[Speculation] Italian States/Papal States/Venice

[steveg700]

Yeah, it's not uncommon here in America that the people of one area are contemptuous of another.

Thanks for the kind words about the scenario. Never played Crusader Kings. How does Family Management work?

 

[Bonci]

I thought of a system using a special type of great people as family members from your house a while ago, when I was contempling the idea of a greek diadochi wars scenario for civ4.
You could have them age and have sons and you could specialize them, for example you could decide to make your second son a knight, or a priest with different abilities.

I know maybe it's a bit too complex, but I would love a scenario with a very different gameplay for a change.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I always thought a dynasty system in Civ would be cool. My idea however was that instead of focusing on individuals, you focus on dynasties as a whole - so different dynasties accumulate different specialties (like a Medici-like dynasty focused on commerce, or a religious-like Umayyads or something). Although even then I suppose that might be a bit too complicated for Civ.

 

[CivOasis]

Never having visited Italy, I couldn't say for certain, but my understanding from reading and those who have is that the North/South divide is... dramatically stronger than in the US, to put it lightly.

 

[Haig]

The American civil war? More like the War of Northern agression!

By the way funny how my attitude has gone from "Italy? But we have Rome in the game!" into "Yeah having Italy makes sense" to finally " I wan't to play Italy!"

I personally wouldnt mind Garibaldi as a leader for an Italian civ, he's a symbol and there's been weird leaders before like Jeanne D'Arc for France in Civ III ...

 

[Bonci]

Probably it's true.

I myself live in a region where every valley speaks its own variation of the same dialect. It's normal in Italy.
Also I have serious difficulties to understand people from south Italy when they speak strict dialect. Still I can understand it much better than any other language (except for english, probably) and I have a lot of southern friends and we are not that different (and I'm not the classic italian, as I'm half german). It's mostly the old generation, and a lot of prejudice and "scapegoat mentality".

The most distinguishing factor is probably the presence of "mafia" that somehow in the south is still very strong, sadly.


About the dinasties, I think that it would be cool to have them in the game, but they would not work very well with the current social policy system, as at every given moment you do not know which form of government your civ is running...

 

[King William I]

To everyone that says no Italy because we have Rome. That's like saying No England because we have The Celts!

 

[ScottMcPwn]

To everyone that says no Italy because we have Rome. That's like saying No England because we have The Celts!

The celts were a stupid addition.

 

[CivOasis]

I wouldn't say its the same thing, but I don't think Rome rules out Italy if we can have the Byzantines in at the same time as the Greeks and Ottomans..

 

[steveg700]

Some folks really want the game to have hard-and-fast rule sabout what constitutes a civ. Some you can convince otherwise, some you can't.

 

[sukritact]

What about the mural crown as the symbol for Italy?

 

[Art Grin]

This could work well and would be distinct enough not to be confused with other civs symbols(it would look very different from England's or Sweden's crowns).

 

[steveg700]

Well, you're an expert in these matters, but it seems the stand-out detail there would be the brickwork, and i don't know if that would work on the small scale of the symbols.

 

[sukritact]

Well, you're an expert in these matters, but it seems the stand-out detail there would be the brickwork, and i don't know if that would work on the small scale of the symbols.

It should be alright IMO:

 

[Bonci]

That is actually a very good idea! There could also be the Star of Italy, but it's not very original...

 

[sukritact]

That is actually a very good idea! There could also be the Star of Italy, but it's not very original...

It's unique enough, but not as good looking I think...



The crown would be better for a Renaissance Italy too. (The star icon reminds me of Heineken for some reason)

 

[Bonci]

Maybe because the gear is similar to a top seen from above XD

Also the colors you chose help to create that effect


PS: firaxis should hire you to do their art!

 

[Il Corvo Bianco]

Actually, this whole business about the Ottomans and the Holy League brings to mind something I've been marinating on.

In a way, I kinda hope that Italy doesn't make it into BNW, because it would make for some rockin' DLC! Not just a civ, but an entire scenario based around Renaissance Italy with a focus on BNW's new trade and culture systems. Whaddya think?

The scenario is called "Most Serene Republic". You get to play one of Italy's major maritime republics: Venice, Genoa, Ragusa, or Florence. The Ottomans, Spain, and Holy Roman Empire would be AI civ's, with varying levels of established friendship or enmity at the beginning of the scenario, allowing certain republics to have an early edge on international trade routes.

With regards to city-states, most types are downplayed. Maritime, culture, and mercantile CS's are few or non-existent. Militaristic civ's, OTOH, should be around to provide vital manpower to help out the smaller republic with a limited production base, so Hungaria and Switzerland would be represented as military CS's, with their unique elite hussars and pikemen, resepctively. Not sure what to do with Rome and the Papal States; being understandably immune to DoW, they couldn't be playable, so it's either AI civ or CS.

The scenario starts in the Middle Ages, and finishes at the Industrial Era, perhaps with Napoleon showing up with beaucoup cannons to wrap things up with a bang.

Instead of great generals, the Italians have condottieri, drawing from history's long list of distinguished condottieri. Unlike most great persons, condottieri can be purchased with gold, and have a varied pool of abilities to from which to draw (a DIY master of tactics!).

Venice would probably have the strongest naval edge courtesy of its Arsenal. Florence, OTOH, would be the smallest and least militant, but with a big advantage in generating culture and great persons. Genoa would have a strong land army couresty of its crossbowmen and be better at acquiring condottieri. Ragusa could have a bonus trade route, or some other benefit relating to its Ottoman ties, or maybe a production benefit tied to forests.

Just throwing stuff out there. Feel free to toss some ideas into the mix.

The winner of the coveted "Most Serene Republic" title is the civ that either eliminates all rival republics, or completes the most objectives (in a manner similar to the Smokey Skies scenario). Objectives include amassing the most naval power, generating the most culture & tourism, and having the most lucrative trade routes.

The problem with such a scenario is that it is quite simplistic and quite wrong as well - many of the regional powers of Italy were not trading republics (the Duchies of Milan, Savoy, Tuscany, Ferrara, Mantua, Montferrat, the Pope and the Kingdom of Naples/Two Sicilies). As a matter of fact, the period of greater republic proliferation is the one best represented by the City States system - change the cities into full-blown states, as it happened between the 14th and the 16th century, and many republics (Pisa, Amalfi, Ancona) just drop out.

 

[steveg700]

It's unique enough, but not as good looking I think...



The crown would be better for a Renaissance Italy too. (The star icon reminds me of Heineken for some reason)

Without the brickwork, the mural crown can easily be mistaken for a regular crown at a glance. Might help to invert the colors, as the darker blue serves as negative space against the brighter yellow. But I suspect this was intentional design so I guess a yellow crown winds up looking like somebody else...?

I really love the star-on-cog design, sans laurels, as it evokes Italy distinctly. I'm partial to the red-green color scheme as well.

Another consideration is that the mural crown was in use by other powers as well, and it's more inidicative of a link to Rome than the identity of Italy.

 

[steveg700]

The problem with such a scenario is that it is quite simplistic and quite wrong as well.

In what way is simplicity a problem? A scenario isn't a full game, so they're inherently simplistic (a feature, not a flaw). And insomuch as Civilization isn't a painstaking historical recreations, but an excursion into alternate history, scenarios are often "wrong" in many areas as well.

many of the regional powers of Italy were not trading republics (the Duchies of Milan, Savoy, Tuscany, Ferrara, Mantua, Montferrat, the Pope and the Kingdom of Naples/Two Sicilies). As a matter of fact, the period of greater republic proliferation is the one best represented by the City States system - change the cities into full-blown states, as it happened between the 14th and the 16th century, and many republics (Pisa, Amalfi, Ancona) just drop out.

Well, I didn't mention any of those. They'd probably exist as city-states, if at all. I'm thinking it should really just be the powerhouse of Venice, Genoa, and Florence that are playable, with their "republic" consisting of about three cities, and having to expand from there.

Their status as city-states or "full-blown states" is pretty moot as far as a secnario goes. In the Fall of Rome scenario, you can play Rome or Persia, or you can play barbarians like the Vandals or Goths.