Spell Damage only hits Offensive Strength

Calbrenar

Prince
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
331
I was using Ring of Flames to demolish a bunch of Archer's in a city. However it appears to me that it only hits their offensive STR. i.e. a 3/5 becomes a 1.2/5. So when i go to attack the city is still basically invulnerable since it looks like it's basing the calculations off the 5 and not taking into the, 4 Ring of Flames that half killed everything.

This seems like its a bug because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to function that way.
 
I was under the impression that the "1.2/5" would mean that it's at 1.2 strength out of 5. I'm not sure, though, but it really is confusing how the offense/defense method of display seems to overlap with the current/maximum strength display.
 
I don't think it actually shows a maximum strength at all. And you should only see this behavior on units with a different Offense and Defense strength in general. It bugged me once and I realized that it seems as if the defensive strength just doesn't do decimals, though in the case of 1.2/5 is should be showing 3 or 4 for defense, not 5, so that one throws me for a bit of a loop.
 
the base defense isn't shown as changed, i'm pretty sure kael knows about that
 
Related question, which is probably answered somewhere else, but which I haven't yet seen:

The Combat and Metamagic promotions obviously increase damage dealt by offensive spells (and, yes, increase strength of Summons for Combat, and in the case of Metamagic, reduce resistance). But do either of them have any effect on beneficial spells? Does each level of Metamagic reduce the per-turn chance of Valor wearing off? Do higher Combat levels increase the amount of damage fixed when a Dwarven adept casts Repair? Do Metamagic or Combat increase the effects of an Inspiration?

If not, should they?
 
I was under the impression that the "1.2/5" would mean that it's at 1.2 strength out of 5. I'm not sure, though, but it really is confusing how the offense/defense method of display seems to overlap with the current/maximum strength display.

Yeah, this is exactly the issue. Im trying to find the most meaningful way to present the information. I thought abotu just removing the max strength so that you would always see the current strength, but its often nice to see that a unit is at 4.5/5 rather than 4.5/9.

Im open to suggestions for better ways to display the info in the given space.

I think a "spell modifer" value would be a great thing. It would have to be applied per spell and wouldnt always be available in all spells. Just like modifying the resistance chances doesn't always help (if the spell cant be resisted).
 
Either one of xienwolf's proposals would be a huge improvement over the way it is now, imho. I was going to suggest the first of those before I read his post, but I think the second may be a little more elegant.
 
Don't think that' fit - units with strengths like 12.5/15 or whathaveyou already have theirs cut off. Is it possible to alter the colours? Displaying it in white when at full health and lightish grey when wounded might make it clearer what is being conveyed.
 
I think a "spell modifer" value would be a great thing. It would have to be applied per spell and wouldnt always be available in all spells. Just like modifying the resistance chances doesn't always help (if the spell cant be resisted).

Well... actually we already have a "spell modifier" value, surprisingly called "spell power" :-) (at least that's what combat promotions say). Why don't we use this value to modify more spells?

Right now there are 3 spell modifiers:
- "Spell extension" - mobility to summons.
- "Spell power" - increased damage of spells, empower summons
- "Metamagic promotion" - resistance chances.

These three modifiers could have different effects on different spells, while not all spells would be suitable for all modifiers. Several ideas about this topic:

- Vitalize, Bloom, Scorch, Blaze, Spring: Increasing affected tiles area with spell extension (at different rates at each spell). For instance an adept with spell extension 2 could cast a 3x3 area spring, and with spell extension 1 just a 3x3 cross spring.

- Spells that have X% chances to wear off per turn could have this X% reduced with spell extension.

- Hope, Inspiration, Wall of Stone... (city spells) could have their effects modified depending on spell power (increased defense for the Wall of Stone).

- Enchanted Blade, Flaming Arrows, Poisoned Blade... (unit buffs) could have also their effects modified depending on spell power (+10% combat bonus per speel power to enchanted blade).

This would enable also further differentiation of spells:
- A fireball could have power increased with "spell power" and mobility increased with "spell extension" while meteor shower could have just collateral damage increased with "spell power" and area of effect increased with "spell extension".
This would enable huge differentiation and strategy while building up mages and archmages.

I am not sure about how hard is to implement this. I am pretty sure that the effects on promotions (unit buffs) would be a bit tricky as it would require to implement sets of buffs promotions with different effects depending on spell power or spell extension.

Also, the effect of world spells could be increased for each metamagic mana (if possible).
 
Well... actually we already have a "spell modifier" value, surprisingly called "spell power" :-) (at least that's what combat promotions say). Why don't we use this value to modify more spells?

Right now there are 3 spell modifiers:
- "Spell extension" - mobility to summons.
- "Spell power" - increased damage of spells, empower summons
- "Metamagic promotion" - resistance chances.

These three modifiers could have different effects on different spells, while not all spells would be suitable for all modifiers. Several ideas about this topic:

- Vitalize, Bloom, Scorch, Blaze, Spring: Increasing affected tiles area with spell extension (at different rates at each spell). For instance an adept with spell extension 2 could cast a 3x3 area spring, and with spell extension 1 just a 3x3 cross spring.

- Spells that have X% chances to wear off per turn could have this X% reduced with spell extension.

- Hope, Inspiration, Wall of Stone... (city spells) could have their effects modified depending on spell power (increased defense for the Wall of Stone).

- Enchanted Blade, Flaming Arrows, Poisoned Blade... (unit buffs) could have also their effects modified depending on spell power (+10% combat bonus per speel power to enchanted blade).


I am not sure about how hard is to implement this. I am pretty sure that the effects on promotions (unit buffs) would be a bit tricky as it would require to implement sets of buffs promotions with different effects depending on spell power or spell extension.

Also, the effect of world spells could be increased for each metamagic mana (if possible).
Currently any promotion can alter the damage dealt by a spell, the chances to resist a spell, the changes enemies will resist a spell, and/or give a promotion to all summons. It just so happens that metamagic promotions both boost spell damage and reduce the chance of spell being resisted. Combat promotions boost spell damage and the chance to resist spells, and provide an empower promotion to summons. All extension promotions now do is grant mobility promotions to summons.


Frankly, I'm not sure how much I like extension increasing the range of teraforming spells. It is often better to have finer control over what terrain you want where.

What do you mean by spells with X% to wear off?

If you mean things like spells that cause immobility (Blinding Light, Entangle) having spell extension boost the number of turns immobile might be good.

If you mean spells that give a promotion to the caster only, I guess you could give the promotions a pyPerTurn function that checks the caster each turn when deciding when it will wear off, but that may not be worth it.

If you mean things like Charm then things get very difficult, if not impossible. It would probably work the same way as buff spells that give promotions to friendly units. How would you keep track of what unit granted the promotions to determine when it would wear off? I don't think you could, in which case you would have to instead make the spell give different promotions based on the casters promotions. This is really awkward, and overall not a good idea. (you could add pyPerTurn promotions that check units nearby to see is they are capable of casting the spell, then check them for promotions, then do some effect, but you couldn't be sure if the unit is the one that casted the spell. I don't think this is worth it either, at least for most spells.)


Likewise, it would be very difficult if not impossible to boost the effects of the buildings based on the caster's promotions, probably requiring several different buildings. Again, not really worth it.





You left off the obvious boost for spell extension: increasing the range of offensive spells. This is the one change I think is really needed. For instance, Maelstrom should be reduce to a range of 1, but have its range increased by 1 for each spell extension promotion (so with extension 1 and 2 it would have a range of 3). I don't think it would be hard to say that this would be applied only when the spell would already have some range (most likely 1). Of course, this should not be hard coded, but should depend on a tag in the promotions file; other promotions (I'm thinking mostly equipment, but adding an extension 3 promotion that requires Extension 2 and Hero could be good) should also be able to increase the range of spells, and this range increase should stack with the extension promotions. Rather than make a new tag, maybe you could use <iAirRangeChange>? This tag isn't used in FfH yet, and makes as much sense as anything for this purpose.
 
I like Xien's second suggestion. As far as things bleeding off the screen correct me if I'm wrong but if you mouse over it displays the full text anyway so you would see it bleeds off and if you need to see all of it you'd mouseover and check if you didn't you wouldn't. Realistically if its properly hitting offense and defense it wouldn't matter anyway because if the offense was at 30% of the total the defense should be as well so you don't really need to attack.

The key thing for me though is not what gets displayed but the fact that the defensive number for split units (heroic offense/deffense, archers etc) takes no damage and thus makes attack spells only useful against monostrength units.

I'm curious as to whether if you throw a str 8 against a 3/5 archer and the archer defends but takes 30% damage if the archer would show up as a 1.5/5 or would actually get weaker on defense. This could explain why its so hard to take cities with x/y defenders.
 
Well, even if they are a "monostrength unit" they still do have a seperate variable stored for the defensive strength. So if that number is not being properly reduced then such is the case for EVERY unit in the game. Not just those with seperate STR/DEF values.
 
Ah I wasn't aware of that. Either way I'd appreciate knowing this info as it would greatly affect my game play path. No point in going for AV Priests over early mages if they can't take cities lol.
 
Defensive strength gets hit by spells just fine. The display is messed up but the functionality isn't.
 
Then why does a str 8 with tons of promotions trying to hit a 1.1 have a .06% chance of success? Regardless of what promotions it has or the defense of the city 1.1 can only go so high. Now on the other hand if it is using the 5 that it displays the math works out.

Is it possible that the ALT auto calculate is basing its value of what is displayed and not the actual strength?
 
Post a screen shot with you alting over the combat. In all honestly, it sounds like you just are misinterpreting the data, and it's hard to help you if we can't see what that data is.

And hey, if it's an actual bug, it'll be more visible on a screenie than on self reporting.
 
Yeah, this is exactly the issue. Im trying to find the most meaningful way to present the information. I thought abotu just removing the max strength so that you would always see the current strength, but its often nice to see that a unit is at 4.5/5 rather than 4.5/9.

Im open to suggestions for better ways to display the info in the given space.

I think a "spell modifer" value would be a great thing. It would have to be applied per spell and wouldnt always be available in all spells. Just like modifying the resistance chances doesn't always help (if the spell cant be resisted).

How about you display the strengths in different colors depending on how much is it about.

White for 100%, gray for 50-100, orange for 20-50 and red for anything below.

You don't need to know exatly how much the maximum strength is, but it's good to see if the damage is light, severe or critical.
 
Post a screen shot with you alting over the combat. In all honestly, it sounds like you just are misinterpreting the data, and it's hard to help you if we can't see what that data is.

And hey, if it's an actual bug, it'll be more visible on a screenie than on self reporting.

I'll see if I can find the game I think it was MP though. I don't see how you can misinterpret casting ring of flames for 5 straight turns with 3 guys and seeing

.01/5 x 15 archers and doing alt + attack with a hero and seeing 9.4% chance of success.
 
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