[Speculation] Italian States/Papal States/Venice

[steveg700]

Continuerò sperando! I'm really hopeful, since we've gone so long without seeing either Venice, Genoa, Florence, Milan (are there any more

It's probably not my place to ask (and I suppose this is the correct place for you to post it), but could we please keep Italy bashing out of this thread at this point? We've gone through all the tired and repeated arguments by this point. All anyone can do is repeat the same stuff over and over. Overlap with Rome, Covered by City-States, etc.

Well, hoping for Italy to make into BNW is a gamble. Maybe it'll pay off, maybe not. I don't pin all my hopes on it, as I'm overall pretty happy with everything included so far (I'd long ago given up hope on Assyria), and there are other civ's on my wish list as well. If I see an Italian city-state in a screenshot at this point, I'll flinch a little but I won't be crestfallen.

What do I feel a lot more confident about is that if we continue to promote italy, we can win more folks over (indeed, I've seen multiple "I've come around" posts) and we can get Italy added in somewhere.

Now, there are folks against the idea of Italy's inclusion, and that's fine. If they have a compelling argument to contribute to the discussion, that's great. It's another chance to present our case. If they don't, they undermine themselves. So Snoop drives by and hastily tosses in his negative contribution. The we get the "Rome overlap" bit that's been the object of refutation so many times. I don't see these kind of posts winning hearts and minds in the face of articulate and passionate resolve. There's a limited audience for negativity.

Great work on the leaderhead, btw!

 

[Menzies]

Continuerò sperando! I'm really hopeful, since we've gone so long without seeing either Venice, Genoa, Florence, Milan (are there any more?)

It's probably not my place to ask (and I suppose this is the correct place for you to post it), but could we please keep Italy bashing out of this thread at this point? We've gone through all the tired and repeated arguments by this point. All anyone can do is repeat the same stuff over and over. Overlap with Rome, Covered by City-States, etc.

Going a while without seeing the Italian City States means literally nothing at this point. If we had seen a huge influx of unaccounted for new City States that's one thing, but we haven't. The only two unaccounted for at this point as Sofia and Panama City, and Panama City would be accounted for with Indonesia.

I'd also point out that I don't recall such support for Italy before the expansion was announced, the Civilizations would have been confirmed within the company probably as far back as November or earlier, anything we say now is irrelevant for the expansion. The "come around" responses don't change the likelihood of anything.

 

[Snoopaloop]

The fact that this is one of the very few single civ speculation threads that was allowed by the mods helps increase the amount of Italy support that we see.

If the Phoenicia support thread wasn't closed, for example, it might be on 10+ pages now, and that small vocal group (me being one of them) might seem much larger. Instead being forced into the group speculation thread doesn't allow for such thorough speculation. This thread remaining open just gives a larger forum voice to a smaller group of people.

I was glad to see the Israel thread closed. Time for this one to go as well. This shouldn't be the only allowed single civ speculation thread on the forums.

 

[sukritact]

The fact that this is one of the very few single civ speculation threads that was allowed by the mods helps increase the amount of Italy support that we see.

If the Phoenicia support thread wasn't closed, for example, it might be on 10+ pages now, and that small vocal group (me being one of them) might seem much larger. Instead being forced into the group speculation thread doesn't allow for such thorough speculation. This thread remaining open just gives a larger forum voice to a smaller group of people.

I was glad to see the Israel thread closed. Time for this one to go as well. This shouldn't be the only allowed single civ speculation thread on the forums.

To be fair, we've generally kept on topic with the speculating, instead of spiraling into a historical discussion (the Majapahit thread is still open as well, although not updated.). I do hope we can keep speculating.

To get back on topic, any ideas for peace themes? (I have no knowledge of Italian music ). And do you think there's a possibility of Venetian Glass?

 

[steveg700]

Going a while without seeing the Italian City States means literally nothing at this point. If we had seen a huge influx of unaccounted for new City States that's one thing, but we haven't. The only two unaccounted for at this point as Sofia and Panama City, and Panama City would be accounted for with Indonesia.

I'd also point out that I don't recall such support for Italy before the expansion was announced, the Civilizations would have been confirmed within the company probably as far back as November or earlier, anything we say now is irrelevant for the expansion. The "come around" responses don't change the likelihood of anything.

These are reasonable reality checks. There are five or six (depending on what Ragusa is supposed to represent) city-states for Italy, so we can eventually feel comfortable inferring something by their continued absence. However, we just haven't had many opportunities to spot city-states yet.

We just gotta our eyes peeled and expectations tempered.

 

[sukritact]

Crazy random idea; Pavisier, When killed 5% chance you receive a Pavise Shield artifact in the nearest city.

sorry for the completely random post, just wanted to get it down.

 

[steveg700]

or perhaps battles with them are simply more likely to generate artifacts?

 

[Menzies]

These are reasonable reality checks. There are five or six (depending on what Ragusa is supposed to represent) city-states for Italy, so we can eventually feel comfortable inferring something by their continued absence. However, we just haven't had many opportunities to spot city-states yet.

We just gotta our eyes peeled and expectations tempered.

Ragusa is most certainly the Croatian Ragusa, not the Italian one, they did correct the entry too in a patch for vanilla.

The lack of seeing them means nothing without seeing those 5 odd new ones replacing them. Think about it this way, there is a bag of 15 marbles, 10 of which are blue, 5 of which are red. You wonder if the red have been replaced with Green. If after taking out 5 you've only seen 5 blue, can you infer that red has been replaced with Green? At this time it means absolutely nothing, all the new City States so far are accounted for, or in the case of Panama, pretty much accounted for. If we had, say, 2 or 3 unexplained City States and no sign of the Italian City states, then we can start talking about that.

 

[Bonci]

To get back on topic, any ideas for peace themes? (I have no knowledge of Italian music ). And do you think there's a possibility of Venetian Glass?

I really would like to hear "Va, pensiero" from Giuseppe Verdi in some form, but it could be too malinconic for a peace theme(?). It's very bound to the resurgence (in that period people were saying "Viva VERDI" which meant "Viva Vittorio Emanuele Re D'Italia" [Long life to Vittorio Emanuele King of Italy] to hide the true meaning from the austrians).
Another good option would be Vivaldi with his "Four Seasons" (also a perfect option for Venice since he was venetian).
In particular for a peace theme I would use the "Spring".

Venetian glass is a possibility, but as someone has pointed out it's not so straightforward as other suggestions.

 

[Art Grin]

Ragusa is most certainly the Croatian Ragusa, not the Italian one, they did correct the entry too in a patch for vanilla.

The lack of seeing them means nothing without seeing those 5 odd new ones replacing them. Think about it this way, there is a bag of 15 marbles, 10 of which are blue, 5 of which are red. You wonder if the red have been replaced with Green. If after taking out 5 you've only seen 5 blue, can you infer that red has been replaced with Green? At this time it means absolutely nothing, all the new City States so far are accounted for, or in the case of Panama, pretty much accounted for. If we had, say, 2 or 3 unexplained City States and no sign of the Italian City states, then we can start talking about that.

Panama can very easily replace Venice rather then Jakarta. As long as we have no confirmation on a Indonisian civ Panama can replace any of the existing maritime city-states.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think Venetian Glass is a high possibility. I will put it like this: What France is to wine, Venice is to glass.

 

[cybrxkhan]

The devs are not unwilling to add in a bunch of city states. See what they did when they added two new CS types in G&K. They shifted a lot of, and added a bunch of new ones to the existing city state types as well. As such, while the City State argument against Italy may or may not hold merit, I don't think arguing that the devs are too lazy to add in a few new CS is really plausible - also note that all the screenshots are staged. The devs may have purposely chosen the city states in to spur speculation or lack thereof.

 

[steveg700]

The lack of seeing them means nothing without seeing those 5 odd new ones replacing them. Think about it this way, there is a bag of 15 marbles, 10 of which are blue, 5 of which are red. You wonder if the red have been replaced with Green. If after taking out 5 you've only seen 5 blue, can you infer that red has been replaced with Green?

The distinction here is that in one scenario we are randomly drawing from a bag, and in another, we are being handed the marbles they wish for us to see. Given the latter, continuing to not see any red marbles doled out allows room for inference at some point, because eventually purely random absence becomes increasingly improbable. We just haven't reached that point yet.

 

[MeowthLover]

Bratislava is a new cultural city-state... could it be replacing Florence or Milan?

 

[cybrxkhan]

Bratislava is a new cultural city-state... could it be replacing Florence or Milan?

I think it's replacing Warsaw.

 

[Art Grin]

Bratislava is a new cultural city-state... could it be replacing Florence or Milan?

Probably replacing Warsaw.
So far only Panama is candidate for replacing Venice.

 

[Menzies]

Bratislava is a new cultural city-state... could it be replacing Florence or Milan?

We've lost Rio, Warsaw and Lisboa so far, and we've gained Bratislava, Panama City, Sofia and... one more, I can't remember. In any case, I'm pretty sure others pointed out that 3 of them cover the 3 already replaced, whilst Panama City could cover any maritime city state, but again, we'd need to see replacements for at least 2 or 3, not just one in potentia.

Also, whilst to some glass might scream Venice ask yourself two questions:

1. Would a 5-10 year old get Venice immediately from Glass? If not, then it's not that obvious.
2. How would it be implemented? It's a manufactured good, not a specific resource, it would have to be a UA.

As for steveg700, that's entirely the point. If they've already decided to not include Italy (which would have been back well before announcement), but have seen the speculation about it, it may be in their interests to cover up the Italian City states to build up some speculation, although I doubt they'd do this. On the other hand, if they've been replaced I doubt they'd think twice about it, and we'd just be getting a random smattering of City States. In the above not seeing Italian City states doesn't mean Italy.

Actually, I'll be a bit more clear here.

If they are still in and there is no Italian civ, there is a particular probability that there will be an Italian Civ seen.

If they have been replaced, and there is an Italian civ, there is an identical probability that we will see the replacements.

The only difference from the above is they are covering up the Italian City States as they want us to speculate, despite it not being included (as it would have been decided before this speculation began). They wouldn't hide the replacements.

Long story short, it is only inconclusive right now, and the only point it becomes even slightly indicative is when we see the the replacements, the lack of seeing Italian City states means nothing on it's own.

 

[sukritact]

Also, whilst to some glass might scream Venice ask yourself two questions:

1. Would a 5-10 year old get Venice immediately from Glass? If not, then it's not that obvious.
2. How would it be implemented? It's a manufactured good, not a specific resource, it would have to be a UA.

How would a 5 -10 year old get Maria I from a shadow wearing a turban (would they even know her)? They know the fandom, they know what we're capable of. We are much better versed in history than most and these reveals are mainly for our sake. As to point 2, there have been multiple ideas regarding it's implementation and it has been done by the community, like I've said in other threads (I feel like we're both saying the same things over and over across multiple threads here) .

Long story short, it is only inconclusive right now, and the only point it becomes even slightly indicative is when we see the the replacements, the lack of seeing Italian City states means nothing on it's own.

This is true, we're just grasping for straws where we can. Nothing wrong with a bit of hope and harmless speculation I suppose?

or perhaps battles with them are simply more likely to generate artifacts?

Sounds good! But then it'd be a double edged sword.

I really would like to hear "Va, pensiero" from Giuseppe Verdi in some form, but it could be too malinconic for a peace theme(?). It's very bound to the resurgence (in that period people were saying "Viva VERDI" which meant "Viva Vittorio Emanuele Re D'Italia" [Long life to Vittorio Emanuele King of Italy] to hide the true meaning from the austrians).
Another good option would be Vivaldi with his "Four Seasons" (also a perfect option for Venice since he was venetian).
In particular for a peace theme I would use the "Spring".

Vivaldi was Venitian!? I didn't know that. Be cool for Venice, I agree!

 

[Gucumatz]

We have seen Ur as well as a city state, I still don't think we will get Venice/Italy (too many CS replacements)

 

[Menzies]

How would a 5 -10 year old get Maria I from a shadow wearing a turban (would they even know her)? They know the fandom, they know what we're capable of. We are much better versed in history than most and these reveals are mainly for our sake.

I never said that a 5 year old would, they revealed those a day before and the idea was to spark discussion. They didn't say what the resource was because it would "give it away", there is a significant difference.