to sell me Physics for 1560g, but I decline as it's IBT. Interesting to know that it is affordable now.
300 AD (10): Miami Courthouse->Market. I check and no one new has Physics or Metallurgy, and I don't think it's urgent that we get either, so I leave them. We have a large war chest to buy Econ if it shows up within the next three turns, but if it doesn't, we can currently research it in 10 turns without a deficit, and I believe we should in this case as the AI appears to be going for Democracy, ToG, and MT first. France should build Bach's within the next leader's turn, killing the cascade and probably taking Magellan's with it shortly afterwards. Unless someone has a spare leader floating around, we should be able to grab Smith's in time.
Wild speculation time: During most of this game, we've been playing the peaceful 'please don't hurt me' brokers, and the AI seems to have a uniformly good opinion of us for it. If we can grab ToE in the Industrial Ages, I think we should be able to pull off a Space or Diplo win fairly easily. With this in mind, I didn't spend any of our 2417g treasury (at the end of my turn), in hopes of being able to buy Democracy when it shows up after we get Smith's. (After, and only after, Smith's as we might lose it if we go into anarchy first.) If we decide to do some
instead, we need Physics and MTrad ASAP, as well as a building priority swap to barracks & horsemen/knights to upgrade. I think it would be much easier and less time-consuming to go the builder's route, but the option is open to do either. 300 AD
