[Speculation] Italian States/Papal States/Venice

[steveg700]

Also, whilst to some glass might scream Venice ask yourself two questions:

1. Would a 5-10 year old get Venice immediately from Glass? If not, then it's not that obvious.
2. How would it be implemented? It's a manufactured good, not a specific resource, it would have to be a UA.

I think with "5-10 year old recognition" as a criterion, you've stepped away from reasonable reality checks. The fans they're worried about guessing are squarely in the 11+ age bracket. If they said glass, then yes, the non-crayon-using segment of Civ gamers would quickly guess Venice.

I suppose glass could be the output of a building as easily as anything. But the long and short of it is, I tend to think Italy has more interesting things it could doing than producing glass.

The only difference from the above is they are covering up the Italian City States as they want us to speculate, despite it not being included (as it would have been decided before this speculation began). They wouldn't hide the replacements.

Ah, I see. You posit that not showing us Italian city-states could be part of a plan to fuel excitement about a civ that they're not actually going to give us. In other words...

Spoiler :

...they're evil.

 

[Menzies]

I think with "5-10 year old recognition" as a criterion, you've stepped away from reasonable reality checks. The fans they're worried about guessing are in the 11+ age range. If they said glass, then yes, the non-crayon-using segment of Civ gamers would quickly guess Venice.

I suppose glass could be the output of a building as easily as anything. But the long and short of it is, I tend to think Italy has more interesting things it could doing than producing glass.


Oh, you think they're trying to fuel speculation about a civ that they're not actually going to give us. In other words...

Spoiler :

...they're evil.

The 5-10 year old thing is something I use in my work. As far as I'm concerned, if I can't explain what I'm doing to a 5-10 year old, I shouldn't attempt it to anyone else, because I clearly don't understand it well enough. In this case it's more about how they when marketing the game would see it. They know us well enough to know that oversights reveal things to us, and I doubt they're particularly bothered. Specifically mentioning it though suggests that they have clearly thought about it, stopped and though: "Nah, that's just giving it away to everyone". That means it's not just obvious to us, it's ridiculously obvious. It's not going to be something obscure to most people, it's going to be something pretty damn obvious to the general public. This worries me though as I fear it could end up being something cringe worthy like Kangeroos for Australia or Maple for Canada.

I also don't think they'd be doing that, I'm just pointing out that whilst there's logic to that, there's no logic for the reverse.

 

[Scaramanga]

If the devs cared about Venice's glass making abilities they would've made glass a mercantile luxury alongside porcelain and jewelry and made Mercantile instead.

 

[Emperor Giulio]

Unifying the Italian City-States would make for an excellent scenario, IMO.

 

[steveg700]

Unifying the Italian City-States would make for an excellent scenario, IMO.

Particularly if there was some mechanic to culture-flip cities to your side.

 

[steveg700]

Spoiler :

More blue marbles! Fan-faves Israel and Kongo are a no-go. Don't think Monaco ever achieved fan-fave status, but either way, it's out as well.

 

[spacedinosaur]

The 5-10 year old thing is something I use in my work. As far as I'm concerned, if I can't explain what I'm doing to a 5-10 year old, I shouldn't attempt it to anyone else, because I clearly don't understand it well enough. In this case it's more about how they when marketing the game would see it. They know us well enough to know that oversights reveal things to us, and I doubt they're particularly bothered. Specifically mentioning it though suggests that they have clearly thought about it, stopped and though: "Nah, that's just giving it away to everyone". That means it's not just obvious to us, it's ridiculously obvious. It's not going to be something obscure to most people, it's going to be something pretty damn obvious to the general public. This worries me though as I fear it could end up being something cringe worthy like Kangeroos for Australia or Maple for Canada.

I also don't think they'd be doing that, I'm just pointing out that whilst there's logic to that, there's no logic for the reverse.

While I understand the logic, you're also assuming that this 5-10 year old is culturally, geographically and historically astute. One really has to understand historical significance of global products in order to understand this point, and I don't think a typical 5-10 year old knows many other countries outside their own, unless they had personally been there or are of a certain ethnicity. The closest thing I can think of is coffee and Gran Colombia, glass for Venice or leather for Tuscony. I wouldn't expect an elementary-aged child to know any of those places, though.

 

[Menzies]

While I understand the logic, you're also assuming that this 5-10 year old is culturally, geographically and historically astute. One really has to understand historical significance of global products in order to understand this point, and I don't think a typical 5-10 year old knows many other countries outside their own, unless they had personally been there or are of a certain ethnicity. The closest thing I can think of is coffee and Gran Colombia, glass for Venice or leather for Tuscony. I wouldn't expect an elementary-aged child to know any of those places, though.

That's the entire point. 5-10 years old won't get that Venice was once known for glass or leather for Tuscany, that's the entire damn point. You know why? Because many other people won't get it as well. You know what as well, they aren't even that obvious, leather could have been an initial resource and nobody would have thought twice, and in truth, as produced goods go, if they were to add glass and make it relevant to Venice they would have done so as a mercantile city state in Gods & Kings.

The point is that they said it was "give it away", they don't mean give it away to the forum after 40 pages of arguments about who produced the best coffee, or who fed their coffee through small fury creatures before brewing it, but rather it would be that it would literally just be so obvious that it would just be given away. That's why I'd be inclined to think something silly like Maple for Canada or Kangaroos for Australia, although I'd much rather hear about Buffalo for Sioux or Seals for the Inuits.

 

[spacedinosaur]

That's the entire point. 5-10 years old won't get that Venice was once known for glass or leather for Tuscany, that's the entire damn point. You know why? Because many other people won't get it as well. You know what as well, they aren't even that obvious, leather could have been an initial resource and nobody would have thought twice, and in truth, as produced goods go, if they were to add glass and make it relevant to Venice they would have done so as a mercantile city state in Gods & Kings.

The point is that they said it was "give it away", they don't mean give it away to the forum after 40 pages of arguments about who produced the best coffee, or who fed their coffee through small fury creatures before brewing it, but rather it would be that it would literally just be so obvious that it would just be given away. That's why I'd be inclined to think something silly like Maple for Canada or Kangaroos for Australia, although I'd much rather hear about Buffalo for Sioux or Seals for the Inuits.

No need for the hostile language. How many kids do you know who play this game? I know none. That's MY point. This game is not targeted at that age range so your logic is invalid because they won't get it in the first place. They aren't intending to give clues to children under 10 (the game itself is rated for everyone 10+). The clues are intended for their target audience.

You think a 5-10 year old could get the clue about Maria I of Portugal? Half of the forum was convinced it was the Khmer, and these are people who allegedly know what they're talking about.

 

[sukritact]

Spoiler :

More blue marbles! Fan-faves Israel and Kongo are a no-go. Don't think Monaco ever achieved fan-fave status, but either way, it's out as well.

M'banza-Kongo looks like it'll replace either a Cultural or Religious city state from what I've just read. Here's to hoping Milan/Florence is no more! More straws to grasp at, more blue marbles to pick! (or maybe it'll replace Vatican city? Would Vatican City make sense on an Italian city list?)

@Menzies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murano_glass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_glass

Trust me when I say that if we're speaking of glass as a luxury, it's probably Venetian, there's little room for confusion. That said, I don't think Venetian glass is likely, it's simply possible.

 

[JFD]

The point is that they said it was "give it away", they don't mean give it away to the forum after 40 pages of arguments about who produced the best coffee, or who fed their coffee through small fury creatures before brewing it, but rather it would be that it would literally just be so obvious that it would just be given away. That's why I'd be inclined to think something silly like Maple for Canada or Kangaroos for Australia, although I'd much rather hear about Buffalo for Sioux or Seals for the Inuits.

But the thing is; surely no resource could universally allude to one civ in such a way. I would have never thought Buffalo=Sioux just the same as you don't think Glass=Venice. I think the absoluteness of Shirk's statement is being taken out of proportion.

 

[Gucumatz]

That's the entire point. 5-10 years old won't get that Venice was once known for glass or leather for Tuscany, that's the entire damn point. You know why? Because many other people won't get it as well. You know what as well, they aren't even that obvious, leather could have been an initial resource and nobody would have thought twice, and in truth, as produced goods go, if they were to add glass and make it relevant to Venice they would have done so as a mercantile city state in Gods & Kings.

The point is that they said it was "give it away", they don't mean give it away to the forum after 40 pages of arguments about who produced the best coffee, or who fed their coffee through small fury creatures before brewing it, but rather it would be that it would literally just be so obvious that it would just be given away. That's why I'd be inclined to think something silly like Maple for Canada or Kangaroos for Australia, although I'd much rather hear about Buffalo for Sioux or Seals for the Inuits.

Frankly that's a terrible argument. Most people with a little bit of knowledge in the history of Europe (aka this market...) would associate glass immediately with Venice. You aren't selling Babe Ruth's here...

 

[Bonci]

(or maybe it'll replace Vatican city? Would Vatican City make sense on an Italian city list?)

No, I think that in case it will remain a CS, just like for Wittenberg and Germany.

 

[Louis XXIV]

But the thing is; surely no resource could universally allude to one civ in such a way. I would have never thought Buffalo=Sioux just the same as you don't think Glass=Venice. I think the absoluteness of Shirk's statement is being taken out of proportion.

I maintain that it's a bit of guilty knowledge. They know it's associated with a Civ, so they assume that we would instantly conclude it was associated with a Civ. Really, unless the luxury references the Civ directly (Tyrian Purple, Navajo Blankets, Venetian Glass), the only one I could think of exclusively associated with a Civ would be Murex Shells (Phoenicia). That's exclusive.

Seals aren't exclusive. They were hunted by Americans, Canadians, and Russians as well.
Buffalo certainly aren't exclusive. The Blackfoot, the Crow, and the Cree are all equally associated with them as the Lakota or Sioux - not to mention America.
With both of them, I would think "oh, they added a new resource."
Now I certainly think some would have suggested that this means a new Civ was in, but I would have called them crazy. I then would have had to eat some Crow, of course (as opposed to the Crow, who would have eaten some Buffalo), but it would have been a contentious point of discussion, not a give away, without the hint.

 

[cakes]

there is a possibility they will rework rome to account for a little more of italian history like they reworked france

 

[sukritact]

Might I suggest we return to Italy, the debate seems to be steering away from simply the likelihood of just Venetian Glass to a debate on the nature of the resource... (apologies for being the nagging, but Snoopaloop is right is saying this is one of the few remaining civ speculation threads. I'd prefer we keep it that way)

Ultimately I don't there there's much likelihood of glass being in-game if Italy is in. It'd have to be a pure Venetian Civ for that.

there is a possibility they will rework rome to account for a little more of italian history like they reworked france

Rome and Italy are distinct entities, I'd rather they keep Rome and the Italian city states the way they are now than that.

Out of interest, would you people prefer Pavisiers, Condottiere or Bersaglieri for a UU?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Ultimately I don't there there's much likelihood of glass being in-game if Italy is in. It'd have to be a pure Venetian Civ for that.

I agree with that. However, I think it's worth using this discussion both for Italy as a whole and any specific Italian civilization (hence the thread title, which includes the possibility for Venice). Personally, when I found out that Brazil had a greater chance of producing Great Artists, I feared the worst for an Italian Civilization. Plus, the amount of City-States that would have to be replaced is huge. Venice struck me as the most likely out of all unlikely options.

Rome and Italy are distinct entities, I'd rather they keep Rome and the Italian city states the way they are now than that.

While I think this is true, I wouldn't mind something acknowledging Rome post Roman Empire in their UA. Glory of Rome always confused me as to what it was referring to. Even if they got some kind of tourism bonus or other bonus from archaeological sites within their territory.

Out of interest, would you people prefer Pavisiers, Condottiere or Bersaglieri for a UU?

I would prefer the UU to be Renaissance era, so not Bersaglieri. Italy's military successes after unification haven't been great. If the Musketeer is removed, I would prefer Condottiere. However, if the French Foreign Legion was removed, I'd prefer the Pavise Crossbow.

 

[wilbeard]

I agree with that. However, I think it's worth using this discussion both for Italy as a whole and any specific Italian civilization (hence the thread title, which includes the possibility for Venice). Personally, when I found out that Brazil had a greater chance of producing Great Artists, I feared the worst for an Italian Civilization. Plus, the amount of City-States that would have to be replaced is huge. Venice struck me as the most likely out of all unlikely options.

Only four would have to be replaced: Venice, Genoa, Florence and Milan. Not exactly a huge amount, considering all a city-state change constitutes is a change in the title.

Considering the information that "Portugal will be the main trade civ of the expansion", and that "there will be a lot of culture powerhouse civs" (both of which are paraphrased from Ed Beach's interviews), I feel that Italy's chances are higher than ever.

 

[sukritact]

I agree with that. However, I think it's worth using this discussion both for Italy as a whole and any specific Italian civilization (hence the thread title, which includes the possibility for Venice).

Oh, no I was simply expressing my thoughts on the matter. This is proper place to discuss any of the Italian states (I should know, I started it after all! )

 

[Art Grin]

Out of interest, would you people prefer Pavisiers, Condottiere or Bersaglieri for a UU?

This is a hard question, it really depends on what abilities each unit has. Probably the Pavisier, mainly because I like the crossbow a lot, and then it's a tough match between Condottiere or Bersaglieri. The Condottiere offers some interesting options for unique abilities, but I rarely use knights in Civ5. The Bersaglieri could be very interesting, especially if it's a no horses required cavalry replacement as suggested by Steveg700 as it would give an reason to train cavalry, and much of my warmongering takes place during the later eras.
I guess I'd go with:
1. Genoese Crossbowman
2. Bersaglieri

The Condottiere loses mainly because I'm rarely on the offensive prior to gunpowder.