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Spread of religion really that useful?

Torodeboro

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
95
Location
Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Sometimes I wonder if it is really worth it to expend all the faith you have into missionaries and great prophets to spread your religion. In fact if you have ceremonial burying you spend 'thousands' of faith just for a few happiness while you could also have saved that faith for religious building or the purchase of great people with in my eyes more sure and often bigger benefits.
Besides this if the AI converts one of your cities it is often nice that you can build the religious building of his religion.

So, I am sometimes wondering how worthy it really is to spred your religion just for some happiness and gold, not always even certain if you win 'the religious war' and get what you aimed for..
 
In G&K it really wasn't all that useful, in my opinion. In the new update, religion weighs a lot more since piety can be unlocked much earlier, religions in general start earlier.

In the later phases of the game, religions can hold key points because they give some AIs a reason to love you more and adopting a world religion can be achieved through the World Congress. While of course if you simply have a crazy amount of delegates you can make it whatever you want, you can't always have that scenario.

If you don't spread your religion early/fast enough, other religions WILL do it and if you neglect spreading yours it will overtake your holy city.

Another important factor is that city states may ask you to spread religion to them, an easy way of getting a bunch of influence.

My answer is Yes, it is worth it, faith is free (outside of maintenance for shrines/temples) and using it is the only logical thing to do with it.
 
The prime reason for me is that if I don't invest in cheap missionaries now, I'll have to invest in more expensive missionarys and prophets later , when my lands would be surrounded by infidels. Even with CB nerf, you still get +1 happiness per 2spreads (1 missionary). Tithe hasn't been nefred. Of course it's a tradeoff if you can manage to snatch a religious building belief, but it's not always the case, and I'll always prefer byuing missionaries to waiting for GP's to spawn and... yeah, nothing to do with them apart the second one.
 
There are benefits if city states have your religion. If the AI has your religion. There are some of the beliefs which can help you quite a lot.

With the right beliefs, you end up with a high amount of faith post-Industrial, helping your victory come much faster.

But I can live without it just fine.
 
I usually do not get more than 1 Missionary. That should be enough to get the religion in 3 more of my cities. Then with 4 times the pressure and now additional pressure from caravans the stone should start to roll.
 
What I struggle with is, why spread your religion and it's great bonuses to someone else if they just get your great bonuses too? Shouldn't it be better to just stay isolationist in regards to your religion?

If they dont have your religion they will have someone elses , which will give a similiar level buff .
If they have your religion you get a bonus from your founder bonus. If they have someone elses religion that person will get the payoff
 
If they dont have your religion they will have someone elses , which will give a similiar level buff .
If they have your religion you get a bonus from your founder bonus. If they have someone elses religion that person will get the payoff

Ohh so only you ever benefit from the Founder bonus? That was something I missed...
 
If you don't spread your religion to your pagan neighbours, other will. Better to have +1 gold per 4 followers in their cities for yourself than let some other AI have his +2 gold per city or whatever, even if it means they'll have your carefully picked pantheon and followers instead of randoms AI ones.
 
Honestly, I have to agree with the OP. I welcome the AI spreading their religion to me. I save up my faith for buildings and GP which works out nicely. Having the same religion as your neighbors allows for tourism and diplomacy boost. So you can spend tons of faith on missionaries trying to battle the AI to get your religion on top or just accept theirs and spend your faith on buildings and GP. The only downside is you don't get the founder belief but you will likely get to choose your own Pantheon bonus and enjoy that for a long time before the AI starts spreading their religion.

If you play a civ like Arabia that can spread religion easily, that's a different story.
 
So, what you're saying is you should do a cost-benefit analysis before investing in a religion? Yep. If the benefits look like they outweigh the costs, onward to a wave of religious fervor. If not, invest elsewhere.

The hard part is telling the difference early in the game. If your bias is that it's rarely/never worth it, then you will always convince yourself that it's not worth it. QED.
 
I am now a huge fan of messiah. Since the games are going longer, you can use late game prophets to convert all the Holy cities over to you. Its nice to know that no matter how big the others get, you will always be able to nuetralize them later.
 
It is very strategy dependant but is extremely useful and is typically underestimated by players, esp. at lower difficulties. It does happen to be slightly weaker at lower difficulties because AIs dont REX nearly as much but is still quite useful.

If I can achieve a faith generating pantheon on any peaceful victory game, my strategy is almost always the same:
1. Take PILGRIMAGE founder bonus
2. Take an enhancer bonus that increases the passive pressure (aka RT/IP or, in desperation, the -30% missionary cost or the doubled pressure to CSs)
3. Spend all or almost all of my faith from immediately after I enhanced the religion up until shortly before industrial to spread the religion starting with immediate CSs and neighbor civs that down have a religion yet (typically, unless they generated a lot of FPT, I let the external pressure convert my satellite cities).

What this leads to:
Around T150 when I pop into industrial era, pilgrimage accounts for 20-50 FPT for my empire and my overall pressure is large enough that it should stay around that level until the end of the game(on deity). So more or less, this strategy, allows me to purchase an extra 2-4 great people from faith that I wouldn't have had otherwise. On lower difficulties, having a strong outgoing pressure means most newly founded cities by the AI will get immediately converted and you will passively gain more and more benefits from your founder bonus as the game progresses.

It also contributes to my tourism to the civs sharing my religion if I go cultural, helps my diplomacy with some civs when their cities convert from raw pressure (as opposed from via missionary/prophet action) which can really only be achieved if you have multiple cities pressuring.

It is a little harder to dominate religion as it was in GnK. Back then, I've had OCC games on deity where I would convert 45-50 cities out of 55-60 cities on the map and get 100FPT from pilgrimage...

In GnK, warmongerers also typically needed the happiness gains from Ceremonial Burial. It was nerfed by half now so it's not nearly as potent I would probably use church property instead.

Last but least, an underestimated combo is to pair the +15 resting point with CSs+pledge+patronage policy and take the enhancer bonus that doubles the pressure to CSs. For so long as each CS is within 10 tiles of ~3 or so other CSs, you can probably "hold on" to most of those cities naturally because it is as though they would receive the pressure from 6 cities. This means any other completed quest will grant you an ally for a long time and that you could afford to withdraw a pledge if you were at risk of losing good relationship with an AI and still climb back to 35 resting points and receive the friendly benefits.
 
Deau - I was doing that at the end of G&K and taking both IP/RT if I was Byzantium. Divine Inspiration is also nice if you are wonder spamming instead of Pilgrimage.
 
I never bothered with spreading religion in G&K even though I do like to get one. I do, however, like to spread if I chose Initiation Rites - but only to cities and city-states that do not have an another religion. I save my faith for more important things - great persons and buildings.
 
So, what you're saying is you should do a cost-benefit analysis before investing in a religion? Yep. If the benefits look like they outweigh the costs, onward to a wave of religious fervor. If not, invest elsewhere.

The hard part is telling the difference early in the game. If your bias is that it's rarely/never worth it, then you will always convince yourself that it's not worth it. QED.

Haha, well put.

It comes down to whether I get a very good/fitting pantheon that I want to keep. If I do, then I get a religion to synergize with my play-style, spread it to my cities, and keep it there w/ no spread. If on top of that, one of my neighbors is religious, and another neighbor didn't get the Piety wonder, I'll spread it to get better diplo and more benefit from my founder's belief, instead of the extra late game GP.

If I don't have a particularly great/useful pantheon, and my neighbor's religion looks decent, I'll actively sell my shrine after the pantheon hits since early game gold > early game faith if you don't want a religion (unless of course, this religion has faith buildings).

On higher difficulties, you're not going to peacefully be able to spread religion everywhere, so you either have to be on a warpath or you have to be selective about how you spread it. Then again, maybe I'm just not very good at spreading. In peaceful 4-city games on Immortal, I've never been able to cover more than 2/5th of the map with my religion.
 
The way to make and spread religion is make 2 or 3 cities, take 2 in piety as early as you can (never mind 4 city full tradition) and put in shrines and later temples while you research philo. If you have a passive faith ability, like Celts, Ethiopia, etc its even easier.
 
religion was never a big thing for me. I do wish they incorporated a specific LACK OF or free religion like IV had, but I guess for now ignoring religion is a fine option too.

The benifits it provided never seemed worth the negative backlash from other civs, getting randomly mad at me for not loving their god or trying to spread my own religion or whatever. It seemed to always be just one more reason they want declare war on me and make me shift my focus from glorious scientific empire and leave me wasting hammers on an army of units I don't need draining my economy when the war is over.
 
Deau - I was doing that at the end of G&K and taking both IP/RT if I was Byzantium. Divine Inspiration is also nice if you are wonder spamming instead of Pilgrimage.

I had some random GnK deity game as Ethiopia once where I ran 3 city all with some desert tiles, DI and pilgrimage and was closing up on 300FPT from industrial until victory. The amount of GPs one can get from something like this is just completely stupid. Even more so now that you can go full piety late in the game just to unlock "buy any GP with faith".
 
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