*Spoiler2* - Gotm21-Melee - End of Medieval Age

[Txurce]

Alan, your learning curve, as measured by the amount of green on your map at 950AD, is pretty impressive. It's tough to remember that, admittedly, when new players like Yurian and oinland arrive with their pedals pressed firmly to the metal.

 

[denyd]

Edit: Open PTW 1.21 (thanks for the reminder AlanH)

Because of the weird timing of spoiler # 1’s ending, I’ll recap the middle ages my topic:

At the end of Spoiler # 2 it’s 980 AD and the war with Germany is winding down.

Wonders:
Russia got Sun Tzu & Bach
Persia got Sistine Chapel
I got the rest
I used my only GL to move my palace to Munich (W of Berlin on the lake)

World Powers:
I am #1 on the charts with 1415 followed by Ottoman (1151), Russia (1139) and Zululand (1116) and Spain (1109). I’m #1 in land, population, GNP and productivity. Only Russia has a larger army. I am ahead my Magnetism on a couple of AI and a lot more on the bottom feeders.

Weaklings:
Germany is down to 1 city on the peninsula south of Ottoman, and I’ve got a boat of 4 cavalry headed that way. The Minoans have been living on a galley off my coast since 330AD (must be kind of seasick by now). Rome and Atlantis haven’t got past gunpowder yet. Egypt & Hittites are just ahead of them.

Resources:
I have 3 of each (iron, horses, SP) resource and wine, cotton, incense enough to trade around and a single gem source for my own use.

RNG Factors:
I got a couple of bad breaks that have made the game a little slower than expected. First, my iron near Athens expired in 730BC, second, only 1 GL so far despite 2 long wars with nearly all veteran troops, third, a very early GA beginning in 430BC while still in despotism. Unlike some of the other players, the Pyramids weren’t nearby. Minos got the Great Lighthouse instead. No unusual military victories / defeats. A strange twist of allies occurred during the beginning of the war with Germany, as I paid France 300g to ally vs Germany in 830AD and she attacks both Germany and ME the next turn!! I got Russia (already allied vs Germany) to ally vs France and picked up 2 ex-German now-French cities in the process.

Overall situation:
I’ll be removing Germany very soon. They got Egypt to join in the war so, I’ll take their only city on the continent then accept peace later. Babylon is also in a phony war with me thanks to Germany. I’ll take peace when they offer it. Currently a monarchy, but as soon as Newton’s is built (about 5 more turns), I’ll switch to Democracy.

Future plans:
If I have time, I plan to advance through the IA as the tech leader, trying to stay out of wars until military beyond cavalry are available. In the modern age, build a large quick strike force and remove Russia, Ottoman, Celts and French (in that order) from the main island. If short on time, I’ll skip the war and build a spaceship as fast as possible. I know that’s probably the way to get the best score, but I haven’t taken a game late into the modern age in a long time and that would be a nice change. I might even take a couple of other islands if time presents itself.

Cracker’s points:
The off continent Civ’s weren’t any tech help. I was able to user the Russians, French (pre-war) and Ottomans to advance my tech. I don’t expect to be able to get many required techs from them in the Industrial Ages. It seems like the off continent AI’s are stuck in a holding pattern. They don’t seem to be adding science, population or military. Only Persia, Spain and Carthage appear to be able to pose any future threats. The Peltast unit was a very worthy opponent, particularly when able to use the terrain for defense. It took MI to finally complete the conquering of Minos.



Edit: AlanH, except for you going after Ottoman and me taking out Otto, our games look very similar.

Edit: To Cracker & Co, thanks for a great game!!

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Sir Bugsy
How did you recenter your world map? That drove me crazy all game.

Yes, it's VERY annoying, isn't it. I found it made it quite difficult to navigate around the borders of my region. But some time soon I hope the sun will never set on the Greek empire, it will then be a problem no matter where the minimap is centered.

Unfortunately I have no magic that makes recentering happen in-game. I just used Photoshop to duplicate the map and then recrop it. Oh, and I had to retouch a couple of edge cities which aren't painted as full squares.

I felt it worked better in my post, and it actually gave me a better perpective on what I've achieved so far - I need all the help I can get!

@Txurce: Thanks for your encouragement. I see your name is in the list of submitted games. I hope to join you there, and look forward to reading all about it in the other spoilers. On with the fray!

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by denyd
Overall situation:
I’ll be removing Germany very soon. They got Egypt to join in the war so, I’ll take their only city on the continent then accept peace later.

Thanks for reminding me - I'd forgotten that I delared war on Eqypt during my Ottoman campaign. Well - they had a settler/warrior pair obstructing a road my Cavalry needed to get down, and they had three untidy and badly sited cities on the continent. So I blew the settler pair away and cleared up their mess on MY continent as a footnote to my Ottoman campaign. Sued for peace later and got peanuts, of course.

Edit: AlanH, except for you going after Ottoman and me taking out Otto, our games look very similar.

Yes, except it sounds like I plan to deal with Otto next but you are going to try to live in peace with Suleyman?

Edit: To Cracker & Co, thanks for a great game!!

What he said !!!!!

 

[DaviddesJ]

PTW 1.21 Predator

Middle Ages in 875BC.
Industrial Ages in 340AD.
Spoiler #1 post

I decided to play for a fast space race. Partly because of the tournament, partly because I haven't done it before, partly because I'm bored with early conquest, partly because early conquest would be very tedious on this huge map.

So I played to research as fast as possible, learning only mandatory techs (after Republic), and trading all of my techs as I discover them to any AIs who can pay a reasonable amount for them. I also carefully triggered my Golden Age the turn after entering Republic, to give myself a big research boost, and also used the GA to build libraries/universities/aquaducts/marketplaces/harbors to power up my research even after the GA ends. I was trying to simultaneously fight a war wtih Germany, but focusing on infrastructure meant I didn't build enough followup troops for the war, so I had to call it off and regroup and then come back for a second round later. Which worked out ok, although it left time tight for building up a second core in German territory before entering the Industrial Ages. I hope to continue 4-turn research in the Industrial Ages, but it might be tight. I did get a leader in the Second German War which went for FP in Berlin; if I never got a leader I would have been quite stuck, as I had no good setup for a palace jump. I had lots and lots of elites, though, so the leader wasn't unexpected (I'm a bit disappointed to only get one, but I don't think I'll really need more).

Details:

875BC: Enter Middle Ages. Get Engineering as my free tech.

825BC: Hook up iron.

825BC-750BC: Upgrade 20 warriors (mostly vets).

690BC: Minoans join France in alliance against me.

670BC: Discover Republic. Only 3 turns anarchy.

650BC: Egypt joins alliance against me.

630BC: I make peace with France. I've killed most of the troops they sent, but no leader.

610BC: Anarchy ends. I deliberately leave vet hoplite defending my city from Minoans unfortified, to encourage attack.

590BC: My plan works! Minoans attack hoplite and lose. Golden Age! My army has 23 swordsmen and 6 hoplites. War on Germany!

530BC: Germany counterattacks ineffectually, with horsemen (they have no iron). They are out of anarchy and into republic, now. Making progress against Germany, but my troops are slow and their lands are vast. Also, lots of mountains make attacking unpleasant.

490BC: Peace with Egypt.

470BC: Discover Monotheism.

370BC: Discover Theology.

350BC: Learn Feudalism, from France.

330BC: War weariness triggered.

270BC: Discover Education.

250BC: War against Germany stalls: Berlin is size 8, defended by fortified vet spearmen, and I don't have enough swordsmen nearby to be confident of doing the job. I accept peace with Germany in exchange for 2 small cities. I'll regroup, and come back with medieval infantry. I have accumulated lots and lots of elite units, but no leader.

210BC: Golden Age ends (one turn before I was expecting; I guess I lose a turn when I trigger GA on defense).

170BC: Discover Astronomy.

130BC: Clear fog near volcano island, establish trade route with Atlantis. They supply Ivory and Wool. Entertainment at 0% from now on.

110BC: Several AIs have Chivalry.

70BC: Discover Banking.

50BC: Most AIs have Invention, one turn after I started studying it. I trade for Invention and switch to Gunpowder.

30AD: Discover Gunpowder.

110AD: Discover Chemistry.

150AD: 20 turns of peace end. War on Germany. My army is 10 swordsmen (9 elite), 8 vet knights, 12 medieval infantry (10 vet), 6 hoplites (3 elite). Advisor says I am "strong" compared to everyone except Persia and Atlantis.

190AD: Discover Physics.

210AD: I get a leader! War weariness is back, but I have plenty of luxuries so it's manageable.

230AD: Rush forbidden palace in Berlin.

260AD: Discover Theory of Gravity.

280AD: Germany destroyed.

290AD: Several AIs have Navigation, which I trade for.

300AD: Discover Magnetism.

320AD: I build Leonardo's Workshop (first wonder of the Middle Ages).

330AD: I rush lots of universities and other improvements, to boost my research capacity as much as possible for the Industrial Ages.

340AD: Russia demands Wines; I just give it to them (they are paying me plenty of gpt anyway). Discover Metallurgy. Enter Industrial Ages.

 

[ltcoljt]

It seems the the predator class players are running a much quicker tech pace than the open class.

Edit: I was skiming some posts and noted that Sir Pleb referenced an AI bonus on the predator level. I missed this somewhere but it may explain why the predator players are moving faster than the open class. Well, I'll send my open class game to the recycle bin and wait for next month. I'll have to be more careful reading so that I can determine which class to play in the future.

 

[Txurce]

Originally posted by ltcoljt


Edit: I was skiming some posts and noted that Sir Pleb referenced an AI bonus on the predator level.

The AI civs began with the deity-level starting-unit and no-unit-costs bonuses.

They also had the overall galley movement rates adjusted to move slower on coastal tiles, and faster on ocean.

 

[Yndy]

Originally posted by ltcoljt
It seems the the predator class players are running a much quicker tech pace than the open class.
I missed this somewhere but it may explain why the predator players are moving faster than the open class.

It's actually the other side of the coin. All the AIs have a stronger start and thus are more difficeult to defeat. On the other side they develop faster thus research faster.

And it's actually that most good players started on predator this month.

 

[ltcoljt]

Yndy, yeah, the point is that if you are playing a game for the express purpose of getting a fast launch without worrying about score, the predator class game presents a better opportunity because the AI can contribute more in terms of research of core techs and gold. This is just an observation. I am sure that someone can say that I need to take a broader perspective.

I don't think it has anything to do with the strentgh of the players.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Bremp
Civ3 v1.29 Predator

In 610BC I gifted Republic too all the other civs, but the Romans, because the only had 3 cities.

I also traded Monotheism during my anarchy for 170gpt. In 210BC, I sold Theology for ~130gpt. I was saving cash and in 50BC I rushed 15 universities.

Wow. I think you got a lot more cash than I did, at this stage. I think maybe because you immediately gave Republic to all the other civs, while I only shared it with a couple right away. I think now that you had the right idea about giving it to everyone. I went back and forth over this, at the time.

On the other hand, I'm a few turns ahead of you at the close of the Middle Ages. But it sounds like you haven't had a Golden Age yet? And maybe your AIs are doing better than mine, and can help you more, going forward.

 

[samildanach]

I would still submit your game Itcoljt. I think that the two main factors that speed up AI tech rate at diety have not been included in Predator- the two turn maximum anarchy which basically gives all civs the religous civ advantage and the increased AI trade rate. On a large map that we had here, the extra settler in my view would not have helped to increase the rate at which they researched. Also the map wasnt exactly gold poor on open class- I played open and I was absolutely swimming in the stuff.
Although you may be right about the extra settler modifying the tech rate we wont know definitively unless you and other open class SS players submit and let Cracker analyse them.

Oh and P.S I think you need a bro.......

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by ltcoljt
Yndy, yeah, the point is that if you are playing a game for the express purpose of getting a fast launch without worrying about score, the predator class game presents a better opportunity because the AI can contribute more in terms of research of core techs and gold.

I think this is true (also think it was pretty obvious from the game announcement), but it's comparing apples with oranges. If you care about comparing yourself with other players, the right players to compare your open game with are other open games.
I think the open/predator comparison would be pretty meaningless anyway.

Of course, since you haven't posted your spoiler #1 or #2, it's hard to compare your game to anything.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by samildanach
On a large map that we had here, the extra settler in my view would not have helped to increase the rate at which they researched.

I disagree, I think it makes quite a bit of difference. Especially to how fast the AIs research in the Ancient Ages, and thus how fast you can get into the Middle Ages. Once they have filled up all of their territory, then the difference may gradually fade away (if you're giving them techs), but it's pretty big early on.

I don't see why it would be a "problem" for anyone that there's a difference, though. But Itcoljt seems to be easily annoyed.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by denyd
RNG Factors:
I got a couple of bad breaks that have made the game a little slower than expected. First, my iron near Athens expired in 730BC, second, only 1 GL so far despite 2 long wars with nearly all veteran troops, third, a very early GA beginning in 430BC while still in despotism.

I don't think an early GA counts as a "bad break" or a "RNG factor". It's something you can control.

The Peltast unit was a very worthy opponent, particularly when able to use the terrain for defense. It took MI to finally complete the conquering of Minos.

I had trouble conquering Germany, too (in my first push). Others have also reported a prolonged campaign. I think it's the terrain, even more than the units. One thing I found is that the AI often leaves its units sitting around outside of cities in small stacks, where I can easily pick them off. However, in this game, those small stacks were frequently on mountains The result was that sometimes I lost my sworsdman just trying to kill an archer. Or, at least, took so much damage that my attack lost momentum.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
I had trouble conquering Germany, too (in my first push). Others have also reported a prolonged campaign. I think it's the terrain, even more than the units. One thing I found is that the AI often leaves its units sitting around outside of cities in small stacks, where I can easily pick them off. However, in this game, those small stacks were frequently on mountains The result was that sometimes I lost my sworsdman just trying to kill an archer. Or, at least, took so much damage that my attack lost momentum.

Can you just fortify your swordmans on the mountain and wait for their achers to attack you instead?

 

[samildanach]

I disagree, I think it makes quite a bit of difference. Especially to how fast the AIs research in the Ancient Ages, and thus how fast you can get into the Middle Ages. Once they have filled up all of their territory, then the difference may gradually fade away (if you're giving them techs), but it's pretty big early on.

Well you played predator DDJ, I didn't, so you have better idea off the advantages/disadvantages. I still think he should submit his game though as once analysed may help Cracker develop more challenging Predator games.

I noticed from your game description that you had trouble getting a GL as well. This is where I think that the Predator class had an advantage generally ( although you didn't) over Open class as I went through both the Germans and the Minoans without getting one. I think with the AI predator bonuses I would have gotten more opportuinities to get one.

 

[hotrod0823]

I think with the AI predator bonuses I would have gotten more opportuinities to get one.

What does the bonuses have to do with the chances at a Great Leader? I was not in wars early because of the AI bonuses. They had many more units and stronger military. I had to remain more patient in my predator game because the AI was swimming with units.

hotrod

 

[CruddyLeper]

Predator 1.29

IIRC the chances of getting a GL depend on how many attacks you make with Elite units - it's a statistics crapshoot, but the basic factor depends on the human building units, not the AI...

I must admit, GL promotion was frustratingly low in my game until the very end. And the conquests I made were often close run things - the first war left me with a surplus of 7 Med Swords, the 2nd maybe 12 Knights. I started out with 50 Med Swords and 60 Kngihts - it wasn't a cakewalk.

Still, the post game analysis should show up a trend.

 

[samildanach]

I think you answered your own question Hotrod. The AIs were swimming with military units in your game-they weren't in mine therefore I had less opportuinities of a GL being generated in combat. So, you had to wait a few turns to get a big enough army -big deal. The fact is, that was under your control-I couldnt tell the AI to build more units for me to kill so I was screwed.

 

[SirPleb]

About the Open vs. Predator tech pace, I think there are a few factors to consider:

Open: The human can go to war earlier and go for an earlier Palace jump, thus reaching a four turn research pace sooner.

Open: Goody huts are likely to help the tech pace more. AIs will take longer to explore and find more of the huts later. Later huts improve the odds of getting "good" techs further down the tree.

Predator: The AIs research pace in the early game will be higher.

My feeling is that the best tech strategy for the two classes is different. In Open it might work best to trade aggressively, asap, to improve the chances for huts to help with deeper techs. In Predator I held back on some trades so that the AIs would pursue research paths I preferred. (E.g. I held back Alphabet early on so that the AIs would choose The Wheel, Masonry, Iron Working, etc as their next research instead of choosing Writing. Later on when I got Writing I gifted one AI all early techs but Alphabet to encourage them to go for Horseback Riding.)

I'm not sure which class has the best overall potential tech pace. I think one player would have to play both ways to find out. I do think it is possible that an Open game can reach the mid Middle Ages with a four turn tech pace sooner than a Predator game but it isn't certain either way in my mind.