Spell Feedback and Review(long)

[Zechnophobe]

Based on these listed Criteria, I've reviewed the entire spell tree. I've tried to keep this all relating directly to just the spells, assuming that if other ripples of balance occur because of this, they'd be handled seperately. I also have a slight Tangent in regards to the Amurites.


1) Many level 1 spells do not stack. That is to say, that having multiple adepts that can cast the level 1 spell, does not increase the effect. Enchant Weapon requires only one, maybe two, adepts in your entire
empire to have pretty much full coverage.

2) There aren't enough spells that summon units at the non tier 3 level. This is a major reason why the summoner trait feels weak and narrow.

3) There are too many Tier 3 spells that summon units. Since rarely you want more than one summon (For almost all given strategies exactly one summon will be the best) a lot of level 3 spell school promotions are redundant.
This often means that Archmages have little incentive to get the third promotion in spell schools, removing the flavor of a 'well studied' archmage. They tend to just get Combat promotions, which seems unfortunate.

4) Balancing direct damage spells by decreasing their per cast damage has diminishing returns, because you will always do at least 5% * (Combat promotion Level).

5) Partially because of "1)" above, armies primarily of arcane units just don't work. Also, there are no non-caster units in this category (Unlike Disciples which have pallie/druid/eidola).


Air

Maelstrom(Tier 2): Is the primary damage dealing spell in the game, even for Archmages. It has a good damage and a big range. because of "4)" I think we should make this have a range of 1.


Body

Fine as is, well rounded, stacks nicely and interestingly.

Chaos

Generally a weak tree. The first level spell is extremely weak (+1 first strike until end of turn) and has a problem with "1)" though less than some spells, the second level spell is fairly mediocre as well, and the tier 3 is a summon, something we're trying to avoid due to "3)"
Suggestions:

Dance of Blades: Replace with Mutation at Tier 1.

Tier 2: Summon Pit Beast (Still has the duration extension effect, tone down stats to fit a tier 2 summon)

Tier 3: ???

Death

Unique in that it has a 'summon' style spell at every level. For this I think we leave it as is.

Earth

Mediocre spells all around, but the mana type has a blanket effect so this is more acceptable. Stone Skin at least is the pre eminant resistence effect in the game. Not ethat the Wall of Stone spell is a good example of NOT "1)".
Spells of this type can be applied to many cities, but require many arcane units.

Enchantment

One of the big examples of "1)", which extends to the tier 2 flaming arrows spell. Until you get archmages, it is hard to justify having more than one enchanter.Archmage spell is great however.

Suggestion:

Enchant Blade can be changed to "Enchant Forge" which creates an enchanted forge in the city the adept is in. Units created in that city have +1 XP and the enchanted blade promotion.

Entropy

The only good thing about this branch is Rust, and I think it should stay right where it is. Enervate however is a very very bad spell. It does very little damage, and can even be resisted. Also
the debuff it gives is just... not worth much. Wither has the obvious downside of being fairly weak in strength, and effecting you the most. In generall, both of these spells seem like they do the most when your
units are getting slaughtered in combat. Not exactly something you should be planning for.

Suggestions

The Withered promotion should also give -10 or -20% strength, but be removed when the unit becomes fully healed. This makes it significantly more useful to use for attacking cities, since it gives you a non-priest way
to get rid of it, and lets you try to hit just a city with it so your attacking stack can attack better.

Let's Axe enervation. I'm sorry, the effect just doesn't do something we want. Instead, we add the Fear spell. Casting it gives all units in the stack the fear promotion. This is a potent army modifying spell suitable for an archmage.

Fire

Seems okay as is. One tree that feels it deserves a tier 3 summon.

Law

Law already has the advantage of a good mana based ability (-5% maintenance) so I don't mind it's tier 1 spell being rather.. useless. I think we can leave it alone.

Life

Ack. We have another Tier 1 spell that doesn't stack well, and the tier 2 and 3 are both extremely rarely useful. The mana based effect isn't particularly great either.

Suggestions:

Sanctify: ??? (Maybe it's okay?)

Destroy Undead: Change to Holy Blade spell. Grants promotion to stack that cuases it to have +40% strength against undead and demons (Like both of those promotions together). 20% chance to wear off each turn.

Resurrection: When cast, if your hero isn't dead, it adds the Immortal Promotion to the highest XP non arcane unit in the stack (Still destroys the life node).

Meta

Amurites start with this mana, but no mana types that get benefit from it's existence. They need mages for damage or resistable spells, or just to cast dispell... and since mages come from the same tech that would allow them to build
their own meta magic node, it seems like they just get gimped on mana selection until sorcery. I am going to suggest they start with mind mana instead, though read the section below on mind for more details there.

As for the spells, and effects of the promotion, I think I'd like to see a non Summon spell at Tier 3. Make Summon Djinn an Amurite only spell available with Channeling III and Arcane. This helps with "3)" above.

Mind

I think no one is going to argue that Domination is a perfect archmage level spell. However, I'd like to see the tier 1 and 2 spells swapped. Mainly due to "1)" and partially because I'd like to see the Amurites get mind
magic to start, and then have a valid reason to rush for KoE to get it. More specifically:

Inspiration: Changed to Tier 1, and provides a building that gives +2 Science. A civ can then produce adepts as costly Elder Councils (Unit upkeep) to help produce science. This makes a civ starting with Mind mana think of Knowledge of the Ether as a tech creating spell.

Charm: Changed to Tier 2, resistence +20 instead of +40.

Nature

Treetop defense isn't very good, and also has major "1)" issues, and just like Enchantment mana, is compounded by a tier 2 spell that also doesn't stack well. Now, I *like* poisoned blade for what it does, especially with the new poison system. So I think we can leave that alone. Vitalize is a heck of a cool spell too, so let's leave it.

Treetop Defense: I think we kick it to the curb and get something new. Instead of putting down the first idea that pops into my head, I'll leave it at that.

Shadow

Not a bad tree, but it suffers from "3)" pretty bad. I think Mistform is a cool summon, but it is yet another tier 3 summon. Suggestions:

Summon Mistform: Changed to a Council of Esus only spell (Requires CoE, Arcane, Channelling II, adjust stats to fit).

Veil: New Tier 3 Shadow spell. Adds the hidden promotion to all living units in this stack that haven't attacked this turn.

Spirit

First of all let me point out that the +5% bonus to GPP is almost non existent. GPP's don't use decimals, meaning that unless you have a base of 20 GPP, than +5% won't do anything. (It might also stack with another fraction amount to make a full 1, but that's also pretty rare).

As for the spells here, we don't have any summons, which is fine, but the first level spell definately suffers from "1)". Could Spirit 1 the promotion also give the unit the Spirit guide promotion? I am not suggesting that the spell "Courage" also give "Spirit guide"
but rather that a unit gets the "Spirit Guide" promotion when they gain the "Spirit 1" promotion.

Sun

Non stacking tier 1, summon tier 3... this fits most of the problems with the spell tree. What I really want is to make Blinding Light a Tier 3 spell, with a range of two. But this is going to maybe change how Ratha's work (Since they can cast blinding light, or at least, they can cast whatever the Tier 2 sun spell is. Still, I'll list this as I feel it should be in regards to spells)

Blinding Light: Made Tier 3, give it a range of 2, and change resist to +20 instead of +40.

Scorch: Changed to Tier 2 spell

Vision: New tier 1 spell. Adds the Keen Eyes promotion to a unit which gives it +1 vision, but has a 5% chance to wear off. Stacks with sentry. Since vision is something useful for more than just a single stack of units, this effect will end up 'stacking' with multiple adepts with the spell.


Water

Water has the best terraforming spell, so I think it can stay at tier 1, and be a 'water thing'. Also, I think we've all made a few adepts to go handle fires now and then, so I don't find this as a rare promotion to take.

However, I really don't like the tier 2 and 3 spells for water.

Water Walking: Changed to Tier 3. Water walking gives all living units in the stack the water walking promotion.

Water Elemental: Changed to Tier 2. Summons two Strength 2 water elementals with movement 2.

 

[MiKa523]

I heavily agree to these 2 points:

2) There aren't enough spells that summon units at the non tier 3 level. This is a major reason why the summoner trait feels weak and narrow.

3) There are too many Tier 3 spells that summon units. Since rarely you want more than one summon (For almost all given strategies exactly one summon will be the best) a lot of level 3 spell school promotions are redundant.
This often means that Archmages have little incentive to get the third promotion in spell schools, removing the flavor of a 'well studied' archmage. They tend to just get Combat promotions, which seems unfortunate.

..and I like your suggestions for Air, Chaos, Enchant, Entropy.
Regarding "Life" however, I think it's fine, mainly because the mana based effect is imho good (you can build this Aqua Wonder for even more health) and because the spells really suit a good Civ fighting the evil.
Although of course they aren't used as much as other, more common spells, they have their use and aren't really weak in those special situations.

 

[westamastaflash]

Amurites used to start with mind mana. Perhaps a lvl 1 meta spell...

 

[Err0l]

Little Suggestion for meta, perhaps...

Tier 1 - Magic Resistance, gives all units in the stack magic resistance promo, 30 % to wear off (perhaps bad because of 1), add a chance for your units to resist it so you needed more adepts?)
Tier 2 - <insert name here>, has 1 or 2 str, metamagic affinity +1, 300% against magic/disciple units, attacks mages/discs first, nice mage attacker just an idea tho
Tier 3 - Dispel Magic, it's vital for tower victory so let's put it here, maybe also a 50% chance to wear off magical promos in the surrounding tiles

just my 2 cents

 

[Grand Seeker]

In generall I would also like to swap some 'summoning' spells around.

And enervations could need a boost:
maybe it could remove 1-4 random promotions?

 

[uberfish]

Maelstrom is of course very powerful, but should not be touched unless Ring of Flames and Tsunami are nerfed (heavily.) Easily mass producable priests should always be weaker at inflicting spell damage than mages.

also I agree that there are too many tier 3 summons.

 

[Blackmantle]

Amurites can get quite nice milage out of Metamagic 1 unlike everyone else (which is more or less useless at Mage level but nice at start of the Game / KoE).
They have no need to go hawks (and hawks are one of the few really overpowered aspects of the game) for Scouting because of it (floating eyes also dwarf hawks quite considerably in that regard). Something you seem to have overlooked. (And something which allows them to go down the Arcane Tree singlemindedly if done right and right spheres like death are Picked from available nodes for fighting.)
Mind should go back to amurites and Body axed though. Fits them better flavorwise imo.


And i so disagree on the quality of Chaos (Mutation is one monster of a Spell in a Mod where single units excel. That view of it being bad must be a multiplayer impression. Its just not for existing heroes / world units. For everything else its really hefty.).
Putting it to tier 1 whould be borderline insane and make that sphere an auto-pick for me and perhaps others who realize how to utilize it in full.
One of 3 Warriors / Scouts mutaded will be on par with an Axemen / nearly on par with a Hunter and much more powerful after upgrade. Without costing considerably more. Sure Luck factors in. But building and scrapping warriors / scouts is so fast and easy, that its not really a problem. And if you get really lucky once that alone might nearly spell game-over for everyone else.
Loki with mutate early is mad enough.

Dance of Blades could be quite good if permanent or with just a 10% chance to wear of.
Duration only one Turn is the reason why its not so nice.

That said i think Mutation should be more Limited due to its outstanding power (best buff spell to get hugely powerful hero-like units to run around) to OO Priests and Tsunami moved elswhere.
There chaos Marauders should return. Always were one of the most interesting summons Tier 2 in the old System and whould very well fit the Nations that start with chaos-mana (Like Balspheraps and Kyleen which is indeed summoner. And thats also the reason why chaos whould be good with an Tier 2 as well as an Tier 3 Summon unlike Law which should be more about support imo.).
That is just the Summon Tier 2 needs. Also should need no coding since it has been implemented allready some time ago.
And makes Mutation a bit more rare and fitting (it really belongs to OO unlike Tsunami) to the Flavor and the Backstory.


Rather Law 3 should be changed back to unyielding order and Hosts moved somewhere else (i can't stress that one enough. One of the least good thing of the merger from summoning and sorcery a short while ago). For more than just the reason to make mages good. UO is so Redundant at Tier 3 Order as can be...


Agreed on Water. Those Changes whould be really nice. I think that is the best part of your suggestion and whould really fill a gap for a lot of civs.
With perhaps more emphasis on Affinity for Water Elementals (Strength 1 + Water Affinity 1 Cold damage per Node) than starting power.
Water Walking should have a limited duration (like 10-25% wear-off) then though to not obsolete Navy completely (Units that whould lose it whould be "landed" on the nearest patch of passable terrein then.) and enhance usefullness of having more than one Mage with Water 3. Another possibility for Water 3 whould be Kraken if Tsunami went OO Tier 3 and Mutation OO Tier 2.
Or Tsunami + Water Walking for the Mage on pick/ having the Promotion / beeing part of the promotion if Krakens stay OO Tier 3 (where they indeed do fit like mutation whould again.). Then Tsunamis power level as of now whould be ok. Unlike at cultists. (that imo whould be the best way forward.)

I guess you got Nature 1 wrong.
Its so not 1) because its one Adept for each Stack and needs to be recast each time they move (are you really just running around with 1 Stack in your whole empire?) maybe 2 or 3 if you want to split the Stack tactically before the fight. And its rather strong for Tier 1.
+25% Str for the whole Stack or +50% for units with the defensive promotion is not a small thing (including those adepts themselves for leveling in the field). Limited to Forests and Jungles (i belive). But that can be taken into consideration upon moving / making ones path.


As for Maelstorm i disagree on needing to limit its range (which is minor. Just move your Stack 1 step closer is not all that hard.) as opposed to cutting its maximum damage (not damage dealt!) to 25% or at max 30% (25% sounds better for Tier 2 though). Maelstorms effect in the game is to strong and even after such a change whould be a decent pick hands down.
Not its limitations in utility to small. (All Stack busters should have a lower max cap though. Depending on Tier and use-limitations like Tsunami 50% but limited to water + caost and a little bit lower caps for Tier 3)
If a spell is just to plain strong, don't make it more of a hassle to use but just cut its power allright.

Your suggestion for Enchantment whould be way to strong imo.
Enchanted Blade already is very powerful and Free XP is more than just a bit hefty. Whole Civics give +2 free Xp with a Drawback in an otherwise very interesting Category.
A Tier 1 spell with half that power in addition! to an already decent effect is far out of balance.
Tier 2 lacks a bit (other spheres do as well though here and there). My take whould be to exchange flaming arrows for something like "magic weapons" which whould offer +1 to all Units to not bias the sphere towards one Playstyle or the other. Might still be to strong though can't really judge that. Tier 3 is really strong now since Metamagic + Free Tier 3 Sphere for 4 Mana of one Type
Overall i think this sphere is very nice allready if you take into account the passive effect as well. Even though its very much 1) which might seem a bit annoying for some. But the passive effect (and +1 Happyness cumulative is really neat) neuters that a bit.


Strongly agree on Entropy beeing near useless and worth of an overhaul. Big time.
Must be clearly the single worst sphere in the Game as of now with a near negligable passive effect and massive (unlike death which has managable) diplomatic drawbacks.


Disagree on Mind. Yery good sphere and since Charm has been weakend it seems alright, if a bit outstanding (but thats because other spheres are lacking mostly.)
Its not so outstanding as to make everything else useless. So it seems fine and rather should be a good guideline for the other spheres.


On life i think the killing of the Nodes for resurecting the Civs hero should just go completely. Full Stop. (rather be limited to use on the spot of a life node so that its still needed to hold and Arch ready instead of moving him where your convinience leads him. So a small limit left in place.)
Its not really needed for Balance and whould improve the spells power remarkably. One "immortal" civ hero per civ seems fine. (especially if those Start on 0 XP.) Also bestowing the shrine of the Champion "for free" for owners of life-mana seems allright.
Elhoim should have a different Flag though or be limited to use Peace just once (Or not. That whould really beef up the Elhoim. Aren't they in need of a beef-up allright?). Whould in the blink of an eye make this sphere viable in Full. Especially Tier 3.
Sure it whould be strong. But that sounds perfectly fine. Other spheres are strong as well and they are all the better for it.
Also sounds that this change should be easy to do.

Also killing nodes and losing Heroes both sucks. Big time. Finding a way around both at once will just improve the fun about the game. Alot.
Getting to Tier 3 Life is not all that easy or early to be really unbalancing. Tier 3 Spells really should be powerful.
Is a Tier 3 Summon really that much weaker than a civ-hero (and a civ hero won't be twincasted or spellstaffed or improved by empower)? Think about it for a moment and you will get what i mean.

About Spirit: I think changing the passive effect of +GPP% as a whole should be changed to be rounded up (could sound a bit hefty but +1 Point all in all isn't that unbalancing.). And Trust maybe should be enhanced (even if allready very nice if you play diplo heavy. ).
All in all Spirit is allready quite useful though. And at times utterly necessary (if Archeron is near or you want fast culture + Happiness + a good heling rate. All of which are not that unimportant.)
Also courage (which is a very nice promotion if you look closely) + Regeneration really keeps a Stack rolling. Damaged or not. Add Medics to the mix and your units will Start fully or at least nearly healed each turn. Also really helps to get those HN Units on campaign up and running without near eternal breaks and vulnerability from healing.

All views isolated for single player. Multiplayer i dont care for. There it might be a different story.


Also don't forget that the game is not all about balance but all about flavor and fun.
So don't even try to convince Kael to change Metamagic away from the Amurites. Its their sphere. Full stop.
And they have some use for it which is uniquely flavorful to them as i pointed out earlier.
Illians without ice (to come, you can be sure ) or Ljos without Nature or Lanun without Water whouldn't work in the context of a finished FFH2.
A barebone skelleton of a game without any backgrond / frame is near worthless (those things where nice in the 70s and 80s when computer gaming was something experimental and exotic but not anymore today) in appeal after all, even for the most balance- and multiplayer oriented games out there.
If you try to just argue from a viewpoint of balance alone that will likely get you nowhere at least for FFH2 unmodded (especially given Kaels leaning to fun, flavor and replayability.). So better search for a place for Mind at the Amurites elsewhere.
All other points seem debatable.

Such a modification to more or less balance the spells for multiplayer (mostly changing amurites ment with that ) whould probably be best for multiplayer. Where it might! be needed. Given. But its not that hard to do i belive (spells are one of the things modmoders change quite often if you look at the modmods subforum.)
So better set up that thread there if that should be your aim. And you are sure to not only get agreement on the matter there. But help to pull it of as well. If the multiplayer community really likes maybe soon everyone will do so.


Still thanks for pointing it out and taking your time to work out the main "problems" which i whould agree on in part (the cast once and forget-mechanics i like alot though. Enforces less micro without use exept balance.). Even though i disagree on some key points. (And since im only a single voice just like you are and Kael + Team are the final arbiters on all things FFH you might well get your way with some of those. )


Things not mentioned i largely agree with the op (or don't think the ideas or bad per se. Like those for Shadow.)

 

[Kael]

Great feedback! Here are my thoughts, each spell is followed by a 1-10 number on how happy I am with it:

Air
Mana effect- Boosts affinity
1. Fair Winds (4)- effect is to limited
2. Maelstrom (6)- love the spell but it is a balance issue
3. Summon Air Elemental (8)- I like the 4 elemental speheres havign their tier 3 summons, but okay with removing the rest

Body
Mana Effect- Boosts heal rate in borders
1. Haste (9)- about perfect
2. Regeneration (5)- its okay, nothing great
3. Graft Flesh (7)- fun spell, not sure about game balance but i will probably never remove it since its kinda a hallmark of our weird design

Chaos
Mana Effect- Chance to cause mutation
1. Dance of Blades (2)- weak, definitly need a boost here
2. Mutation (8)- Mutation is to powerful to be an adept spell, its about the perfect definition of a tier2 spell
3. Summon Pit Beast (6)- love the spell but your right that we could afford to have the slot be a non-summon (if we could come up with a cool chaos 3 spell i would move this to an entropy 2 spell)

Death
Mana Effect- Boosts affinity
1. Raise Skeleton (9)- just about perfect
2. Summon Spectre (8)- very appropriate
3. Lichdom and Summon Wraith (9)- between the 2 this sphere works out nicely

Earth
Mana Effect- Increases mineral discovery chances
1. Wall of Stone (4)- decent but not very interesting
2. Stoneskin (4)- same as above, kinda dull
3. Summon Earth Elemental (8)- good elemental summon

Enchantment- This sphere is about perfect for what it is. Im okay with some spehres being good for a single caster getting experienced in it and this should be the model for that. Though as you mention it shouldnt exist in all spheres.
Mana effect- +1 happy
1. Enchanted Blade (10)
2. Flaming Arrows (8)
3. Spellstaff (8)

Entropy- Very weak sphere, something needs to be done. Maybe rust needs to move to rank 1, Summon Pit Beast to rank 2, and a very improved enervation/wither combo at tier 3?
Mana Effect- Decreases enemy heal rate in your lands
1. Wither (2)
2. Rust (6)
3. Enervation (1)

Fire- About perfect, i wouldnt want to touch it
Mana Effect- Boosts Affinity
1. Blaze (6)
2. Fireball (10)
3. Summon Fire Elemental (8)

Law- Boring sphere. Maybe Einherjar goes down to rnak 2, valor goes to rank 3 (and never expires) and we spice up the rank1 a bit?
Mana Effect- reduces maintenance
1. Loyalty (4)- such a limited effect
2. Valor (7)- good spell but dull
3. Summon Hosts of the Einherjar (6)- Id like to get this to be a rank 2 spell

Life
Mana Effect- increases health
1. Sanctify (4)- boring spell
2. Destroy Undead (3)- Way to limited effect, this may be a good place for a level 2 summon?
3. Ressurection (4)- Maybe allowing unlimited ressurections isn't such a bad idea?

Metamagic- I like this sphere
Mana Effect- none, instead the mana effect (reduces enemy resistances, increases spell damage) is applied to units that know the sphere, not just to those in the owners empire
1. Floating Eye
2. Dispel Magic
3. Summon Djinn

Mind- A decent sphere but I like your idea to switch charm person and inspiration
Mana Effect- increases research rate
1. Charm Person (4)- I like the spell but it is overpowered, it will be better as a rank 2 spell
2. Inspiration (6)- Decent but boring, it will do much better as a rank 1 spell
3. Domination (8)- A good spell

Nature- I think this spell is pretty good and I think treetop defense is a lot better now that it instantly fortifies the stack
Mana Effect- None (boosts a lot of non-summon creatures)
1. Treetop Defense (6)
2. Poisoned Blade (7)
3. Vitalize (9)

Shadow
Mana Effect- Boosts affinity
1. Blur (4)- A pretty weak spell
2. Shadowwalk (6)- Maybe boost this into a rank 3 spell?
3. Summon Mistform (6)- A good spell, but it would be a good candidate for a level 2 summon.

Spirit
Mana Effect- increases GPP growth
1. Courage (4)- limited effect
2. Hope (6)- okay, but a bit boring
3. Trust (7)- I like this spell, but it may need something to improve it.

Sun
Mana Effect- Boosts Affinity
1. Scorch (6)- decent spell
2. Blinding Light (7)- I could move this to rank 3, increase the range and reduce the resistance chance. A "Flash" spell could be created to keep the current (or a bit weaker) form for the ratha and such to use.
3. Summon Aurelis (7)- This could be weakened and moved to rank 2

Water
Mana Effect- Boosts Affinity
1. Spring (10)
2. Water Walking (8)- this cant ever effect the entire stack because you would make ships obsolete and remove the strategic effect of water from the game
3. Summon Water Elemental (4)- I like the spell, but it is to weak

 

[MaxAstro]

Chaos

Generally a weak tree. The first level spell is extremely weak (+1 first strike until end of turn) and has a problem with "1)" though less than some spells, the second level spell is fairly mediocre as well, and the tier 3 is a summon, something we're trying to avoid due to "3)"
Suggestions:

Dance of Blades: Replace with Mutation at Tier 1.

Tier 2: Summon Pit Beast (Still has the duration extension effect, tone down stats to fit a tier 2 summon)

Tier 3: ???

You obviously haven't played the Balseraphs much. Mutation is an INSANELY powerful spell, so much so that Loki starting with it almost breaks the Balseraphs. It should definitely not be a level 1 spell under any circumstances.

Entropy

The only good thing about this branch is Rust, and I think it should stay right where it is. Enervate however is a very very bad spell. It does very little damage, and can even be resisted. Also
the debuff it gives is just... not worth much. Wither has the obvious downside of being fairly weak in strength, and effecting you the most. In generall, both of these spells seem like they do the most when your
units are getting slaughtered in combat. Not exactly something you should be planning for.

Suggestions

The Withered promotion should also give -10 or -20% strength, but be removed when the unit becomes fully healed. This makes it significantly more useful to use for attacking cities, since it gives you a non-priest way
to get rid of it, and lets you try to hit just a city with it so your attacking stack can attack better.

Let's Axe enervation. I'm sorry, the effect just doesn't do something we want. Instead, we add the Fear spell. Casting it gives all units in the stack the fear promotion. This is a potent army modifying spell suitable for an archmage.

Most of this I agree with to some extent; the Entropy tree really needs buffing. Honestly, I think Summon Imp should be brought back as a permanent summon, as long as there was a way to prevent summoned Imp from upgrading into Mages.

Life

Ack. We have another Tier 1 spell that doesn't stack well, and the tier 2 and 3 are both extremely rarely useful. The mana based effect isn't particularly great either.

Suggestions:

Sanctify: ??? (Maybe it's okay?)

Destroy Undead: Change to Holy Blade spell. Grants promotion to stack that cuases it to have +40% strength against undead and demons (Like both of those promotions together). 20% chance to wear off each turn.

Resurrection: When cast, if your hero isn't dead, it adds the Immortal Promotion to the highest XP non arcane unit in the stack (Still destroys the life node).

Sanctify is more than okay, and trust me, if you allow Hell terrain to really get going, you will need more than 1 adept with Santify.

Destroy Undead is a very thematic spell and in my opinion should not be changed; some spheres are meant to have a narrow use.

I think Life 3 should have 2 spells, like Death 3: Resurrection, and another more generally useful spell. Not sure what, though.

Meta

Amurites start with this mana, but no mana types that get benefit from it's existence. They need mages for damage or resistable spells, or just to cast dispell... and since mages come from the same tech that would allow them to build
their own meta magic node, it seems like they just get gimped on mana selection until sorcery. I am going to suggest they start with mind mana instead, though read the section below on mind for more details there.

As for the spells, and effects of the promotion, I think I'd like to see a non Summon spell at Tier 3. Make Summon Djinn an Amurite only spell available with Channeling III and Arcane. This helps with "3)" above.

The advantage of the Amurites is that they get Floating Eye before Sorcery, which is really quite an impressive advantage scouting-wise. Floating Eyes can easily discover half the map on their own when combined with Spell Extention and a few open borders agreements. Also, Djinn is a very unique and thematic summon, and should be left as-is, IMO; it doesn't work well as an Amurite-only spell.

Mind

I think no one is going to argue that Domination is a perfect archmage level spell. However, I'd like to see the tier 1 and 2 spells swapped. Mainly due to "1)" and partially because I'd like to see the Amurites get mind
magic to start, and then have a valid reason to rush for KoE to get it. More specifically:

Inspiration: Changed to Tier 1, and provides a building that gives +2 Science. A civ can then produce adepts as costly Elder Councils (Unit upkeep) to help produce science. This makes a civ starting with Mind mana think of Knowledge of the Ether as a tech creating spell.

Charm: Changed to Tier 2, resistence +20 instead of +40.

For one, this would nerf one of Loki's big uses by causing him to lose Charm Person. Also, Charm Person is a bit weak as a tier 2 spell, while Inspiration is a bit powerful as a tier 1 spell.

Nature

Treetop defense isn't very good, and also has major "1)" issues, and just like Enchantment mana, is compounded by a tier 2 spell that also doesn't stack well. Now, I *like* poisoned blade for what it does, especially with the new poison system. So I think we can leave that alone. Vitalize is a heck of a cool spell too, so let's leave it.

Treetop Defense: I think we kick it to the curb and get something new. Instead of putting down the first idea that pops into my head, I'll leave it at that.

Treetop Defense is another thematic spell with limited use. It is also the only effect of it's kind in the game, and should be left, IMO.

Shadow

Not a bad tree, but it suffers from "3)" pretty bad. I think Mistform is a cool summon, but it is yet another tier 3 summon. Suggestions:

Summon Mistform: Changed to a Council of Esus only spell (Requires CoE, Arcane, Channelling II, adjust stats to fit).

Veil: New Tier 3 Shadow spell. Adds the hidden promotion to all living units in this stack that haven't attacked this turn.

...First you say there aren't enough summons, then you suggest removing almost all the existing summons... That said, I did like Mistform better as a tier 2 spell. Still, it's a very unique and effective summon, and seems fine where it is. I don't like the idea of it being Esus-only.

Sun

Non stacking tier 1, summon tier 3... this fits most of the problems with the spell tree. What I really want is to make Blinding Light a Tier 3 spell, with a range of two. But this is going to maybe change how Ratha's work (Since they can cast blinding light, or at least, they can cast whatever the Tier 2 sun spell is. Still, I'll list this as I feel it should be in regards to spells)

Blinding Light: Made Tier 3, give it a range of 2, and change resist to +20 instead of +40.

Scorch: Changed to Tier 2 spell

Vision: New tier 1 spell. Adds the Keen Eyes promotion to a unit which gives it +1 vision, but has a 5% chance to wear off. Stacks with sentry. Since vision is something useful for more than just a single stack of units, this effect will end up 'stacking' with multiple adepts with the spell.

Ick. Now this I feel does real damage to the sphere. Scorch as a level 2 spell? That spell is underpowered as a level 1 spell. Also, +1 vision is not particularly useful; a better idea would be to add a spell somewhere that reveals invisible units. Also, the Aurealis is one of the better summons, and definitely should not be removed.

Water

Water has the best terraforming spell, so I think it can stay at tier 1, and be a 'water thing'. Also, I think we've all made a few adepts to go handle fires now and then, so I don't find this as a rare promotion to take.

However, I really don't like the tier 2 and 3 spells for water.

Water Walking: Changed to Tier 3. Water walking gives all living units in the stack the water walking promotion.

Water Elemental: Changed to Tier 2. Summons two Strength 2 water elementals with movement 2.

VERY no on the water walking. Even at tier 3, water walking armies are overpowered and make naval units even less useful. What I'd suggest is instead of having a Water Walking spell (which is pretty pointless, since you just cast it once), have the Water 2 promotion grant Water Walking, and add a Water 2 spell that perm-summons a boat of some kind. Leave Water Elemental alone, it's great for attacking coastal cities and defending boats, although it could trade a little strength for an extra move.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Kael: Do mind that Kyleen has already suffered from axing Chaos Marauders and whould suffer further from moving Pit Beasts. As whould Balspheraps as a whole thanks to their druids becoming way weaker which whould be sad (unless the new Tier 3 Chaos spell will be really hefty.).
Perhaps move Mutation back to OO Cultists and Chaos Marauders back to compensate. (i know, i call for that quite often. You whould make all the chaos-magic users happy with that one. I assure you.)

In all honesty: If you really want to stay with mutation at mages and no chaos marauders as summons anywhere, chaos sphere seems very nice as it is.
(As for people who dislike it: Their loss.) And i say this as someone who uses Chaos quite often and whould go OO a short time just for Mutation should it go back there (or a long time for that matter. OO isn't all that bad).


Also perhaps you should really consider making Water-Walking part of the Promotion Water II and adding some additional nice thing there if you really want to let Water-Elementals up there at Tier 3.
As it is no matter what water elementals will become if you make them a bit better, water seems like the worst (unless you are in a lot of dersert) of the elemental spheres. Spring is really hefty and a reason to get water indeed. But its sad that it has nothing else outstanding to offer really. Including no passive effect.


On hosts if you want to move them to Tier 2 (which i whould very much like even though Valor whould need a serious beef-up to justify Tier 3. Tier 2 whould imo already justify permanency. And i whould miss it dearly at Tier 2):
Why not merge them with Lawbringers (power (+ might be limitations?) of Lawbringers and the staying-power of the hosts)? Less cultter and after such a change they whould seem very simmilar anyways.
Wild Idea: Why not merge Valor and Loyalty but make it wear off more often (like 10% or even 25%)? Now that whould make for a decent Tier 1 spell with room for a decent Tier 3 spell for Law. (Like Unyielding Order for instance. ) Also whould fix loyalty beeing a fire- and forget fix to enragement, burning Blood and Lunacy which is a bit odd.


Edit when the idea hit me: Why not make Chaos Marauders the Summon for Entropy 2 and let Chaos 3 its Pit-Bests?
Sheiam get them from planar gates where the evil things come through, so they might fit entropy indeed (Marauders on Chaos 3 doesn't fit because of the ones comming through planar gates.).
I might even use entropy then from time to time. Even if the diplomatic drawbacks are not so nice.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Air: I really think that Maelstrom's range should be reduced by 1, but that Spell extension 1 & 2 should boost the range of ranged spells. (You could borrow the code for this from Broader Alignments, although it would probably be batter if spells were weaker/less likely to work from farther away.) I also really think that an Air Elemental's Lightning elementals need to start with the Empower and mobility promotions of the air elemental, and not be a permanent unit. Also, Flying should let a unit make amphibious assaults without penalty.

Body: not really a fan of regeneration. The sphere also doesn't have a spell that really fits Aeron's theme of Rage. I'm thinking replacing Regeneration with Burning Blood would be good. Also, Mokka's Cauldron really should create Skeletons instead of Flesh Golems. I find it detracts from the importance of Body III the current way, and really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Chaos: Remove Mutation. The passive effect of Chaos mana makes this less useful, and having the spell undermines the uniqueness of Freaks. I say you should bring back Choas Marauders (with the promotion that makes them turn barbarian; it would be better if this didn't wear off from combat) as the Chaos 2 spell.

Death: Its probably fine as it is

Earth: I really think that Wall of stone should create a temporary fort-like improvement rather than a building. (Can you please add the ability to have temporary improvements and features the same way you can have temporary terrains? I tried adding the ability to the DLL myself in version 0.30. It seemed to be working for a little while, but after my next change I got lots of CtDs.) also think that Earth Elementals should have some boost. Collateral, Bombard Abilities, the ability to move through peaks, a small chance to cast Earthquake or a small chance to change the plot is died on to a hill are all worth consideration.

Enchantment: Its ok, although I'd personally want something like flaming arrows to involve fire magic. (In my version, it will be a cross sphere spell. Enchantment 2 will probably have no spell of its own, but several different enchantments that require other spheres too.) I really think that Spellstaffs should be equipment, so one archmage can supply an army.

Entropy: not really a fan of any of them in their current form. Zechnophobe's change for wither could be good. I don't like Rust at all. I'd rather bring back summon imp, and maybe occasionally give these imps the power to summon their big brothers (I'm thinking mostly barbarian Balors). Enervation should do more damage, and also remove promotions like Courage and Morale. I much prefer this to giving all your units Fear; Fear can be overcome by a level 1 spirit spell whose promotion never wears off, and civs using entropy would probably have demons and undead with the Fear promotion anyway. Letting this remove Courage seems fitting and also makes having several casters with spirit 1 around more useful (since you'll need to use the spell repeatedly if your rival keeps casting Enervation.)

Fire: ok. I'm thinking it would be nice for fireballs to have only 1 str but also fire affinity.

Law: not a fan of Law 1. I'm considering making Valor law 1, summon einherjar law 2, and adding Banish (an offensive spell that either always kills or deals unlimited damage but only works on demons, undead, AV/OO units, and Death/Entropy casters) as Law 3. That might be too powerful though. I was also thinking that giving Host of the Einherjar Spirit guide could be good. (I like that these summons can use their xp, but once their duration expires it seems like a waste.)

Life: Destroy Undead should actually destroy undead units (or have a chance to, i.e., have no damage limit) instead of just weakening them. Life 3 needs some boost. Zechnophobe's idea could be goos, but I'm leaning towards giving the promotion a second spell. Another idea would be to make this spell kill rival undead units and give you an injured, living version of it. (It might be hard to find a living version of must though. You might just have to make them warriors, and let you upgrade them latter)


Meta Magic: I don't really think that Floating Eyes fit very well. (They are much more OO, imho.) I'd rather Ring of Warding be reintroduced as a temporary, requires-caster building at Meta Magic I. Meta Magic 2 is good as it is. (Edit: Good as it was. It should again be able to remove various magical promotions like it used to, in addition to reverting mana nodes back to raw mana.) I think that Djinni should be arcane units that start with channeling1 and maybe also channeling 2. They would then start with spell spheres based on you mana, and could cast adept of mage spells.

Mind: I have no problem with this sphere. I would be ok with switching Inspiration and Charm though. (Although Inspiration really seems like it might be better under spirit or Creation...maybe it will be a cross sphere spell in my version)

Nature: The only good spell here is Vitalize. I'm thinking Vitalize should be moved down a level, and given a significant casting delay. It also might be better as a Creation spell. I'm thinking that a summon random animal spell could be good for Nature III.

Shadow: ok, not spectacular

Spirit: Spirit III is far too weak. There shouldn't be spells that can only be cast once. It might be good if it could be used many times, but took several turns to cast, had a change to fail, and/or only effected one civ at a time. Also, this spell seems pretty useless in multi-player (not that I play multi-player). I'd be fine with keeping Trust as it is, but only if this promotion gets a second spell. (In my version, I made Corindale's Peace spell be a Spirit III/Life III cross sphere spell.) I was thinking it would be good to switch Hope and Courage and also make Courage remove Envervated, but then Dwarves couldn't beat dragons. (Courage and Valor both actually seem like they might be better as Spirit/Law cross sphere spells to me)

Sun: I don't have a huge problem with this, although I'm not a big fan of its summon. I do think that it should be strong versus Vampires though. Maybe Aureales could have a large bonus versus vampires, and also target them (and maybe also units with shadow magic) in stacks. This would require adding a <PromotionTargets> similar to BtS's <UnitClassTargets> tag. (I desperately want this tag added to units for my modmod, as well as adding <UnitClassTargets>, <UnitCombatTargets>, and <PromotionTargets> to promotions.) It would also be nice for an Aurealis to be able to target recon units and Esus UUs.

Water: Not horrible, but it could be better. I'm thinking spiring shouldn't be instant. I'd like it if water walking granted a temporary water walking promotion to units in the stack (probably just disciple and melee; water walking Hippus Cavalry would be insane). I still think it would be awesome for Water Elementals to be able to carry DOMAIN_SEA units as cargo, letting you sail right over a narrow isthmus instead of going around.


I also think that all levels of the sphere promotions should require possession of the appropriate mana. It might be good for the Spells themselves to have this prerequisite too.

 

[xienwolf]

For weaker spells, it would be nice if the promotion for the sphere itself actually did something. Like MaxAstro said, Water 2 could have the same effect AS Water Walking, making the current spell useless (it would only provide a redundant promotion), and then replace it with something fairly small and weak (like a larger range version of Spring, or a spell which does exactly what Fair Winds does, but can stack with it, meaning a AIR I + WATER 2 mage could provide a Naval Vessel with 2 bonus, 5% chance per turn to lose either bonus move point)

 

[uberfish]

Suggestions for the spell slots you aren't too happy with:

Air 1 (Fair Winds) - change this to Tornado, has a small chance to displace enemy units 1 square in a random direction (onto passable terrain only)

Chaos 1 (Dance of Blades) - currently +1 first strike; as the spell name implies great skill at close combat, add +20% strength vs melee and mounted units

Chaos 3 (Pit beast) - change this to Havoc, casts a random offensive spell. Allows the player to potentially get meteors or other spells you normally wouldn't have access to, but you could be unlucky and get a crappy summon.

Earth 1 (Wall of Stone) - this is useful enough since you can throw it up in conquered cities to provide defence

Earth 2 (Stoneskin) - what about making this one a specialized siege spell, call it Earthquake, -33% to city defence, 10% chance to destroy a random building

Entropy 1 (Wither) - Ditch this. I agree rust should be moved here

Entropy 2 (Rust) - move pit beasts here, give them 6+1 strength as moving from tier 3 to 2

Entropy 3 (Enervation) - this is totally useless apart from the AI using it to annoy the player. What about this: Degeneration: drains a level (reducing the unit xp to the midpoint of the previous level) and removes a random promotion.

Fire 1 (Blaze) - smoke needs to turn into fire faster.

Law 1 (loyalty), Life 1 (Sanctify), Spirit 1 (Courage) - they're boring but the effects are needed somewhere to counter other mechanics, this seems as good a place as any

Life 2 (destroy undead) - maybe this spell could be moved to Order priests instead, and this slot summons a basic Angel?

Life 3 (resurrection) - losing mana nodes is very painful but resurrections should come at some sort of price, maybe make it so that if you don't cast it on top of a node the caster is sacrificed instead?

Shadow 3 (Mistform) - The AI can't handle being pillaged by these. Fun effect but needs to lose the ability to pillage if moved to tier 2.

Spirit 3 (Trust) - Could give this an extra council vote.

Sun 2 (Blinding Light) - this is too powerful on rathas which are already a decent combat unit and can be massed easily.

 

[TheJopa]

Earth
Mana Effect- Increases mineral discovery chances
1. Wall of Stone (4)- decent but not very interesting
2. Stoneskin (4)- same as above, kinda dull
3. Summon Earth Elemental (8)- good elemental summon

Does stoneskin effect entire stack? Cause if it isn't then it is useless. Why would I want stronger spellcaster who won't do the fighting anyway? Earth Elemental should, in my mind, have lower attack but stronger defense. Could wall of stone also reduce bombard effect, like walls do?

Entropy- Very weak sphere, something needs to be done. Maybe rust needs to move to rank 1, Summon Pit Beast to rank 2, and a very improved enervation/wither combo at tier 3?
Mana Effect- Decreases enemy heal rate in your lands
1. Wither (2)
2. Rust (6)
3. Enervation (1)

Agree with all points. I'm sure we can find something for Chaos III to replace pit beasts. Also consider that no civ except Infernal start with entropy, and that it causes diplomatic penalties. So it should be stronger.

Life
Mana Effect- increases health
1. Sanctify (4)- boring spell
2. Destroy Undead (3)- Way to limited effect, this may be a good place for a level 2 summon?
3. Ressurection (4)- Maybe allowing unlimited ressurections isn't such a bad idea?

Ability to resurrect dead religious heroes, even if you weren't the one who built them, would be very very sweet. Also, I agree that like death, life should get 2 spells (it would even fit, since life and death are opposed) Second spell could be, if nothing, Heal (in every RPG, healing can be both arcane and divine)

Trust could reduce War Weariness.
And also I think shadow walk is bugged - it ignores only walls defense, and not terrain and culture defense.

 

[Xuenay]

Mind 3 - is Domination that good? The Civilopedia description says that if you cast it at a unit which resists it, you permanently lose the ability to cast the spell. That's a bit better than the previous "if the spell is resisted, the caster changes sides" restriction that would have prevented me from ever using Domination, but it still sounds like half the time you won't have the courage to use the spell, but on the other hand there's no point in saving it either, since the units you'd really want it to work on (heroes) have such a high chance of resisting.

I'd also like to have Unyielding Order back - for one, because it'd give more options for playing the Kuriotates. Currently you want high happiness to take advantage of their supercities, and if you want high happiness, you're almost forced to go with the Fellowship... (the OO have their tower, but it only helps for one city)

 

[Ringtailed]

Does stoneskin effect entire stack? Cause if it isn't then it is useless. Why would I want stronger spellcaster who won't do the fighting anyway?

Defense against assassins?

Mind 3 - is Domination that good? The Civilopedia description says that if you cast it at a unit which resists it, you permanently lose the ability to cast the spell.

Yeah, it is that good. If domination fails you lose the mind 3 promotion, but you can take it again the next time your unit levels. Also, there are a lot of good non-hero units to dominate like tier4 units. That's definitely worth taking the chance. Also, Balseraph druids are the best units to dominate with because there's no level requirement on them; if one druid fails too many times delete it and make another one.

I'd also like to have Unyielding Order back

It's in as an Order high priest spell...

 

[A_Hamster]

A suggestion for a Life 3 spell to accompany the present Life 3.

Prosperity: A city spell that grants the city the caster is in +6 Food, +4 Health, +4 Happy. Like Hope and Inspiration, it only lasts as long as an unit capable of casting the spell ends the turn in the city. The primary use would be to boost new cities or recently conquered cities to get them up and running. (The bonuses can be raised if necessary: after all it's still weak compared to Unyielding Order.)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Unyielding Order is still around, it just is an Order High Priest spell now. The AI Cardith is weighted (slightly) as choosing the Order, so maybe you should too.

We might as well use this thread to discuss unit-specific and Priest spells too.


I don't think that Chalid should have Pillar of Fire. This really doesn't seem particularly thematic for The Empyrean, and being able to hit enemies with both Crown of Brillance and PIllar of Fire in one turn is just too much. Having normal Empyrean High Priest spells plus the Sun and Law 1-3 is good enough.


Mardero needs more spells. At the very least, give him Divine. Sphenor has far more spells than Mardero. I don't think this was intensional, just a side effect of Spenor formerly having Divine and Summoning while Mardero had Sorcery and summoning. Also, I think that the Life sphere is an odd choice for an Angel of Junil. Sphenor should have Law, either instead of or in addition to life. Entropy and Chaos sound good for Mardero.


Arthendain should really have Cure Disease and Heal instead of (or maybe in addition to) Destroy Undead. I'm not really sure if giving him Shield of Faith and Earthquake (which channelng 2 and 3 would give him) seems right though. I still think that Cure Disease and Heal should be moved to Medic 2 and 3 instead of Divine and channeling2 and 3. (Which could also stop Grigori Medics from being de facto High Priests.)

I still think that treants need a boost, and still think that giving them siege abilities would be best, for the Elves sake. Elves should not depend so much on Fire for siege.

Bloom should be made to work on tiles that have improvements that can be built on forests, not just for civs that can build on forests. The old micro management of bloom still exists to a lesser degree when it comes to Camps.


I'm not really a fan of Summon Tiger. I think that there should be a spell that can summon any animal. The choice would be random, preferable influenced by the casters strength and the tile it is on (animals native to the terrain/features would be chosen). This might be better for a Druid spell or nature spell though.


I still think the Empyrean needs a spell that is strong against Vampires. I guess you could just make Revelation also deal damage to vamps...

I really think that Order Priests need Ring of Fire and Pillar of Fire back, on account of the civilopedia and the lore. Personally I'd like it if each priest had twice as many spells, but didn't get them immediately. It would make sense to make some spells also require certain levels or promotions (combat promotions most likely, although some spells might fit better with other promos).

 

[KingOfLands]

Yeah, it is that good. If domination fails you lose the mind 3 promotion, but you can take it again the next time your unit levels. Also, there are a lot of good non-hero units to dominate like tier4 units. That's definitely worth taking the chance. Also, Balseraph druids are the best units to dominate with because there's no level requirement on them; if one druid fails too many times delete it and make another one.

Was kicking myself earlier today when one of the giant apes spawned around turn 260 and I couldn't steal one of Auric's beastmasters to tame it.

Next time I go for the Tower of Mastery I think I'm going to try building divination first.

On a less storytime-related note, I'd really like to see Dance of Blades last longer than a couple of turns (It is one of the few changes that would make Mahala more fun for me), and having had a "buff wizard" during said Tower of Mastery attempt, the flaming arrows spells and treetop defense are really pretty unimpressive.

And I love Regeneration to death; please don't take that away. It's just wonderful when you're defending from collateral or using units that don't have ready access to March.

 

[Xuenay]

Yeah, it is that good. If domination fails you lose the mind 3 promotion, but you can take it again the next time your unit levels.

Ah, I didn't know you get it back. In that case.

It's in as an Order high priest spell...

Oh. Okay.