*Spoiler1* Gotm19-Ottomans - Green-Brown-Red

Originally posted by Ribannah
But having a perfectly good Worker join the capital in the early game is generally not a good idea.

Since you said generally, I think it might be worth while to describe that a little better. In any game of Monarch or lower it is usually not worth it. On any Emp or Diety game, where barbs exist it becomes a good trade. I don't think early workers are that critical for a normal game, for a milked game they are absolutely necessary. But if you are in a situation where you have to defend each worker with a couple units then you are approaching the point where its costing more than its usefulness.


On another topic, Creepster and others that got that initial worker trade for two techs and 8g, what version were you using? A bit of a difference from what I paid using PTW1.21, that is the same techs and 30g. What was different? A few turns on one those techs? (I'll assume masonry, and anywhere from 5-10gpt difference? Celts didn't look to have much in the way of research power.) A bit interesting in light of the trading thread Moonsinger brought up recently.
 
I only have PTW 1.14. The techs were Masonry and Bronze Working. What could be different is that you paid what the Celts were asking, instead of the minimum that they would accept. :)

Regarding you Worker: if you are afraid of Barbarians - on emperor and deity the AI will take care of them with all their exploring extra units! - you can always wait until they show up and then bring the Worker into the capital, if you can't protect it. Or just move a defender or attacker out for a turn and turn the luxury slider up.
So far I've never lost a Worker to Barbarians in the early game, but GOTM#20 may be different if I choose Predator!

The only time when having the Worker join the capital may be a good move is when there is no land of importance to improve. But in that case you might consider a long trek with your Settler instead ....
 
Joining your worker is a very temporary advantage. You fall behind after 10 turns if industrious, or 20 if non-industrious.

The only case I can think of where the first 10-20 turns are that important is a multiplayer Jag rush.
 
Originally posted by Smirk

On another topic, Creepster and others that got that initial worker trade for two techs and 8g, what version were you using? A bit of a difference from what I paid using PTW1.21, that is the same techs and 30g. What was different? A few turns on one those techs? (I'll assume masonry, and anywhere from 5-10gpt difference? Celts didn't look to have much in the way of research power.) A bit interesting in light of the trading thread Moonsinger brought up recently.

The same as Ribannah. Bronze working, masonry and 8 gold for 2 workers. Also PTW 1.14...
 
@ribannah, smirk:
I was replaying SirPlebs QSC game and the celts even took the two techs+2gold for their two workers...

(Unfortunately from that moment for some reason the celts and charthagens were a lot less willing to trade with me than with SirPleb - possibly the RNG allowed them to contact each other earlier, driving down the price of the shared techs...)
 
Originally posted by Ribannah
I only have PTW 1.14. The techs were Masonry and Bronze Working. What could be different is that you paid what the Celts were asking, instead of the minimum that they would accept. :)


[sarcasm]
Oh silly me, you mean you can change the amount you trade, and the AI doesn't automatically suggest the best deal for you?
[/sarcasm]


A few turns of tech research difference could amount for some of it, but I just wondered if the versions were the same, hence a valid comparison. They aren't (I use 1.21) so there may be more to it.
 
You'd be surprised to know how many people don't know you can bargain, or simply forget. :lol:

I did some checking with meeting the Celts in different years:

3750 BC - they want the two tech plus $8
3700 BC - Workers (Settler?) not home
3650 BC - they want the two techs plus $25
3600 BC - they want the two techs plus $34

So by the looks of it the Celts started researching one of the techs. I was unable to meet them in 3800 BC, perhaps that's when they would ask for only $2.
 
Originally posted by Ribannah
You'd be surprised to know how many people don't know you can bargain, or simply forget. :lol:

I did some checking with meeting the Celts in different years:

3750 BC - they want the two tech plus $8
3700 BC - Workers (Settler?) not home
3650 BC - they want the two techs plus $25
3600 BC - they want the two techs plus $34

So by the looks of it the Celts started researching one of the techs. I was unable to meet them in 3800 BC, perhaps that's when they would ask for only $2.

I also made my deal with the celts in 3750 BC and I paid the same for those workers as Ribannah did...
 
Hmmm.
Need some strategy tips here. It's my first GOTM, and my first Emporer level game, so I'm heartened that I've even survived this long. I thought I'd try the tactic where I'd buy my techs rather than research them, but this had led to the state where I'm several (4) key techs behind (am in the Middle Ages). I just traded an arm an a leg for gunpowder.
The entire continent is accounted for so now I'm wanting to take out the Celts, as with what I've got I'll never catch up to . However, In the time it's taken me to build up an attack force, I'm sure they've gotten pikemen and possibly musket-men.
I was thinking of waiting for the chance to buy the techs needed for calvalry, meanwhile building lots of catapults for softening up duties. I'm worried that this will be too long of a wait and by that time the Celts will have really good defensive units. My main goal is to attack two cities to start with, the second one is thir capital (with Pyramids, which I want for the culture) and the first is between one of my cities and it.
Arrggh. What to do... Any ideas? Thanks.
 
Aoddev, as the Ottomans you have three things going for you:

(1) you're industrial, so you can develop even that nasty jungle,
(2) you're scientific, which means cheap libraries and universities as well as a free tech when you enter a new age;
(3) you get the Sipahi as unique unit, which is great.

Looks to me you should try and make good use of all these advantages. More advice than that would be beyond the intention of the GOTM and this spoiler thread, but you can ask again after finishing the game! :)
 
Originally posted by aoddev
Hmmm.
Need some strategy tips here. It's my first GOTM, and my first Emporer level game, so I'm heartened that I've even survived this long. I thought I'd try the tactic where I'd buy my techs rather than research them, but this had led to the state where I'm several (4) key techs behind (am in the Middle Ages). I just traded an arm an a leg for gunpowder.
The trick is to try to resell the tech to another civ less advanced than you. Difficult if you don't know many civs, unfortunately.

The entire continent is accounted for so now I'm wanting to take out the Celts, as with what I've got I'll never catch up to . However, In the time it's taken me to build up an attack force, I'm sure they've gotten pikemen and possibly musket-men.
I was thinking of waiting for the chance to buy the techs needed for calvalry, meanwhile building lots of catapults for softening up duties. I'm worried that this will be too long of a wait and by that time the Celts will have really good defensive units. My main goal is to attack two cities to start with, the second one is thir capital (with Pyramids, which I want for the culture) and the first is between one of my cities and it.
Arrggh. What to do... Any ideas? Thanks.
Well, this isn't really supposed to be a hints and tricks thread. But one important point isn't really a hint for this game. You will not get culture from the Pyramids if you capture them. You will get a granary in all your continental cities, but the only cultural effect will be to deprive the Celts of any additional culture - they will keep that which has been generated already.
That doesn't make it necessarily a bad idea to get the Pyramids; just be aware it won't solve any culture problem you might have.
 
Ill health delayed me this month, making this the first month I’ve missed the QSC deadline for the GOTM. Although I didn’t keep a detailed log after the deadline passed, I’ve managed to remember most of the early strategic decisions, and I’ve recovered some screenshots of early exploration and terrain improvements.

As per my second strategy post in the prelim discussion thread, I moved my warrior west and worker south. The warrior spotted wheat, and the worker game, causing my settler to move SW downriver in order to use both resources. Sogut is founded in the next turn, and as the minimap shows us further north, the hut warrior headed south. Research was dialed up to 100% on Pottery as usual on Emperor.

I quickly met Brennus of the Celts. He had workers available on the turn I contacted him, and I traded tech and a bit of gold for both of them as workers are more valuable than tech this early in the game. Here’s a picture of Sogut as it just hit size 2- having extra workers has netted me extra gold as well as being able to have both the mined plains and irrigation of the wheat already.

earlysetup.JPG


I built one settler before a granary, and settled it close to Sogut as the other ‘settler pump.’ After Pottery, I go for max research on the Wheel, as it has high trade value and will reveal Horses for possible Sipahi to be built. I find Hannibal, but don’t trade with him until I get the Wheel and can afford Alphabet.

The first settler out founds Iznik above the dyes and immediately starts a granary, sped by the worker’s chop of the game forest, which is then irrigated. Once the Wheel is acquired, I swap it around for all the tech to get up to parity, and start 40-turn research on Math.

Both Sogut and Iznik get granaries, and start churning out settlers. Early on, I had planned to micromanage the tile use in these cities each turn, but ill health caused me to write it off, making this month a low one as far as extracting the most from city placement.

Antalya becomes military HQ with an early rax, and early warriors guarded workers against barbs. I lost no workers or settlers to barbs, and only one exposed warrior.

I successfully make the 40-turn gambit on Math, and reap a net profit of gold as well as Writing, Mysticism, and Iron Working. This has slowed down the tech pace and allowed me to build up a large reservoir of gold.

math_gambit.JPG


As I can barely see red borders to the south, I decide to go for an expensive, non-preferred tech to research… but not at 40 turns, as if the other AIs know each other, they will make any further gambits useless as soon as Map Making is discovered.

I didn’t reach 1000 BC before the QSC submission deadline, but my ‘mock QSC’ for comparison lists some statistics and a screenshot:

10 cities
3 settlers
3 workers; 3 guest workers
2 granaries
2 temples
1 barracks
18 citizens
8 warriors
7 spearmen

Techs: IW, Math, Writing, Map Making, Philosophy, Mysticism, HBR

Currency is due in 4 turns using 25gpt to do so. Dense placement of cities has cut down on my territory, but has allowed me to work tiles with roads, massively boosting my early income.

Civ score is about 300 or so.

This isn’t as good as my past QSCs, but is still a strong start for Emperor, especially when you consider that I about to get luxury #4 hooked up in 8 turns or so. I see that most players have blown me out of the water in city count, which I expected as being ill doesn’t inspire me to new heights of micromanagement. I’ll make up for it next month as survival will force me to near-obsession with it at Deity level. :lol:

After a few more settlers are produced, I reach the limits of space without war, and Iznik becomes a worker factory, pumping them out every three turns as it fluctuates from size 3-4.

After Currency, I research Literature for the cheap culture and boost to research from libraries. I also pick this tech as one that the AI is less likely to research, making it more valuable for trade.

In 825 BC, I make contact with <deleted> and Rome, passing beyond the reach of this spoiler thread as far as map info and contacts.

censoredgbr.JPG


I've already reached the middle ages, but I'm going to save the little bits of details regarding the last few techs for the next spoiler thread as brokering with <censored> civs was vital in acquiring them. This start isn't bad for a 'lazy game', and the amount of luxuries nearby remind me of Phys1, but without the immediate threat of war that comes from landing in the middle of a pangea. Buying those workers crippled Celtic expansion, as they only attempted to send one settler pair across my territory very late, and turned back almost immediately when I told them to leave. Rome is incredibly strong and well-developed, and I suspect an extra settler or workers or both given to them, as they are usually weak in comparison to other civs in single player games.

The next report in the second spoiler thread will occurr in a few days, once I'm recovered enough to play Civ. The early game so far has been a fun variation on the continents map, albeit with an obviously overpowered Rome. (Rome has no food bonuses in either of its first two cities, and with its city spacing, would have no chance at being this strong without assistance from the mapmaker.)
 
Originally posted by MadScot

Well, this isn't really supposed to be a hints and tricks thread.

Ooops. My bad, sorry about that. Thanks for the "sneaky" tips though. I'm playing Civ3v1.29, so I get the Balkan Dragoons (same thing) - which I had forgotten about... ;^)
 
Originally posted by vanatteveldt
I was replaying SirPlebs QSC game and the celts even took the two techs+2gold for their two workers...
I just tried replaying according to my QSC and it came up the same as originally for that trade, it took both techs + 8g to get the workers.

But then something strange happened at the end of that turn - the Celt warrior moved NW and blocked my warrior from the S move I originally made next. This is weird. Either I fouled up in my QSC notes (but at first try carrying on, that doesn't make sense - WarriorTheHut doesn't end up matching my notes a few turns later if I send him in other directions, he seems to need to go S now to match up), or the preserve random seed option still leaves something actually random (doesn't make much sense either) or ??? I don't get it, it is strange. I will try again to recreate my QSC tomorrow.

BTW Vanatteveldt, are you using PTW 1.21? A different version of Civ might also make a difference in how random events unfold I think.
 
AFAIK the random seed generates a number of outcomes but not a very large number. I would guess that you cannot recreate more than 100 moves and get the random seed preserved.
 
Originally posted by Yndy
I would guess that you cannot recreate more than 100 moves and get the random seed preserved.
I proofed one of my QSCs all the way to 1000BC to make sure it was ok, so the RNG sequence is at least sometimes reproduceable. Perhaps there's just one small exception somewhere. Or perhaps there's something else wrong here and I'm not getting it...
 
I had the same (with the warrior moving the wrong way) so I reloaded the auto-save, offered them 8gold instead of 2 and then he moved according to your notes. This made me curious so I reloaded again and did the same thing but then he blocked my path again. So either there is still some stray random effect, or alternatively I moved things in a different order (in the same turn)whcih might have triggered different random effects (although there wasn't any combat or goody huts yey so I don't know what the other triggered random effect might have been.

Even nastier: as I wrote above the carthagens and celts refused the second round of trading in your QSC log, so my guess was that they had made contact with each other, but in any case that means there is an addidional random factor in play...

PS @Sirpleb: I have admiration for your playing skill and the level of detail of your notes - both very educating (not to say humiliating :-))
 
Stupid Question...

Since in the process of getting to the 8g or 2g number, you must have iterated around the "we're close to a deal"/"this deal should be acceptable" loop...does the RNG play a part in determining your advisors response? Perhaps now knowing the answer is 8g you go straight there, whereas before you offered them a different amount?

Just a thought, I'm sure you have covered it already
 
I actually don't think there is any random involved in the advise; he's always right as far as I know. So that should not trigger a RN. but then again, something must trigger RN's as the action by the warrior varied even as I loaded the previous autosave... although that might just be a matter of the order of things I did in my turn or something like that. I didn't think it was very important so I did not do proper experimenting...
 
The advisor may always be right. (My advisor is a she :))

But what selects the various insults from the other civ's leader if you make an offer? Did anyone make offers?
 
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