Spell Feedback and Review(long)

[MagisterCultuum]

I've long proposed that, but I don't think that the wall of stone improvement should improve with time like forts do. It should just start out equal to a fort (or maybe castle) and stay that way. It would be preferable if it could be made a temporary improvement, with a mechanism similar to temporary terrain used by the End of Winter Option.

 

[wig]

Here's an idea I was kicking around for the Water Sphere . It assumes that mages get a free water walking promotion with Water 2.

Water 2: Part Sea - Temporarily terraforms a coastal square into a desert square. Effect ends when the caster leaves the square.

I realize this has potential for abuse, so you may want to limit the number of squares that could affected at one time. You could use the civ's water affinity, or use a hard cap on it if that's not codable.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Here's an idea I was kicking around for the Water Sphere . It assumes that mages get a free water walking promotion with Water 2.

Water 2: Part Sea - Temporarily terraforms a coastal square into a desert square. Effect ends when the caster leaves the square.

I realize this has potential for abuse, so you may want to limit the number of squares that could affected at one time. You could use the civ's water affinity, or use a hard cap on it if that's not codable.

That sounds pretty good, but it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to make the square revert when the unit moves. It could be hard on the processor, and hard to tell if the desert the mage is on is a real desert or a sea floor. I guess you could make a new type of terrain just for this, but I wouldn't bother. Limiting the number of squares you can use it on would be very tough, processor intensive, and perhaps impossible.

I'd probably just make this spell use the Temporary Terrain mechanic used by the End of Winter Option, a few events, and a 2 of the Ice spells in my modmod. It might also be appropriate to immobilize the caster for a turn or two.


I'm thinking it might be better to move (a weakened version of) water elementals down to Water II (or, I could just go ahead and make all extra-planar summons be cross sphere spells requiring dimensional 1 and the second level of the sphere spell) and give this spell plus the water walking ability to Water III though. That would also limit the number of casters to 4 Archmages (+4 Liches, + Hemah or Gibbon, Govannon, Corindale, ect.), thus eliminating the need to limit how many casters can use the spell at once.

 

[wig]

I'm thinking it might be better to move (a weakened version of) water elementals down to Water II and give this spell plus the water walking ability to Water III though. That would also limit the number of casters to 4 Arcmages (+4 Liches), thus eliminating the need to limit how man casters can use the spell at once.

I was originally thinking that the national unit limit might be a good method of limiting it. I'd make it castable in any water square as a level III, instead of just restricting it to coastal squares.

 

[mtagge]

That sounds pretty good, but it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to make the square revert when the unit moves. It could be hard on the processor, and hard to tell if the desert the mage is on is a real desert or a sea floor. I guess you could make a new type of terrain just for this, but I wouldn't bother. Limiting the number of squares you can use it on would be very tough, processor intensive, and perhaps impossible.

Just have the spell be a summon and when the unit dies the terrain converts back to coast. Make the unit invisible and not have a unit graphic as well.

 

[Marksman77]

I don’t pretend to have deep thoughts for magic system as a whole, but as almost everyone here I have a few ideas that I can’t resist to post. Some of them are redundant with what was already said.

Life
I don’t particularly like idea of summons in Life. IMO Life should be buff and anti-undead.
1 – remove Sanctify, give Repel Undead (push back undead and deal minor damage) or Holy Blade (+40% against undead, not sure about demon)
2 – Regeneration (from Body 2) – seems good for a Life spell
3 – Resurrection (reworked to allow for more frequent use, many ideas in this thread)

Sanctify -> Priest spell
Burning Blood -> Body 2 (as said by MagisterCultuum if I recall correctly, it fits Aeron’s theme). Not sure if this change is good for the Vampires.

Wall of Stone – should be possible to cast outside cities (+25% defense bonus). In cities should act like Walls, giving also +25% bombardment defense.

Water Walking – either promotion for caster with Water II or Water II spell for stack, but only move 1 (that way it won’t make ships obsolete, just imagine how the slow stack is fragile to ranged attacks, like firebal)

Remove Fair Winds, I personally never bother to crew ships with adepts.
Instead have Air+Water passive effect +1 move for naval per 1 Air node AND 1 Water node (if codable)

Spirit passive effect (+GPP) does very seldom kick in (due to decimals), perhaps add to that War Weariness reduction, say by 1 unhappy per 1 Mana source? This goes thematically well with Spirit.

Siege – here more diversity than only Fire is needed, also we need something more thematically suited for the Elves. On a sidenote I think that using Fire mana could give negative diplo bonus (malus?) with FoL civs and/or elven civs. I think that it would be good to give bombard abilities to Treants and Earth Elementals.

Give back Ring of Flames to Order Priests!


Terraforming
I’d like a possibility to have a wide range of terraforming tools. It would feel ok for an advanced nation in fantasy setting to have a great influence on its lands (something that is also achieved with the passive mana effects). It could go like this:

In:
Water 1 – Spring: Desert->Plains
Sun 1 – Scorch: Plains -> Desert and Snow -> Tundra, Fire 1 – Blaze: removes forest
Nature 1 – Bloom: adds forest
Nature 3 – Vitalize: Snow -> Tundra(, Desert) -> Plains -> Grassland

Proposals:
Earth 2 &#8211; flat<->hills<->peaks with decent delay (3 and 5?)
Perhaps add Grassland -> Plains and Tundra -> Plains to Scorch
If Ice sphere is implemented, it could have a spell turning Desert, Grassland, Plains -> Tundra -> Snow

 

[uberfish]

Now that you mention it, regeneration does seem more like a Life spell doesn't it. I'm not sure what you'd put on body 2 though if regeneration was moved because there are Vampires to take into account. A renamed stoneskin, maybe, with earth 2 getting a siege spell?

 

[Marksman77]

I thought of Burning Blood, being in character with Agares theme.
But I also like your suggestion with Stoneskin moved to Body. And I'm all for a siege spell for Earth II.

 

[hbar]

Originally posted by Kael
3. Summon Pit Beast (6)- love the spell but your right that we could afford to have the slot be a non-summon (if we could come up with a cool chaos 3 spell i would move this to an entropy 2 spell)

I've had an idea for a good Chaos III spell bouncing around for a while...
Meteor strike: Powerful, unpredictable stackbuster/terraformer
Summons meteors to randomly strike in the area around the caster including the tile he is in
base of 1 meteor striking at random in 3x3 grid (1 space away)
with extension I, 2 meteors striking in 5x5 grid (2 spaces away)
with extension II, 3 meteors striking in 7x7 grid (3 spaces away)

Also, each meteor would have a chance to 'glassify' the tile it lands on, reverts to desert/plains like End of Winter option.

I never liked the ability to "steer" meteors around, and this adds an unpredictable element to the chaos sphere

 

[smjjames]

Chaos is all about unpredictability, so it actually fits.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Just have the spell be a summon and when the unit dies the terrain converts back to coast. Make the unit invisible and not have a unit graphic as well.

That would be much less elegant, and probably still require SDK changes. There isn't a python call for when a unit dies, just when it is killed. Having duration run out wouldn't count.






Burning Blood doesn't fit Agares' theme, it fits Aeron's. I assume that is what you meant.

It there an easy way to make burning blood effect all units in the stack except the caster? I wouldn't want to lose a mage from its limited duration.


Pit Beast probably would be better in Entropy. How about moving Enervation down to Entropy 2 and Making Pit Beasts the Entropy 3 spell?

I think Regeneration would make a good Life-Body Cross sphere spell. I'll probably make it require Life1/Body1 in my version. I'm thinking Stoneskin will probably be a Body/Earth spell. Of course, Kael still thinks that cross-sphere spells are too confusing for new users and wouldn't work well in Civ IV, although they were common in his D&D campaigns.




I don't think that Meteors would be a good spell for Chaos. It is clearly an Earth/Fire cross sphere spell in my mind.

I think that Choas 3 needs to be really random. If it weren't for world spells and spells that require specific terrain or must be in cities, I'd recommend generating a random number between 0 and the length of the list of spells, and casting whatever spell is represented by that number.


I still think that Mutation detracts from the passive effect of Chaos mana and the usefulness of Freaks. You should bring Summon Chaos Marauder back to replace it.

 

[WCH]

"I think that Choas 3 needs to be really random. If it weren't for world spells and spells that require specific terrain or must be in cities, I'd recommend generating a random number between 0 and the length of the list of spells, and casting whatever spell is represented by that number."
You mean like the effect of the Infernal Grimoire?

 

[Marksman77]

Burning Blood doesn't fit Agares' theme, it fits Aeron's. I assume that is what you meant.

Yeah, my mistake.

It there an easy way to make burning blood effect all units in the stack except the caster? I wouldn't want to lose a mage from its limited duration.

Is it possible to make the spell check every unit for Channelling promo (basic, II or III) ?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You mean like the effect of the Infernal Grimoire?

Sort of, but not quite. The Infernal Grimorie spell is hardcoded in python:

def spellReadTheGrimoire(caster):
	iRnd = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Read the Grimoire")
	if iRnd < 20:
		caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_SPECTRE'))
	if iRnd >= 20 and iRnd < 40:
		caster.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_UNHOLY_TAINT'), True)
	if iRnd >= 40 and iRnd < 60:
		caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_WITHER'))
	if iRnd >= 60 and iRnd < 70:
		caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_SUMMON_PIT_BEAST'))
	if iRnd >= 70 and iRnd < 80:
		caster.cast(gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_BURNING_BLOOD'))
	if iRnd >= 80 and iRnd < 90:
		caster.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_DEMON'), True)
	if iRnd >= 90:
		caster.kill(True, 0)

I was thinking something more like:

def spellChaos3(caster):
	caster.cast(CyGame().getSorenRandNum(gc.getNumSpellInfos(), "Chaos Spell"))

Of course, I don't think that would work so well, so you would probably have to hardcode it more like Read The Grimore. I'd prefer including all the spells be chosen by selecting a random index in a long list of possible spells instead of using so many if statements. More like this:

def spellChaos3(caster):
	spellList = [ 'SPELL_FIREBALL','SPELL_REGENERATION','SPELL_MAELSTROM','SPELL_PILLAR_OF_FIRE','SPELL_BURNING_BLOOD','SPELL_SUMMON_PIT_BEAST','SPELL_SUMMON_AIR_ELEMENTAL','SPELL_RING_OF_FLAMES','SPELL_TSUNAMI','SPELL_EVERVATION','SPELL_SUMMON_SKELETON','SPELL_MUTATION','SPELL_VALOR','SPELL_ENRAGE','SPELL_WORLDBREAK','SPELL_SUMMON_BALOR','SPELL_SUMMON_IRA','SPELL_DROWN','SPELL_BLAZE','SPELL_SACRIFICE' ]
	spell = gc.getInfoTypeForString(spellList(CyGame().getSorenRandNum(len(SpellList), "Really Random")))
	caster.cast(spell)

Is it possible to make the spell check every unit for Channelling promo (basic, II or III) ?

Well, if it is applied in python then that would not be hard at all. I don't really have a problem with making it give the promotion through python, but I'd like to minimize the number of python prereqs. The game would have to continually run those checks for all the units that meet the xml prereqs (having Body 2), which would slow the game down much more than the effects which only happen when the spell is actually cast.

Also, the AI doesn't understand python spells nearly as well as it does xml only ones (which still isn't great)


The easiest solution may just be to make the Burning Blood promotion available to all unit combats except unitcombat_adept. (There is also no need to make it available to unitcombat_siege or unitcombat_naval, but since we would set <bImmuneNotAlive>1 it wouldn't make a difference). Of course, this would mean that you could still lose Vampires, Brujahs, Vampire Lords, and Losha Valas to the limited duration sometimes given by this spell. I might be convinced to accept this, but only if Immortal units killed from limited duration were still reborn (without the limited duration or burning blood promo)

I personally think that it would be quite useful if Kael added a <PromotionImmune> tag to the spell schema, so you could make units with Body 2 immune to this spell, plus add lots of "charm promotions" that ward against you rival's harmful spells.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i hope kael and team is reading this thread, there are some great ideas in here

 

[Kael]

Heck yeah, this is good stuff!

 

[uberfish]

Trouble with Burning Blood or Enrage as a group-affecting spell (although it really does fit) is that it would lead to a lot of micromanagement since you would rarely want to cast it on the entire stack.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Y'know, what'd really help balance some of the damage spells, is if the Magic Resistance promotion came off combat I instead of Combat IV. Or at least SOME magic resistance came off of an early combat level. Maybe Combat IV or Drill I?

 

[Marksman77]

I don't remember in the moment, but wasn't resistance based on target level?

 

[Tarquelne]

I have 2 cents. Canadian, if that's OK.


Air
1. Fair Winds - I like this one. I'd like it more if it's duration was "until combat". Just to avoid the "micro" of checking to see if the spell's still up.
2. Maelstrom - I like the 2 range, but I think the effect should be lessened considerably. Both the damage and especially the damage limit.

3. Summon Air Elemental (8)- I like the 4 elemental spheres having their tier 3 summons, but okay with removing the rest

Ditto.

Body
1. Haste is great as is.

2. Regeneration - Could use bit of a boost - maybe. I think it's a solid spell. Haste is so good a not-so-great lvl2 spell for Body 2 is fine.

3. Graft Flesh - Fun!

Chaos
1. Dance of Blades - A little underpowered but I like the idea quite a bit.

2. Mutation - I'd prefer to see Ts. cut in power and OO priests given Mutation. It seems to fit OO so well. I'd put a Summon in the Chaos 2 slot. The catch, though, is that the Summon should really be something markedly different from the Spectre. I don't think the Chaos Maurader would cut it... though maybe as a Permanent summons like the skeleton?

Though I think either a combat boost or a terrain degrading spell would work well in this slot, too.

3. Summon Pit Beast - If many other Lvl3 summons are cut this would be a good one to keep. Especially if Death loses it's lvl 3. A terrain/feature ruining "Defile" could be nice here, though. Something you use to take a chunk of enemy land out of production for awhile.

A powerful "Burning Blood" type spell would work too, I think.

Death
1. Skeleton - good
2. Spectre - I'm uneasy about the Affinity.
3. Litch - good
3. Summon Wraith - I wouldn't miss it, but it works well.

Earth
1. Wall of Stone - I like it.
2. Stoneskin (4) - I've come to appreciate this one quite a bit, and wouldn't want to see it moved to Body.

But perhaps move a lesser version of Stoneskin to lvl 1 and put a production-oriented Hope/Inspiration type effect in for lvl2? Or a good siege spell?

3. Earth Elemental - I like the elementals, though I'd like to see even greater differences between them.

Enchantment
1. Enchanted Blade - good. Cut it to 10% and I'd still think it worthwhile.
2. Flaming Arrows - Ok. I think my lack of enthusiasm toward it has more to do with Archer-type units than the spell itself.
3. Spellstaff - I've always wanted more from lvl3 enchant. Nothing wrong with Spellstaff, though, and I've never thought of something better.

Entropy
1. Wither - I like the idea, though I think a stronger effect would be better.
2. Rust - I think this one's fun and powerful.
3. Enervation - Same as Wither: I like the idea and think the spell just needs a boost. Maybe even remove some xps from the targets?

Fire
1. Blaze - Fun.
2. Fireball - As a summoned bombarding fast collateral damage unit I think it's a little too powerful. Maybe just drop it's "bombard"? Then at least you'll need to get next to a city before wrecking it's defense bonus.
3. Fire Elemental - Good.

Law
1. Loyalty - Good, but this is one of the very few that I consider "boring". Maybe roll it up into Valor and have Law 1 be a low level but often-useful combat boost? Signifying the benefits of increased discipline? Maybe a permanent boost, ala Enchanted Blade.
2. Valor - Maybe dull, but I'd say "very good."
3. Summon Hosts of the Einherjar - One of the most useful Summons.

Life
1. Sanctify - Combining this with Destroy undead could be nice.
Rank two could be a healing boost, or perhaps boost food production? A medic-type promotion would be good, too.

3. Resurrection - I like the idea to allow unlimited resurrections, assuming the hero is "reset" to 0 xp.

Metamagic
1. Floating Eye - I like it, though I'd like it better as a Permanent Summon (ala Skeleton) or if you got 2 eyes.
2. Dispel Magic - Good.
3. Djinn - The affinity-with-everything is interesting, but I don't think it works out well in play. And I think Metamagic 3 is too good an opportunity to do something more interesting than a summon. A "ward" that disallows summoned creatures within 2-3 tiles of the caster? 2-3 tiles of a city? (Could such an effect be resistable?)

Mind
1. Charm Person - Good but perhaps too powerful.
2. Inspiration - Dropping it a rank is a nice idea - At Adept level +4 research is a much bigger deal.
3. Domination - Another fun one.

Nature
I like them all. The change to Treetop Defense is very welcome.

Shadow
1. Blur - I'd like to see Blur and Shadowwalk combined - I think of them both as city-attack spells, anyway.
2. Shadowwalk - I think a stealth-type spell would be good here. Some limited form of invisibility. Or something that gives good combat Withdraw abilities? Or even the ability to move on enemy roads?
3. Summon Mistform - Maybe my least-favorite summon. How about a more powerful invisibility?

Spirit
1. Courage - In addition to the present effect could it be given a combat odds boost combined with an increased chance the unit takes at least a little damage in combat? Probably too much effort for the result...
2. Hope - A very good spell IMO.
3. Trust - I like this one a great deal.

Sun
1. Scorch - I like it.

2. Blinding Light - If Charm Person is moved to Rank 2 then I'd like to see a more resistible version of this moved to rank 1. I think the two spells are too much alike. Not a big deal, though.

I like this a lot with Rathas, it's just as a Mage-spell that I find it lacking in interest.

3. Summon Aurelis - Ok, _this_ is my least favorite summon. How about a spell that either
a) Temporarily improves food yield in a city. (probably a caster-building)
or
b) gives +1 or 2 food in a city permanently
plus maybe:
Can Scorch a wide area.

Water
1. Spring - This is so handy I think it deserves to go to level 2.

2. Water Walking - As something that only effects the caster I think level 1 would be better. It can be _extremely_ useful, true, but I think mostly in combination with lvl 2+ spells.

3. Water Elemental - Good. Maybe collateral, too?