Spies and Corporations - Utterly Useless?

[GarethBeaumains]

Spies

For the life of me, I can't ever promote a spy past Level 1.

After trying to get a city to revolt about twenty times, I just stopped caring.

I tried "aggressive" spy strategies, and.... it was all sound and fury, signifying nothing. Instead, if I just culture-expanded, I could get a city to pop without a spy. And if I parked a dozen units on it (after declaring war on its owner), lo-and-behold, it also popped to me. Spies? A lot of wasted time sitting waiting for the cost to drop, and then more time to run back to where they had been parked... and.... no net effect.

I really didn't want to "destroy" improvements or progress, and I had plenty of gold. I was trying to get a city to revolt and pop. But... it never did. And there never seemed to be an effect on the health of the defending units. Ho hum.

After repeated attempts to make spies useful, I inevitably parked my spies in my own city so they didn't risk getting caught and just had them act as passive spy detectors.

Defenses didn't seem to work right. I built tons of defenses in some cities, and there'd always be tons of missions successfully concluded against them. Other cities? I built no defenses, and they were apparently uninteresting targets for my opponents.

Underwhelmed.

Corporations

I have played BTS a good few times now, and finally figured out how to start a corporation after a lot of games. Some times, I didn't have the resource that was needed (the particular icons to start a corporation were greyed out in the GP's options). Other times, I had the resource but didn't have an appropriate Great Person (Wow, another Great Artist! How... useless!)

Regardless, I finally got a game where I began a corporation and found it.... boring.

After expanding a bit, I just ignored the corporation. I was winning without it, and it didn't help really lead to a victory condition. Nor did it help create any sort of diplomacy advantage.

Of course, timing is everything. It got started so late in the game that I was nearly ready to be building for Alpha Centauri. So it was a side-show without purpose or meaning.

Maybe I really don't get it. Can someone provide a rational explanation of a strategy where a corporation is even necessary?

Also, a few things I wished to have seen:

1. Mutual prosperity: make international relationships better by making both your economies flourish.

2. Hostile takeover: is there a way to "buy out" the corporations of another player? Could you subvert them with spies?

3. Bidding wars: maybe your rivals could beg you to locate branch offices in their cities. "Please open up that aluminum company in town...!"

Right now, corporations are utterly dispensable in terms of diplomacy and victory.

Again, please prove me wrong. Make a business case for spies and for corporations. Why should I care? What am I missing? What good are they?

 

[mariogreymist]

I haven't noticed any diplomatic interplay with corporations, but they can be a very strong tool in the late game. Sid's Sushi can provide food for your cities, letting you hire more specialists (and in turn generating more GP). Mining Inc is the real kicker, though. It's not that hard to get a version providing 10 or more. It allows you to turn anemic production cities into production centers which rival the best of your opponents...and as for the high production cities you have - let's just say I like to have cities that turn out tanks in a single turn...on marathon.

 

[JujuLautre]

For corporations, you definitely need to plan them to use them efficiently. Building one just because you can could be worthwhile, but not in the same way. Anyway, try to read http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273426. This game was definitely won because of the corp (and all the other brilliant play obv)

As for spies, I have no idea what you tried to do.

 

[Virtual Alex]

I was really confused what your problem with spies is. When you are talking about "popping" are you talking about culture flipping? I haven't tried using spies for that, but "incite revolt" isn't to make them culture flip to you. Incite revolt makes the cities cultural defense drop to 0 so you don't have to bombard the defenses down. So you park your stack outside the city, incite a revolt, and then attack. No need to bring siege (of course you still need to kill the defenders.) Inciting a revolt wouldn't damage any units inside anyway.

Why do you think destroying improvements is so useless? I have often destroyed bunkers, barracks, forges and factories on my enemies production cities.

Also just because spies get a discount when sitting still for 5 turns doesn't mean you have to do that. If you are really putting effort into espionage then you should have no problem doing missions without waiting for 5 turns.

I am pretty sure spies don't get promotions.

Having a spy in your city doesn't make that city immune to spies, it just makes the chances for their success lower. To really cut down on spy missions you want to run counter-espionage in your AI's cities.

Spies can also steal technology, which you either don't know about, or just ignore mentioning. But that is quite a useful mission for them.

 

[GarethBeaumains]

I was playing in a nice safe game, so I was well ahead in tech... so there was nothing to steal.

By the time I created the corp, I had so many units recruited, and was so far ahead of my rivals that I didn't need the production boost. Indeed, I was just turning every city to extra culture because I was tired of building so many units every turn.

Like I said, I built the corp late, so it didn't seem to be worth it, especially if I was already starting to get bored of building more stuff.

As for the spies, I used them earlier in the game. There was a city on the edge of my nation. It was already being culture-affected to revolt to me. I tried to foment the revolt with spies. It didn't do anything. Eventually I just ignored spy-building and instead dropped Espionage back to 0. Instead I slid the culture bar up, and lo-and-behold, the city popped to me naturally.

That's what I mean by useless.

As far as destroying upgrades, maybe late in the game if I was trying to thwart a space race, or if I wanted to ensure that a rival couldn't make a single new military unit, sure I could swamp them with dozens of spies... that is, if I could afford all those missions. Still, I'd rather just have extra tanks and take the city outright rather than dink around with hampering its production.

 

[Sincro]

I loathe spies. I tend to only use them as passive defenders, because unless I build overwhelming numbers of them, they rarely seem to last long enough in enemy territory before being caught, and the diplo hits just aren't worth it.

Which means in virtually all my games I am getting overrun with AI spies. It's usually not a problem, because I put a spy or two in each of my cities early on for passive defense, and I do prioritize the espionage buildings, but it's annoying as hell to get multiple messages about this spy or that spy being caught every single turn of the game for hundreds of straight turns. If the player had a relations factor with the AIs for spy use, it would make me perma-furious with every AI with the 'your spy was caught causing trouble' diplo hit. I can only assume that the only civ the AI really sends spies after is the player, because otherwise every AI civ would hate each other.

I think spies were underpowered in vanilla, and in BTS they have gone too far in the other direction. They are gotten too early, are too cheap to build, you can build an unlimited number of them, and too hard to defend against. Closing borders should make it harder to spy, but it doesn't. Certain civics, like police state, ought to make it harder on spies, too.

I would love to lay games with no espionage, but the other half of the espionage game is *really* nice. It gives a good feel for how well you know your opponent, and doesn't assume you know everything there is to know.

 

[Glassfan]

Concur w/ VAlex, Spies don't get promotions. They start with Commando I (?) so they can get around the map, but they can't recieve improvements like in Civ III. You have to increase your espionage ratios with your enemies. Tweek the espionage buttons so that you have superior ratios and your missions will be more successful and your own cities will be safer. Build jails and other intelligence improvements, and convert Great Spies into Scotland Yard or into specialists. If you can get your ratios above 1/2 (ie.,235/560, or 1028/2450)you'll have an easier game. 1/5 to 1/10 ratios can lead you to real dominance. At 1/10, you can see into enemy cities. Also, put a spy and a unit on important resources (Uranium, etc) to protect them, especially if you have only one.

 

[mariogreymist]

I was playing in a nice safe game, so I was well ahead in tech... so there was nothing to steal.

By the time I created the corp, I had so many units recruited, and was so far ahead of my rivals that I didn't need the production boost. Indeed, I was just turning every city to extra culture because I was tired of building so many units every turn.

Like I said, I built the corp late, so it didn't seem to be worth it, especially if I was already starting to get bored of building more stuff.

As for the spies, I used them earlier in the game. There was a city on the edge of my nation. It was already being culture-affected to revolt to me. I tried to foment the revolt with spies. It didn't do anything. Eventually I just ignored spy-building and instead dropped Espionage back to 0. Instead I slid the culture bar up, and lo-and-behold, the city popped to me naturally.

That's what I mean by useless.

As far as destroying upgrades, maybe late in the game if I was trying to thwart a space race, or if I wanted to ensure that a rival couldn't make a single new military unit, sure I could swamp them with dozens of spies... that is, if I could afford all those missions. Still, I'd rather just have extra tanks and take the city outright rather than dink around with hampering its production.

If you are that far ahead, I think the problem is the difficulty level, not the corporate or espionage system.

Just saying.

 

[GarethBeaumains]

If I slide the tech bar, I get faster development of technologies. That's very important for any sort of win!

If I slide the culture bar, my borders expand quickly and cities pop to my faction naturally. Awesome for peacetime expansion. Also can lead to culture win.

If I keep some points off the sliders, I get more gold. Always useful for unit upgrades, finishing production in a city, etc.

If I slide the espionage bar? I can get much of the same intelligence as having a religion in the city. Some defenses against the gnat-like plinking of spies. And... That's it?

To me, it's the "weak sister" of the elements of player macro-control of their society. A big shrug-filled "Meh."

I'll have to dink around more with corporations. Maybe I can see at higher difficulty levels they might be crucial. At lower difficulty levels they just make an overkill game more... overkill-y.

In comparison to religions, which unlock new buildings, can "flip" cultures from cautious to friendly as soon as you can get enough missionaries in-country, and very much affect the cultural development of cities and fate of nations... The awesome exclamation of "Wow! More hammers/coin/food!" doesn't seem on par.

Corps just... dunno... Seem likewise "Meh."

Then again, I've yet to see a "big corp" change the character of a nation. I'll try again. But... does someone see my point of whether this is a "game changer" or just a bit of chrome?

 

[mariogreymist]

It's a game changer, if you use it properly.

 

[GarethBeaumains]

I loathe spies. I tend to only use them as passive defenders, because unless I build overwhelming numbers of them, they rarely seem to last long enough in enemy territory before being caught, and the diplo hits just aren't worth it.

Which means in virtually all my games I am getting overrun with AI spies. It's usually not a problem, because I put a spy or two in each of my cities early on for passive defense, and I do prioritize the espionage buildings, but it's annoying as hell to get multiple messages about this spy or that spy being caught every single turn of the game for hundreds of straight turns. If the player had a relations factor with the AIs for spy use, it would make me perma-furious with every AI with the 'your spy was caught causing trouble' diplo hit. I can only assume that the only civ the AI really sends spies after is the player, because otherwise every AI civ would hate each other.

I think spies were underpowered in vanilla, and in BTS they have gone too far in the other direction. They are gotten too early, are too cheap to build, you can build an unlimited number of them, and too hard to defend against. Closing borders should make it harder to spy, but it doesn't. Certain civics, like police state, ought to make it harder on spies, too.

I would love to lay games with no espionage, but the other half of the espionage game is *really* nice. It gives a good feel for how well you know your opponent, and doesn't assume you know everything there is to know.

Sincro sums up my feelings. All the messages every turn about what cities were getting hit was annoying. I did build up defenses, and a lot of the messages were just noise, but I was still losing improvements and buildings and getting poisoned consistently. It was a nuisance and not something you could do but just endure it like a low-grade cultural fever.

I was also really cheesed to watch how the people who were +10 in diplomatic relations were often the ones I was catching the spies of. WTH? If we're such good allies, why are you sending spies after me?

Random.

 

[kaltorak]

Well you are saying spies and corps are useless, in a game that is already won... But what isn't?

"Hey, I think this unit with 1000 strength is useless, since the game was already won when I built it so I didn't need it for winning"

(no offense meant, it's just an example)

 

[Iranon]

The main thing I dislike about spies: The AIs use them haphazardly and essentially waste a good part of their commerce.
I also believe that if a spy gets caught doing something despicable like widdling into my water supply, I should be able to declare war on the civ responsible regardless of existing treaties and with less dispproval from their friends.

Otherwise, I like the new concepts... it's viable to make them the centerpiece of your strategy, and it's viable to ignore them entirely.

Tech stealing is good enough; when making all discounts work for you it's cheaper than self-researching, spy specialists have a higher base output than scientists and you can get some raw espionage from buildings.
Other uses can also be attractive... forcing civic/religion changes can allow one to bribe someone into war against a former BFF for example. Incite Revolt won't flip the city, it will only stop all output for a turn and eliminate culture defense... an alternative to bombardement and can hold up a cultural/spaceship victory almsot indefinitely.
sabotaging infrastructure/halting production might be cheaper in the case of space. Resource denial can be worth the investment to keep a prospective victim from building nukes, sabotaging health or happiness on a grand scale by blowing up the appropriate improvements and buildings is also an option.

Spies need to be used well to be an asset rather than a waste of time; this makes them more enjoyable for me.

*

Corporations are reliable game breakers from my experience, especially Mining.Inc as that can be had quite early. Sushi can also be very big... having a filler city in a permafrost era rival any opponents' capital sounds good to me.
Since State Property by itself is still a great civic and waging war with what you have is usually attractive at that time, I don't feel railroaded (lame pun intended) to beeline towards Mining.Inc.

 

[Patak]

Espionage is quite usefull. I tend to do combo hit on the city with:
1. poison water
2. incite revolt (the units in the city are damadged)
3. Attack the city with the army

or destroying the only oil well to the AI while in war with him (at least 5 turns he can produce only mech inf).

 

[Bostock]

Incite Revolt doesn't damage the defenders in a city. It's still insanely useful, however, since it sets the city's defense bonus to 0% for a turn -- so as long as you have enough troops to take the city that same turn, you don't have to worry about bombarding the defense bonus down.

To the OP: I'd just like to join the choir here in saying that, if no AIs ever have any techs worth stealing, you never have a use for the military benefits of e.g. inciting revolt, and you never need to warlessly slow down an AI space race or culture win attempt, then the problem is not that spying is weak...

As for corps: if you understand them, they can be quite powerful. Go to the Strategy Articles section of Strategy and Tips and read the Power of Sushi and you'll get a better feel for them.

 

[johnny5000]

Mining Inc is great for boosting production in newly settled or underproducing cities later in the game. It can be a pretty huge boost, so you don't have to sit there forever waiting for a theater or courthouse to get built, and you don't have to waste a lot of money rush-buying everything.

I recently had a game with a terra map type. I got astronomy, sailed across the ocean and settled a bunch of new cities, and when I created Mining Inc it really sped up production so I could make them worthwhile to keep.

 

[mariogreymist]

Mining Inc is great for boosting production in newly settled or underproducing cities later in the game. It can be a pretty huge boost, so you don't have to sit there forever waiting for a theater or courthouse to get built, and you don't have to waste a lot of money rush-buying everything.

I recently had a game with a terra map type. I got astronomy, sailed across the ocean and settled a bunch of new cities, and when I created Mining Inc it really sped up production so I could make them worthwhile to keep.

Pair mining with sushi, and you'll be shocked at how fast those colonial cities become profitable metropolises.

 

[johnny5000]

Pair mining with sushi, and you'll be shocked at how fast those colonial cities become profitable metropolises.

Yes, I did have sushi also.
It's a great combo.

It did take me quite a few attempts before I finally figured out how to make corporations work for me though. At first it seems like they're either useless or just a waste of money, but used properly they're hugely effective.

 

[TheLadiesOgre]

Super Spies anyone? The standalone version hasn't been updated to 3.19 yet, but it is included in RevDCM (which is for 3.19). Anyone who feels that spies are "utterly useless" hasn't player with Super Spies yet.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Anyone who feels that either of these options are useless has not played the game enough nor done any true forum research. A passing attempt at the search feature or a semi-rigorous in-game trial should prove both very useful.