Sprawling Suburbs

[NerfCothons]

It has always bothered me that as you enter the modern age a city's size is still dependent on local food production. By that logic the largest city in the United States should be somewhere in Nebraska. Rhye has done a great job with resource placement of dealing with that problem, but I still find myself caught when deciding how to improve surrounding terrain. Building the sprawling suburbs that seem appropriate surrounding my megalopolis actually decreases the size of the city. Therefore I would suggest allowing towns and villages to provide an additional food with the discovery of medicine. Medicine is the closest tech to representing technology's impact on sanitation, allowing greater numbers of people to live together in a condensed space. It also comes after biology which grants the same bonus to farms, which would therefore still provide superior food production just by a smaller margin.

If I knew how, I'd mod the game so that cottages grow based not on how long they've been worked, but their proximity to a city, and the size of that city. But that could be an utter catastrophe for gameplay even if implemented without problems. So I'll just consider the simpler change above.

That said, how would y'all feel about such a change?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

That is too early. I routinely research medicine before I go into "modern" techs. I would propose Ecology as the tech for what you're suggesting.

 

[star15389]

Sprawling Suburbs should be America's UP. +2 Commerce, +1 Hammer from Villages and Towns with Assembly Line and Combustion. It'll allow variability while creating a chance that America will dominate.

 

[civ_king]

toss in an extra food too and it's a deal
BTW call the Power "Suburbia"

 

[SadoMacho]

And give the current American UP to the Statue of Liberty.

It seem ilogical that towns would produce food, but the ideas behinde it are good. And why not have supermarkets build in the city give the +1 food for the towns in the big cross in stead of the current +1 food they give now?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Anybody remember the "supermarkets" in the former USSR? (I was there in the 1980's and boy did they suck)
So yes, if workshops give 1 food in communism, supermarkets should give 1 food in Universal suffrage per town.

 

[onedreamer]

I have just 3 things to say:

a) this would SERIOUSLY break game balances. It isn't a minor change.
b) your realism point of view is wrong IMHO, and your proposed solution is even wronger from the realism pow, since suburbs aren't farmlands and don't produce any food (they actually consume it). The current implementation is way more realistic than your proposal.
c) a suitable tech, the one that makes most sense, to change food distribution would be Refrigeration, which already does that through the supermarket. It could be changed to be more realistic (mainly I am thinking at food transportation) but if realism is what we're looking for, then it should be done in another way.

 

[Deego3]

The easy way to balance this is to make farms produce Commerce. But then you would have to give bonuses to all the other improvements...

Why dont we just make a "suburbs" building?

 

[ambassoon]

Onedreamer makes a good point about refrigeration. And Nerfcothons is right, food production in the modern age should not be limited to the surrounding region of the city. But one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the corporation factor. Some corporations do provide a food bonus, and in all likelihood, it was corporations plus refrigeration that allowed mega cities to rely on imported food. What if corporations provided a huge food bonus, something like %25 or%40? That way, it might better reflect reality. The towns idea isn't too bad, but that might eliminate the need for farms at all in the game in the modern era. And that certainly isn't realistic.

 

[Lone Wolf]

For some reason, in RFC I always see corporations founded in the cities of completely third-rate nations like Inca.

 

[civ_king]

Onedreamer makes a good point about refrigeration. And Nerfcothons is right, food production in the modern age should not be limited to the surrounding region of the city. But one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the corporation factor. Some corporations do provide a food bonus, and in all likelihood, it was corporations plus refrigeration that allowed mega cities to rely on imported food. What if corporations provided a huge food bonus, something like %25 or%40? That way, it might better reflect reality. The towns idea isn't too bad, but that might eliminate the need for farms at all in the game in the modern era. And that certainly isn't realistic.

It doesn't, because farms give 2-3 food (can't quite remember) while towns would give only one, and towns take lets see, 10+20+40=70, so 35 turns minimum and more like 70 really

 

[Wessel V1]

I don't agree on this, towns already are the improvement you want to have if the conditions are right. A grassland tile can become a town, without any supporting (farm) tiles. So, except for perhaps a watermill with the right civics, it's the most rewarding improvement. With the bonusses you want to give towns, they can support themselves on a plains tile, or even grassland tile combined with a plains hill. Sugar plantations were in my eyes already underpowered compared to towns, but they still gave 1 extra food. Now that we want to take that small advantage away, it wouldn't make any sense at all to build plantations.

And, if it's really the size of the metropolis that is important, then RFC has already pretty much solved this. Chicago can grow beyond size 40, which is ~20 million inhabitants, much more than Chicago and it's suburbs have combined. I know, this is only one example, and yes, there is no city that can grow larger AFAIK with the possible exception of Buto in Egypt, but we should not forget that a city with 12 population illustrates a city with 1 million inhabitants. And to maximize the city's value in the game, most cities grow much larger than that, since a fat cross has 21 tiles in it, so basically any city in Europe can grow to size 21 without resources nor farms.

But if it's just the aesthetic value, this can be edited too, with XML.

Just my opinion.

 

[civ_king]

I don't agree on this, towns already are the improvement you want to have if the conditions are right. A grassland tile can become a town, without any supporting (farm) tiles. So, except for perhaps a watermill with the right civics, it's the most rewarding improvement. With the bonusses you want to give towns, they can support themselves on a plains tile, or even grassland tile combined with a plains hill. Sugar plantations were in my eyes already underpowered compared to towns, but they still gave 1 extra food. Now that we want to take that small advantage away, it wouldn't make any sense at all to build plantations.

And, if it's really the size of the metropolis that is important, then RFC has already pretty much solved this. Chicago can grow beyond size 40, which is ~20 million inhabitants, much more than Chicago and it's suburbs have combined. I know, this is only one example, and yes, there is no city that can grow larger AFAIK with the possible exception of Buto in Egypt, but we should not forget that a city with 12 population illustrates a city with 1 million inhabitants. And to maximize the city's value in the game, most cities grow much larger than that, since a fat cross has 21 tiles in it, so basically any city in Europe can grow to size 21 without resources nor farms.

But if it's just the aesthetic value, this can be edited too, with XML.

Just my opinion.

actually the Europeans are generally too bunched up to have their 20 BFC

 

[NerfCothons]

Food as a concept within the game is the symbol used to represent urban growth just as hammers are just a symbol used to represent industrial productivity. It is true for much of human history the availability of food in the area surrounding a city was a primary force behind urban growth, but by the modern age that just isn't the case. So I don't want to get hung up on the notion that houses don't 'make' food. communist water wheels and what appear to be wind energy turbines don't make food either. To that end, how does a town on a grassland produce any extra food than a town on plains if any food at all? It's an illogical system on the whole, but it's what we've got so we've got to work with it.

So I'll take Sado's suggestion and tweak it just a little. The same bonus except attached to the mass-transit building. It's such a boring building in game as it is, but it suggests a connection between the city and the suburbs. With a mass transit system (or a ton of highways a la Los Angeles, but that's beside the point) one no longer has to choose between living in the 'fat cross' and working in the city.

As to corporations, in their current incarnation they are not adequate to represent the modern distribution of food. I have to chose between being able to eat fish or wheat? And where's the beef? It also suggests that the first person who figures out how to transport fish over a distance greater than 3 squares has a permanent monopoly on the process and can keep it to himself as long as he sees fit. Additionally, the only civs that can really get corporations to work well for them are those with large empires with access to large quantities of the right resources. I'm currently working on a mod-mod with a big corporation overhaul in it, but as RFC stands corporations just don't cut it.

I'd be open to other ideas though, mainly I want a solution that feels right, that results in modern empires with huge cities surrounded by sprawling suburbs, however we get there.

 

[civ_king]

can we make the resource/yield increased? because it is almost impossible to have very many, and can we also have the amount of resources unlimited? btw can free trade also give part of its yeild in food?

 

[dragodon64]

Well, I don't really have a solution, but a theoretical concept that may work. It has two parts, food sources and cottage-town yields

Suburbs represent higher population density than farms, mines, etc, which should allow more people to live/work there, increasing yields. Therefore more than 1 citizen should be able to be stored in bigger suburbs, and they should give larger yields. Up to a certain amount of citizens can be assigned to work each suburb-type improvement; using at least 1 will give you the base tile yield and you will get the improvement yield x number of workers like such:

Cottage- +1, up to 1 citizen
Hamlet- +1, +2, up to 2 citizens
Village- +1, +3, up to 3 citizens
Town- +2, +4, up to 4 citizens

As you can see, a fully worked town on grassland will produce 2 8 16, which is pretty powerful for 4 citizens. However it will leave a deficit of 6 food to do so, meaning another food source must be employed. Now either you could spam farms all around to the one town, or you could have realistic urban/rural areas.

This idea definitely won't be coming in CIV, but what I'm thinking is a system of internal imports/exports by which you could have 50% of a tiles yield shipped to a particular city by which it is not currently being worked for a small fee (1gpt?), double if the tile is worked by no city.

So the two main uses would be:
City A has lots of villages/ towns and needs a lot of food to support them (New York surrounded by Bos-Wash) and needs food, so City B surrounded by farms (New Orleans) works several post Bio farms and "ships" them to New York, which gets 4/2=2/turn extra without spending any workers to get it.
Some tile is outside the BFC of any city, and its not worth getting another city for this, so have it import to a city which can use its imports

The main advantage of this system is specialization. I do have several uncertainties like the bast cost (can't be too high) and whether it should vary by distance and how.
If this was to happen in CIV, I would imagine it becoming possible with Currency.

Not likely to happen, but just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[TDK]

There is also the Great Merchant that simulates quite well the more limited capability of the earlier ages(Ægyptian wheat to Rome etc.).
IMO the most powerful gp to settle and for a good reason.

 

[SadoMacho]

How about a great farmer unit that can be build only with food and gives +2 food as superspecialist in an other city? tech: refrigiration

 

[onedreamer]

the solutions that make more sense IMO without breaking balances that have been accurately drawn are the following 2:

- food transportation from one city to another (it was possible in previous versions of Civ or CTP can't remember)
- supermarket bonus changed to provide food for each food resource (instead of health for animal food), for example +1 food for each resource type.


The last one though is very similar to how corporations are already working.
But the real thing I don't understand is why are we talking of this change ? What are the reasons to change a well balanced and tested system ? The only reasons I've read so far are in the OP and are highly opinable.
- he is somehow suggesting that metropolis do not depend mainly on local food production but import most of food supply from who knows where. The fat cross of a city corresponds roughly to 400km diameter, a city and its fat cross represent the size of most american STATES, they aren't just one city or metropolis.
- towns (improvement) aren't suburbs but .... towns. IE the minor towns in that region compared to the main city. Suburbs are represented by the game graphical engine with the increased size of cities compared to population. A 24 pop city is huge on the map and its suburbs end up being on the squares adiacent to the city square.
- cities or towns do not provide excess food and should not do it the game if it is realism we're aiming at. The town improvement provides 2 food, which are enough to feed the worker on that tile, hence saying that the town improvement decreases the size of the city is just wrong.

 

[ambassoon]

dragodon64: So the two main uses would be:
City A has lots of villages/ towns and needs a lot of food to support them (New York surrounded by Bos-Wash) and needs food, so City B surrounded by farms (New Orleans) works several post Bio farms and "ships" them to New York, which gets 4/2=2/turn extra without spending any workers to get it.
Some tile is outside the BFC of any city, and its not worth getting another city for this, so have it import to a city which can use its imports

I love this idea. Realism, and functionality.

Onedreamer:- supermarket bonus changed to provide food for each food resource (instead of health for animal food), for example +1 food for each resource type.

A mix of the first idea and this one would be perfect

Onedreamer:- he is somehow suggesting that metropolis do not depend mainly on local food production but import most of food supply from who knows where. The fat cross of a city corresponds roughly to 400km diameter, a city and its fat cross represent the size of most american STATES, they aren't just one city or metropolis.

But most food comes from outside our states, roughly %80 on average and probably %90 or more for states like New Jersey

Onedreamer:- towns (improvement) aren't suburbs but .... towns. IE the minor towns in that region compared to the main city. Suburbs are represented by the game graphical engine with the increased size of cities compared to population. A 24 pop city is huge on the map and its suburbs end up being on the squares adiacent to the city square.

But if towns really mimic real towns, then they would add population. But they don't. Which is why dragodon64 had such a good idea of having towns contribute population.