Space Colonization modmod

[pepper2000]

Pepper 2000, your 9649 submission has caused my game to crash on the first loading screen when the modmod is installed. The game works fine without the modmod and on the 9648 commit. I've posted this on the main bug thread, but I guess this problem is specific to the modmod.

Yes, sorry about that, but it is hard to avoid. My goal is to get the rest of the modmod material integrated over the next couple weeks. I will update the modmod if there are any major difficulties in integration. Otherwise, I'm afraid you will have to stick with older SVNs to play this or otherwise find a way to jerry-rig it.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What is actual use for Void (not Intergalactic Void, that void terrain that already is in base mod),Orbit and Deep Space terrains?

If I remember correctly the Void was originally designed as no go areas for absolutely all units. The plan, at one stage, was to replace the Void terrain with another terrain with a special improvement. Thus a border could be built around the terrains you did not want units moving into eg a warrior walking off Earth and into space. When you got the tech that allowed you to go to orbit one of the Void plots would be changed to an orbit plot with your "orbital insertion point". Once you had this you could move units from your cities or space launch sites into that plot as a mission.

 

[vissar2g]

Would I still have all of the mod contents if I delete the \Civ4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Pepper2000 folder (and use the modmod folder instead)? In other words, is there anything in that folder that's not in the modmod folder?

 

[pepper2000]

Would I still have all of the mod contents if I delete the \Civ4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Pepper2000 folder (and use the modmod folder instead)? In other words, is there anything in that folder that's not in the modmod folder?

It should mostly work, though the integrated material has a couple of additions (e.g. some new Venus terrains and a Sun terrain). I think you might have a conflict with civics too. But hey, there's only one way to find out.

Still, I strongly recommend reverting to an older SVN (9600?) to play.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Base game will play with the latest Pepper additions. Can't say if the modmod will though.

 

[Faustmouse]

Just reached Lunar Exploration on Raxxo's map.

Looks really cool what you did there! Especially the way you handle satellites is very nice!

Do you have any plans on editing "old" space buildings like the Apollo Program, Hubble Telescope etc? It would be better if they fit the style.
And probably Sputnik should be a prereq for other satellites.

 

[raxo2222]

Just reached Lunar Exploration on Raxxo's map.

Looks really cool what you did there! Especially the way you handle satellites is very nice!

Do you have any plans on editing "old" space buildings like the Apollo Program, Hubble Telescope etc? It would be better if they fit the style.
And probably Sputnik should be a prereq for other satellites.

What speed/diffuculty are you playing?
I reached Ancient Era in 4455 BC. (Marathon/Deity/Gigantic)

 

[pepper2000]

Looks really cool what you did there! Especially the way you handle satellites is very nice!

Thanks; glad you like it. Stay tuned, because I have more plans in mind for low-Earth orbit space stations and using them as a launching point for further space exploration.

By the way, have you tested the Lunar Rover mission since the last update, and is it working? It seems to be working for me now, but I'd like confirmation from someone else.

Do you have any plans on editing "old" space buildings like the Apollo Program, Hubble Telescope etc? It would be better if they fit the style.

I would like to do something with those, but I'm not sure what. Frankly, I dislike the whole World Project system and would prefer if we just scrapped it, but I'm not going to mess with it until I have a plan. One of the major problems with the world projects is that they take a long time to build and there is no way to hurry them up, so they can become major barriers to development. However, I do plan converting some more of the early space wonders into rewards for space exploration, as well as adding a couple new ones.

And probably Sputnik should be a prereq for other satellites.

If I were to do something like that, we would probably want to have it be a national wonder instead of a great wonder, and then it wouldn't be Sputnik but rather something generic. I like the idea of establishing some basic infrastructure and technical know-how to proceed, but again I worry about making it too complicated or creating a situation where actual development is forced to lag significantly behind the tech tree.

 

[Faustmouse]

What rover mission? I was able to send it to a (random?) lunar plot. But beside driving around I could do nothing.

Some other things I noticed:

1) Lunar Rover requires Oil Products or biofuels. Why?^^
2) Com Sats have a Latitude req, which is really annoying as a lot of stuff depends on them. I'm fine with having your launch sites ristricted, but why the actual satellites?
3) Also sats should probably not require NASA or a Commercial Spaceport, once they are in orbit they just need a control center
4) I get lots of free specialists in my first lunar city (which you can found at Lunar Bases?). Is that intended? (Probably from wonders / education)
5) Lunar cities start with pop 3, I think 1 woud be more suitable?
6) Team Projects (Internet, SDI...) are buildable on the moon.
7) At -1k lunar bases are quite cheap, compared to my 60k income. Probably this should be increased? I visioned them as a high investment till you get He3
8) Culture in my lunar city spreads fast; from the free specialists. And it grows fast with realistic culture spread, maybe it shouldn't?
9) Buildings like Space Tours or Orbital Hotel have no Latitute requirements, which seems odd. If they have none, which do the satellites?
10) @Raxo: The moon actually doesn't have any CO2 Ice. Also not sure about rubies etc... I researched it a while ago and only found Iron, Tin and Aluminium + He3

These are only suggestions, feel free to ignore them! I'm really amazed with how awesome it turned out so fair

Oh and I play Noble / Snail.

 

[pepper2000]

What rover mission? I was able to send it to a (random?) lunar plot. But beside driving around I could do nothing.

That's the mission, at least so far. Eventually I want it to return a reward to earth like the Interplanetary Probe, but that's still under development.

1) Lunar Rover requires Oil Products or biofuels. Why?^^

Because that's how it was before and I never bothered to change it. Since you need NASA to build it, you already have Rocket Fuel, and that should be good enough.

2) Com Sats have a Latitude req, which is really annoying as a lot of stuff depends on them. I'm fine with having your launch sites ristricted, but why the actual satellites?

Again, it wasn't me who did that. A latitude requirement makes sense to actually launch the satellite, but even far North cities can watch satellite TV. Will change. The latitude requirements make sense in theory, but in practice are problematic because we don't know how those numbers will play out on a space map.

3) Also sats should probably not require NASA or a Commercial Spaceport, once they are in orbit they just need a control center

Makes sense.

4) I get lots of free specialists in my first lunar city (which you can found at Lunar Bases?). Is that intended? (Probably from wonders / education)

No, but I'm not sure how to prevent it. I'll check and see if there is anything I can do. I had earlier moved the Lunar Settler to Lunar Bases, mainly because I didn't like having the first Cislunar, Lunar, Martian, and Venus colonies all appearing so close to each other. But I am planning on putting the Lunar Settler back at Lunar Colonization where it belongs, as part of some other changes to how the moon is developed.

5) Lunar cities start with pop 3, I think 1 woud be more suitable?

Agreed, but I'm not sure how to fix that. There might be a way with the custom python scrips to set the size of the newly founded city to 1; I'll give it a try.

6) Team Projects (Internet, SDI...) are buildable on the moon.

Indeed they are, but the MapCategory tag doesn't apply to team projects. So I'm not sure how to prevent it.

7) At -1k lunar bases are quite cheap, compared to my 60k income. Probably this should be increased? I visioned them as a high investment till you get He3

I think the figure is all right for now. One thing to keep in mind is that these lunar cities increase the number of cities overall and therefore increase maintenance in all cities, so their actual cost is higher than it appears.

8) Culture in my lunar city spreads fast; from the free specialists. And it grows fast with realistic culture spread, maybe it shouldn't?

I wish there was a way to confine free specialists to Earth, though again, none that I know of.

9) Buildings like Space Tours or Orbital Hotel have no Latitute requirements, which seems odd. If they have none, which do the satellites?

Good question. As noted above, my main concern with the latitude requirements is that they make implicit assumptions on how the space map is shaped, which I would rather avoid for now. So I think I will keep it that way.

 

[raxo2222]

10) @Raxo: The moon actually doesn't have any CO2 Ice. Also not sure about rubies etc... I researched it a while ago and only found Iron, Tin and Aluminium + He3

These are only suggestions, feel free to ignore them! I'm really amazed with how awesome it turned out so fair

Oh and I play Noble / Snail.

Well I didn't knew what minerals I can place where, so I just took liberty and dropped various minerals here and there.

 

[Faustmouse]

That's the mission, at least so far. Eventually I want it to return a reward to earth like the Interplanetary Probe, but that's still under development.

Ah ok. Then it works fine! I'd probably restrict it to 1 movement, but thats fine. I have another idea for that, regarding lunar settlements.

Again, it wasn't me who did that. A latitude requirement makes sense to actually launch the satellite, but even far North cities can watch satellite TV. Will change. The latitude requirements make sense in theory, but in practice are problematic because we don't know how those numbers will play out on a space map.

Yeah exactly. Thanks for changing it! Btw is there any reason you get your lauch sites for free instead of having to build them manually?

No, but I'm not sure how to prevent it. I'll check and see if there is anything I can do. I had earlier moved the Lunar Settler to Lunar Bases, mainly because I didn't like having the first Cislunar, Lunar, Martian, and Venus colonies all appearing so close to each other. But I am planning on putting the Lunar Settler back at Lunar Colonization where it belongs, as part of some other changes to how the moon is developed.

Maybe TB knows?
My idea how to slow lunar settlement goes like this:
- You land rover, looking for a good spot
- A "Base Ship" is launched, can only be landed on your rover, places a Base improvment
- 1 or 2 Supply Ships land on the Improvment, can upgrade it to Outpost and Pre-Settlement
- A Settler can only settle a city on a Pre-Settlement (don't like the name)

An alternative could be the way SpaceX wants to do it, by establishing a Cargo Line to a destination first. Then cities can be build immeadiatly (IE Martian Settler requires Martian Cargo Line)
Having Martian / Lunar cities around the same time would make sense, but I can see why you don't want it for gameplay reasons. On the other hand, if one civ is going for Mars, another for Venus and a third for the Moon, it would also end up interesting later.

Agreed, but I'm not sure how to fix that. There might be a way with the custom python scrips to set the size of the newly founded city to 1; I'll give it a try.

Maybe because they are based on a later settler unit? It used to be 5 or 7 pops first but when I complained to Hydro, he changed it to 3 easily.

Indeed they are, but the MapCategory tag doesn't apply to team projects. So I'm not sure how to prevent it.

Ok, no big deal...

Good question. As noted above, my main concern with the latitude requirements is that they make implicit assumptions on how the space map is shaped, which I would rather avoid for now. So I think I will keep it that way.

Good, I prefer it that way actually. But I wonder how you get the Orbital Hotel up if you don't have a Spaceport (except for NASA)? It could require Commercial Spaceport, but that would restrict it to Latitude again and also the Techs were backwards then (as Commercial Spaceflight requires Space Tourism).

Well I didn't knew what minerals I can place where, so I just took liberty and dropped various minerals here and there.

Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem as civ tends to make weird maps Most important part is that some lunar cities need access to either Titanium, Iron or Aluminium (at least that was the state I left with)

 

[pepper2000]

Thanks for all the comments.

Ah ok. Then it works fine! I'd probably restrict it to 1 movement, but thats fine.

Good idea. I'll change it when I do my next SVN update.

Btw is there any reason you get your lauch sites for free instead of having to build them manually?

At one point I had a separate Launch Site national wonder. It gave the Effect - Launch Site "building" to all cities. The theory is that space missions could be designed and assembled anywhere in the world, and then transported to the launch site. However, I felt it was making the required building chain too long and so I consolidated the Launch Site and NASA buildings.

My idea how to slow lunar settlement goes like this:

I like that plan, and I am going to do something similar to that. Once you research Lunar Bases, you will want to send some units to the Moon to prepare the site, and when you discover Lunar Colonization, you can send a ship and build a city only where the site has been prepared. At some point (Lunar Manufacturing?) I think we will want a settler that can be built on the Moon, so cities after the first can be built much more easily.

Good, I prefer it that way actually. But I wonder how you get the Orbital Hotel up if you don't have a Spaceport (except for NASA)? It could require Commercial Spaceport, but that would restrict it to Latitude again and also the Techs were backwards then (as Commercial Spaceflight requires Space Tourism).

Also on my to-do list is to convert the Orbital Hotel and Space Station Tours into mission rewards. They will involve low-Earth orbit space stations somehow. I'm still working out the details. Once you research Space Stations, building up one or more of these space stations will be an important tasks. They will not be regular cities but rather map improvements. They will also be needed as launching points to settler farther out.

 

[Faustmouse]

At one point I had a separate Launch Site national wonder. It gave the Effect - Launch Site "building" to all cities. The theory is that space missions could be designed and assembled anywhere in the world, and then transported to the launch site. However, I felt it was making the required building chain too long and so I consolidated the Launch Site and NASA buildings.

Ok I can see the reasoning behind that.

I like that plan, and I am going to do something similar to that. Once you research Lunar Bases, you will want to send some units to the Moon to prepare the site, and when you discover Lunar Colonization, you can send a ship and build a city only where the site has been prepared. At some point (Lunar Manufacturing?) I think we will want a settler that can be built on the Moon, so cities after the first can be built much more easily.

Sounds good! Very curious how this will play out.

Also on my to-do list is to convert the Orbital Hotel and Space Station Tours into mission rewards. They will involve low-Earth orbit space stations somehow. I'm still working out the details. Once you research Space Stations, building up one or more of these space stations will be an important tasks. They will not be regular cities but rather map improvements. They will also be needed as launching points to settler farther out.

That would work for the Hotel I think but for the Tours not so much. Because the Tours sound like a regular thing while a Mission Reward is more like a "we launched a thing into orbit, here is the thing!", more like a one-off. Curious what your plan is with space stations. Not want to interfere with your plans, but a Space Station sounds like a National Wonder. At least until there are much cheaper ways to get into Orbit...

 

[Faustmouse]

Reached Lunar Colonization now. Nice Cislunar Cities! Also, I really like the "Complex" buildings that get rid of many factories and smelters / smiths!
And are the many new buildings yours as well? Fullerene Factory, Aerogel Factory etc? They are soooo cool! Highly immersive, and they give the much needed in that era. Nice!

New observations:
- Solar Power Satellite is still buildable the normal way, instead of only via reward mission
- Jet Propulsion Lab requires a Rocket Fuel Refinery instead of just Rocket Fuel... Why?
- Captured Asteroid would probably better as a NW, since you don't need one for every city
- Your Cislunar Buildings are quite cheap to rush. There is a modifier for it; I used it for my lunar stuff and the cost for rushing these is about right I'd say; a 5 turn lunar building costs about the same as a 5 turn building in a well developed earth city.
- Is there any interaction with captured asteroids and cislunar cities? I think these would benefit most from it; as fuel depot (water from asteroids) with fuel generated in orbit or just by reducing the amount of resources needed to be send from earth.

 

[pepper2000]

Glad you are enjoying it.

And are the many new buildings yours as well? Fullerene Factory, Aerogel Factory etc?

Thanks. Yes, I put those in. After all, it's the Nanotech Era (or just before), so there ought to be more nanotechnology there.

Solar Power Satellite is still buildable the normal way, instead of only via reward mission

That is intended, since going through the mission to get every sit a Solar Power Satellite can be a pain. But maybe I'll change it. There's a cislunar wonder that gives Solar Power Satellites for free.

Jet Propulsion Lab requires a Rocket Fuel Refinery instead of just Rocket Fuel... Why?

That's how it was before I started modding. I agree that it's unnecessary, and I will change it with the next SVN update.

Your Cislunar Buildings are quite cheap to rush. There is a modifier for it; I used it for my lunar stuff and the cost for rushing these is about right I'd say; a 5 turn lunar building costs about the same as a 5 turn building in a well developed earth city.

Thanks for catching that. I haven't really been paying much attention to those rush values since I generally try to avoid using that feature. How are cislunar production times looking in general; too long, too short, or just right? To me they seem a little fast.

Is there any interaction with captured asteroids and cislunar cities? I think these would benefit most from it; as fuel depot (water from asteroids) with fuel generated in orbit or just by reducing the amount of resources needed to be send from earth.

Not with the Captured Asteroid building for Earth cities. But you might have noticed that the Solar Sail Worker can fly to an Asteroid Surface, turn into a Captured Asteroid unit, and then that unit can place an Asteroid feature in Cislunar Space. If this is near a cislunar colony, that opens up the Cislunar Asteroid Mine building.

 

[Faustmouse]

That is intended, since going through the mission to get every sit a Solar Power Satellite can be a pain. But maybe I'll change it. There's a cislunar wonder that gives Solar Power Satellites for free.

Yeah, makes sense...Not sure if there is an easy way to do that, but is it possible to have the building be buildable at certain latitudes and only buildable by a unit if it doesn't meet the requirements? So it could be build if you have a spaceport near the equator, but if you are far north, you have to rely on your equatorial cities launching it for your. Probably not necessary when you drop the latitute requirement altogether though... Are those reward units tradable by chance? Could be a cool new feature to buy launches from other civs.

That's how it was before I started modding. I agree that it's unnecessary, and I will change it with the next SVN update.

I know that it wasn't you who designed it, I just thought you might have plans for it since you are in charge of the future eras right now

Thanks for catching that. I haven't really been paying much attention to those rush values since I generally try to avoid using that feature. How are cislunar production times looking in general; too long, too short, or just right? To me they seem a little fast.

The first buildings took 5 rounds (snail), while techs take around 5 turns as well (no research build). Seems ok. I chose the Solar Array first, then the others took 3 turns. Later buildings took 7-10 turns. Overall, I think that is quite reasonable so far (I'm just at the beginning of the Nano Era), but I wouldn't mind if they took twice as long.

Not with the Captured Asteroid building for Earth cities. But you might have noticed that the Solar Sail Worker can fly to an Asteroid Surface, turn into a Captured Asteroid unit, and then that unit can place an Asteroid feature in Cislunar Space. If this is near a cislunar colony, that opens up the Cislunar Asteroid Mine building.

I haven't built that Worker so far, good to know! Is there anything the Cislunar Worker can do? I built one and so far it is just sitting there^^

 

[pepper2000]

Is there anything the Cislunar Worker can do? I built one and so far it is just sitting there^^

If you have the Coilgun tech, it should be able to build an Orbital Trajectory. That's the main route in Cislunar space. At some point I may consolidate the work units, but there are some open questions in my mind about how routes should work (e.g. which zones can trade with which other zones).

 

[Faustmouse]

Thanks, now it works. It was hidden, because I turned on the "hide obsolete worker actions" option and for some reason, it is considered obsolete when it comes available. The sea tunnels have the same problem and I think this is fixed now.
Also, the Path that can connect cities on the moon has the same issue... Do you think it is worth adding a new type of road for that?
The Cislunar Trajectory can also not be build on Orbit Terrain since the Cislunar Worker can't access that. So the "Road" only works between the colonies, but not as a connection to earth, is that intented?

Also I observed a mid turn lag (10sec) after I started colonizing the Cislunar Space...

Then there is a small issue with pathing. I select a Planetary settler and tell it to go to mars. And it does. Then, the same turn, I select another one and tell it to go to the same location, it won't. If I tell it to go 2 steps away from it, there is no problem and then there is no problem when I go from that spot to the initival target plot... strange!

I noticed that your autobuildings have a cost. Normally, they were at -1 cost I think so they can't be build at all. I think this could be an issue if you sell them; they probably give you money and are rebuild next turn. If you can sell autobuildings... But even if it would probably not worth it do to this...

I've seen that your Venus Solar Array is more expensive than the Martian one, while giving the same output. It turns out to take the same amount of turns since the venus colony gives more I was wondering if you considered giving them different outputs in the future since solar panels around venus are more efficient than mars due to the closer distance to the sun.

The Lunar Mining Outpost is an improvment that should be buildable by the Construction Ship. Right now, it's not. Since I don't have SVN access now, might I ask you to fix that please?

Regarding the costing of your buildings:
- Aerogel Shilding only takes 1 turn when it comes available. Could use a 5-10 times increase in cost.
- Cislunar Refuel Station takes 1,5 times
- Asteroidmine costed 0,7 turns
- Mars Mine (3) turns, Geothermal thingy, the Geothermal Lab and the Water thingy (at Planetary Exctraction) all take 3 turns, maybe 2 after the Mine is built.


As always, really great mod. It adds so much to the game! I'm also highly pleased how well my lunar mod fits in it, thank you a lot!

 

[pepper2000]

The Cislunar Trajectory can also not be build on Orbit Terrain since the Cislunar Worker can't access that. So the "Road" only works between the colonies, but not as a connection to earth, is that intented?

Yes, it's intended. I want to avoid direct trade between Earth and other cities.

Also I observed a mid turn lag (10sec) after I started colonizing the Cislunar Space...

I've noticed it too, but don't know why.

Then there is a small issue with pathing. I select a Planetary settler and tell it to go to mars. And it does. Then, the same turn, I select another one and tell it to go to the same location, it won't. If I tell it to go 2 steps away from it, there is no problem and then there is no problem when I go from that spot to the initival target plot... strange!

Very curious. I haven't seen anything like that and don't readily have an explanation.

I noticed that your autobuildings have a cost. Normally, they were at -1 cost I think so they can't be build at all. I think this could be an issue if you sell them; they probably give you money and are rebuild next turn. If you can sell autobuildings... But even if it would probably not worth it do to this...

Good catch. I'll fix that for the next SVN update.

I've seen that your Venus Solar Array is more expensive than the Martian one, while giving the same output. It turns out to take the same amount of turns since the venus colony gives more I was wondering if you considered giving them different outputs in the future since solar panels around venus are more efficient than mars due to the closer distance to the sun.

Good observation. I basically designed the Mars and Venus lines separately, so there was no effort to make the costs comparable. Generally the Venus buildings should take longer to build because there are fewer of them.

The Lunar Mining Outpost is an improvment that should be buildable by the Construction Ship. Right now, it's not. Since I don't have SVN access now, might I ask you to fix that please?

I'll take a look.

Regarding the costing of your buildings:

I think the issue with the Cislunar buildings (and it applies to other zones too, especially Interstellar) is that the building costs don't ramp up very fast as you move through the tech tree. As a result, production times go way down as you build the production buildings but don't increase much as you get more advanced. I'll try tweaking the formula to try to keep build times more or less constant.