*Spoiler2* - Gotm21-Melee - End of Medieval Age

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
IIRC the chances of getting a GL depend on how many attacks you make with Elite units - it's a statistics crapshoot, but the basic factor depends on the human building units, not the AI.

It depends primarily on the AI building units. No matter how many units you build, you don't get leader chances except by killing enemy units. So the more units they build (especially, the more archers, which are easy to kill even with wounded elite units), the greater your leader chances. It's easy to beat up a weaker opponent quickly, but not rack up enough kills to have a good chance at a GL.

On the other hand, the Open players could perhaps fight more total wars, killing fewer in each, to get to the same point.

I still think Predator can probably support a faster space race than Open. I still don't think this is any kind of a problem. Cracker has often mentioned that the Predator handicaps may have some indirect advantages. But mostly people should be playing Predator or Open based on their comfort level, and the (lack of) exact comparison between them is immaterial.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Can you just fortify your swordmans on the mountain and wait for their achers to attack you instead?

Possibly, although I think they are often smart enough not to do that. Maybe I can lure them in if I leave just a single swordsman there, instead of a stack of them. Anyway, I'm sure I could have prosecuted the First German War more effectively, but I think it worked out ok, I was putting most of my mental energies into infrastructure development, which was more important really. The only long-term consequence, I think, is that the Russians expanded more before I could get through Germany, and so I'm going to have to fight them at some point to complete my second core around Berlin. But that's not going to be a big deal, I think.

 

[CruddyLeper]

Predator 1.29

DaviddesJ - I can only go from what happened in my game, but I was struggling to build units to war with, not struggling to find opponents to kill.

If Open players were in that position I can understand the concern - I just have difficulty imagining it, that's all.

 

[samildanach]

On the other hand, the Open players could perhaps fight more total wars, killing fewer in each, to get to the same point.

Yes, however, the consequences of that may be not getting the gold you need from other civs to maintain a four turn research rate or rush the improvements you need. So I still think it was generally easier for predator class players to generate the GLs DDJ.

 

[samildanach]

Cracker has often mentioned that the Predator handicaps may have some indirect advantages. But mostly people should be playing Predator or Open based on their comfort level, and the (lack of) exact comparison between them is immaterial.

As far as I am aware players are choosing to play predator over open because they want more of challenge. I think comparisons between Predator and Open are important especially if Predator isn't delivering the significantly more challenging game play that it was set up to do. You were one of the players DDJ IIRC that wanted the challenge do you think that Predator will deliver that if no comparisons are made?
I think Cracker should be working on eliminating those indirect advantages so that you and other Predator players get what they want. Or whats the point of a Predator class?

 

[Txurce]

Originally posted by SirPleb
About the Open vs. Predator tech pace, I think there are a few factors to consider:

Open: The human can go to war earlier and go for an earlier Palace jump, thus reaching a four turn research pace sooner.

I don't see why the human can go to war and so jump the palace earlier in Open than Predator. From the QSC maps that have been posted, there was plenty of room for peaceful expansion in both games. If anything, I would guess that because AI borders were likely to encroach sooner in Predator games, Predator players are more likely to war sooner without having to over-reach. But the bigger point is that by the time either an Open or Predator player hit borders to the south and east, the player should have enough of a city base to launch a successful swords-vs-sticks war against either the Germans or the Minoans (no matter how large Predator made either civ).

One of the few comparisons that could be made between Open and Predator games is how the Predator factor affects the tech pace in the QSC period and immediately afterward. Players in both categories researched at the same clip, yet Predator players entered the Middle Ages noticeably sooner than Open players. I don't see what could account for this discrepancy in games with similar human expansion, other than early AI growth and contact in Predator.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by samildanach
As far as I am aware players are choosing to play predator over open because they want more of challenge.

I think so too.

I think comparisons between Predator and Open are important especially if Predator isn't delivering the significantly more challenging game play that it was set up to do.

Who said that it isn't more challenging? I think it clearly is (although the difference isn't as large as I'd like). I don't see that faster (or slower) space race times has anything to do with the level of challenge. It's perfectly consistent to me that the Predator settings are somewhat more challenging, but also allow a faster space race. Playing a Deity level game would be even more challenging, but would allow an even faster space race, for that matter.

The higher difficulty level of the game doesn't imply more time to achieve a specified victory condition. So what?

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
DaviddesJ - I can only go from what happened in my game, but I was struggling to build units to war with, not struggling to find opponents to kill. If Open players were in that position I can understand the concern - I just have difficulty imagining it, that's all.

Well, for example, in my game France declared war on me fairly early, and sent a substantial number of warriors to "attack" me, through Germany. These presented no real threat, they were just free promotion potential.

In general, if the AI has more units to "attack" me, I think that's generally a benefit. They come traipsing up, and I can kill them off as they come. On the other hand, more fortified defenders in cities that I want to capture, and particularly if they are vet units because the AI had extra resources to build barracks, are annoying.

 

[samildanach]

Yes faster space race victories are consistent with increases in difficulty level but do faster space race victories at predator reflect increased difficulty over open. That question can only be answered after the results have been analysed?

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Txurce
I don't see why the human can go to war and so jump the palace earlier in Open than Predator. From the QSC maps that have been posted, there was plenty of room for peaceful expansion in both games.

With the large map setting and with a commercial Civ, I wouldn't consider it a good move to put the second Palace or FP any closer than the heart of one of the rival territories. There isn't a good location I can see which doesn't require war to capture it, at either level. But the Open class could successfully capture a good second Palace/FP location fairly early in the game. Not much chance of that for Predator with all the extra AI units and their faster early production.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by SirPleb

With the large map setting and with a commercial Civ, I wouldn't consider it a good move to put the second Palace or FP any closer than the heart of one of the rival territories. There isn't a good location I can see which doesn't require war to capture it, at either level. But the Open class could successfully capture a good second Palace/FP location fairly early in the game. Not much chance of that for Predator with all the extra AI units and their faster early production.

I agree with this, but conversely, with the large map and commercial civ, there's plenty of productive development and growth that can be done in the original core. I don't think there's a huge advantage from getting the second core going early (as opposed to putting all resources into growing the first core as quickly as possible---by the time the first core is really mature, it should be possible to establish space for a second core, even at Predator).

The one thing I'm not sure about is how hard it is to do an effective palace jump (without leader) if the second core is mature. With lots of large, close-packed cities in the initial core, is it hard to get the foreign city to qualify as the new capital (given that its population maxes out at 12)? I'm sure it's possible, but it doesn't seem really easy to me. I don't know from experience because I've never done a palace jump (I've always just built out the first core around my capital, and then built FP in the second core with a leader).

 

[cracker]

In some ways, I would characterize this debate about Predator -vs- Open as being similar to the option of staying in your seat to land in a comemrcial airliner or taking that little know option of taking a parachte out of your carryone luggage as asking them to open the galley access door to just let you out early as the plane flies over your house.

If you offered the parachute option to all the passengers, how many would take you up on the option??

Who will get home sooner? Sorta depends on which set of RNG's are most favorable on that day.

The principle differences long term between the predator and the open class will be self-selection based. The intent of the predator game will not alway be to make the game harder in a linear fashion but in some cases to increase the risks of making mistakes or doing things that would be more recoverable at lower lower difficulties.

The naval movement change in this GOTM is an example. I personally believe from the testing that something of this nature should be generally implemented with a better set of adjustments to the unit movement stats. However, implementing this change in the Open class might well have added screams and squeals to the process that would have been both unnecessary and uncalled for. The fact that something was different from normal created just one more opportunity to make mistakes or to fail to consider specific issues that were not part of the game that the Open and Conquest class players had to deal with.

Also in the Predator class game, the AI unit cost of the Gallic swordsman was reduced from 50 to 40 shields which I firmly believe is a minimum sdjustment necessary to get the AI close to playing that unit on a functional level. I did not bypass the upgrade/obsolete path through the Mace unit for the Gallic swordsman, but I also feel that this is required to remedy the current disabled status for the celts that was produced by the inadequate tesing and development cycle for the PTW units and civs. (note that none of these concepts should ever be interpreted to apply to these features as played by the human.) Revealing this balance issue in advance woul have been inappropriately disclosing too much info about the game. In retrospect, I am not sure it has much effect on the game without fixing the upgrade path discrepencey issues.

I am convinced from testing, that the AI does not know it has a UU. The factors surrounding the UU just happen to effect the balance once those UU elements accidentally stumble into the game.

 

[Moonsinger]

Are you guys glad that I'm one of the few if not the last qualified Predator left in the Open Division? If I make any of you uncomfortable, please just say a word and I will move up a level.

About this game, It seems tougher than the GOTM20. There are just too many hills and mountains which take our non-industrial civ a long time to build road, mine, irrigate, or whatever.

 

[cracker]

Moonsinger,

In some ways you can look at the Conquest class bonuses and then decide if you think I understand the game well enough to pick out the key issues even before you begin to play the game.

This was only our second game with the bonus system in place and you never know if the bonuses are important or if they might be placebos designed to make you feel good about yourself so you will play better or if they really have any value.

In this game, the conquest class players got three extra workers (so a total of 4 workers) to begin the game. In retrospect, how important do you feel that I was telling you that worker tasking would probably be in this game??

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
About this game, It seems tougher than the GOTM20. There are just too many hills and mountains which take our non-industrial civ a long time to build road, mine, irrigate, or whatever.

One of my reason for wars this game was to keep capturing AI workers. Yes, it was brutal how many workers were needed to get a mountain with food bonus going.

At one point in this game I was spending 15 minutes a turn on worker actions. I think that should give you an idea how many workers I had.

 

[samildanach]

Are you guys glad that I'm one of the few if not the last qualified Predator left in the Open Division? If I make any of you uncomfortable, please just say a word and I will move up a level.

I think since you're a gurl Moonsinger you are safer in open rather than Predator where all those mean old civ jocks hang out. You can talk about the latest summer fashions with me and the rest of the Open Class pansies. I just think that their obssession with the new Predator challenges is well....just....SO...IMMATURE!

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by cracker
In some ways you can look at the Conquest class bonuses and then decide if you think I understand the game well enough to pick out the key issues even before you begin to play the game.

I think you had given out too many clues before the game even begin but some people (me included) have failed to recognize those clues this time. Honestly, I didn't really pay much attention to the Pregames Discussion thread this time (because I was too busy in RL but that was no excuse) and I didn't even know about those workers bonus in the Conquest Class until you just mentioned about them (a few minutes ago to be exact). However, this is one mistake that I won't make again in my future game.

---

LKendter,

By the end of the Middle Age, I did have a lot of workers too. I manually directed all of them because that was the only way to get them working correctly; therefore, it took me at least 15 mintues per turn on worker actions too.

---

samildanach,

Are you are a girl too? Otherwise, it would seem weird talking about the latest summer fashions.

 

[Txurce]

Originally posted by cracker
In some ways, I would characterize this debate about Predator -vs- Open as being similar to the option of staying in your seat to land in a comemrcial airliner or taking that little know option of taking a parachte out of your carryone luggage as asking them to open the galley access door to just let you out early as the plane flies over your house.

The intent of the predator game will not alway be to make the game harder in a linear fashion but in some cases to increase the risks of making mistakes or doing things that would be more recoverable at lower lower difficulties.

The naval movement change in this GOTM is an example... The fact that something was different from normal created just one more opportunity to make mistakes or to fail to consider specific issues that were not part of the game that the Open and Conquest class players had to deal with.

I did not bypass the upgrade/obsolete path through the Mace unit for the Gallic swordsman, but I also feel that this is required to remedy the current disabled status for the celts that was produced by the inadequate tesing and development cycle for the PTW units and civs.

Cracker, you were overdue in this debate. I would fiddle with your metaphor and say that any passenger even considering the option in question is already an experienced parachutist.

Your elaboration on what Predator is about will help me make a better choice in the future - I had presumed that everything about it would be harder. I should have known better, since I did grasp from the start that the adjusted naval movement wasn't a handicap, so much as an increased opportunity - including one for error. I hope that this adjustment is carried over to future GOTMs at the predator level.

Sometimes lack of experience with PTW adversely affects my game (on a minor level). In GOTM19, I held off invading the Kelts until I had knights for fear of their (non-existent) UU. I'm all in favor of balancing the game like this.

 

[Smirk]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ

...and the (lack of) exact comparison between them is immaterial.

This had been said a few times but this is not true. All the games are posted on the same score list inviting comparisons.

 

[alexman]

After a peaceful Ancient Age, the Greek Monarchy entered the Middle Ages in 690 B.C. We had the good fortune of getting Feudalism for free, just as we were about to upgrade our Warriors to attack Germany. As we found out, 23 Medieval Infantry units can do quite a bit of damage against German spearmen!

The attack on Germany was slow but sure, and in 310 B.C. during the battle for Hamburg, the Great Leader Pyrrhus emerged. Rather than constructing a new Palace in Berlin, Pyrrhus waited until 170 B.C. and built Leonardo’s Workshop in instead. That same year, Athens was temporarily abandoned, and the capital was transferred to Munich. By 150 B.C. the last of the German cities was destroyed. But rather than sitting on its laurels, the Greek infantry, now joined by some captured catapults and Hoplites, pressed towards Russia.

A victorious Hoplite gave Greece their Golden Age in 10 A.D. with two empire cores set up. During the next three centuries, Greece produced a horde of almost 100 horsemen, continued its infantry attack on Russia, while researching at full speed towards Military tradition.

So while the same infantry that defeated the Germans was still fighting the Russians in the North, Greece discovered Military tradition, and in 230 A.D. declared war on the Minoans. The poor Minoan Peltasts were no match for the Greek Cavalry, and in 270 the Minoans were left with one city on an island.

In 320 A.D. it was the turn of the Ottomans to feel the might of the Greek mounted hordes, and by 370 A.D., with most of the Ottoman Empire being under Greek occupation, there was no stopping us. The Celts were next.

450 A.D. was a momentous year. Our slow-moving armies, still moving east through the remains of Russia, met with the mighty Cavalry army moving west. Russia, the Celts, and the Ottomans were all destroyed, and the Greek Empire spanned the entire Northern hemisphere.

Since our Golden Age, even in Monarchy, technology progressed at a 4-turn rate with loads of cash to spare, and the rest of the world contributed only Monotheism and half of Theology. Greece gifted Education to every nation in the World, hoping that someone would discover Banking before Greece discovered Astronomy, Physics, Magnetism, and Gravity, but no such luck. Greece entered the Industrial Age with no help since Theology, in 480 A.D.