Stalingrad

[cubsfan6506]

On wiki they have a mundane description of what vehichles were used in the battle of Stalingrad. Does anyone know what specific vehichles were used in the battle of Stalingrad.

Heres a picture of the wiki

 

[nonconformist]

For the Germans, the standard tank would have been the Panzer Mk IV, maybe some IIIs.
Some Opel Blitz carrier trucks, Sdkfz 251 Hanomag, and a lot of horses.

The Soviets would have used the KV1 and KV2, T-34(75) tnks later on, and no doubt a number of crappy BT tanks.
The Katyusha was quite popular in Stalingrad I have read.

 

[MilesGregarius]

During Stalingrad, the Mark III would still have been standard. Mark IVs were still considered infantry support rather than main battle tanks, though this was changing during this period.

The Germans designed some assault guns with large bore howitzers in response to the conditions in Stalingrad, but I don't know how many saw action there. If I recall correctly, a couple prototypes mounting 150mm infantry guns on, I think, old French chassis did see use and led to later designs such as the Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär.

Some Hanomags saw service at Stalingrad, but even in Panzer and Panzergrenadier divisions, only one battalion of infantry usually had them. As Stalingrad was hardly a battle of maneuver and encirclement, the half-tracks were probably withdrawn early on, at least from the main city slugfest.

The T-34 was pretty much the prime tank in Soviet use by this time. The KVs, never that numerous to begin with, were used less and less. By late '42 the BTs were extinct. I have read that the Soviets also dug in some T-60 light tanks as armored pillboxes.

 

[cubsfan6506]

Thanks both of you.

 

[FriendlyFire]

During Stalingrad, the Mark III would still have been standard. Mark IVs were still considered infantry support rather than main battle tanks, though this was changing during this period.

PzIVs were upgunned to long L43 75 to counter the T34s and KV1s, StugIIIs with the same gun were also rushed into service. The germans also made use of captured russian equipment by mounting russian 76 into AG style onto numerous tracked platforms as a stopgap measure. IIRC Army group south armoured forces recieved the lions share of replacements prior to the summer offensives in 42.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Remember, though, that the Sixth Army was NOT an armored unit, it was primarily infantry, which is why it took so long to get to Stalingrad in the first place, giving the Russians time to get semi-organized.

As for vehicles as yet unmentioned, the basics still reign: Panzer III, 88mm gun, and Manstein's brainchild, the Sturmgeschutz.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

For the Germans, the standard tank would have been the Panzer Mk IV, maybe some IIIs.
Some Opel Blitz carrier trucks, Sdkfz 251 Hanomag, and a lot of horses.

The Soviets would have used the KV1 and KV2, T-34(75) tnks later on, and no doubt a number of crappy BT tanks.
The Katyusha was quite popular in Stalingrad I have read.

That sounds about right from what I've read. While I do agree that the only advantage of the BT series of tanks is nullified in a city, I don't think they were that crappy. As a tank of any kind could turn the tide of a fire fight (of course assuming a better enemy tank doesn't arrive).

 

[FriendlyFire]

Remember, though, that the Sixth Army was NOT an armored unit, it was primarily infantry, which is why it took so long to get to Stalingrad in the first place, giving the Russians time to get semi-organized.

As for vehicles as yet unmentioned, the basics still reign: Panzer III, 88mm gun, and Manstein's brainchild, the Sturmgeschutz.

I thought the Amour supporting the 6th was diverted to the south to assist the slow progress there. With there armour element stripped the 6th could not pursue the broken Russian forces. Losing the chance of rushing into an undefended starlingrad. This was hitlers idea of trying to archieve two objectives both at the same time and in the end obtainning neither

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I thought the Amour supporting the 6th was diverted to the south to assist the slow progress there. With there armour element stripped the 6th could not pursue the broken Russian forces. Losing the chance of rushing into an undefended starlingrad. This was hitlers idea of trying to archieve two objectives both at the same time and in the end obtainning neither

Well that's what I mean. The arm driving towards Stalingrad was mostly slow-moving infantry. But Army Group South was an Army Group, not just one army.

 

[FriendlyFire]

4th Panzer Army.
1st Panzer Army.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

There was a lot more than that.

When Case Blue began in 1942, Army Group South was subdivided into Army Groups A and B. Group A drove for the Caucasus Oil Fields, and Group B drove more or less from Kharkov straight for the Volga in the Stalingrad area.

Army Group A:

Fourth Romanian Army
First Panzer Army
Seventeenth Army
Eleventh Army

Army Group B:

Second Army
Second Hungarian Army
Fourth Panzer Army
Eighth Italian Army
Third Romanian Army
Sixth Army

It was Sixth Army that was tasked with taking Stalingrad once the Don was crossed. There was one Panzer Army with them, the Fourth, which was in fact used for flanking operations, but by and large, the outfit was infantry, and slower-moving.

 

[nonconformist]

You're forgetting that the Wehrmacht, the Heer in particular, were always understrength as far as their troops numbers were concerned.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Which is ironic, because the German division size was about equal to a Russian corps IIRC.

 

[neutrino]

Which is ironic, because the German division size was about equal to a Russian corps IIRC.

If my memory is more or less correct ...

1. The pre-war Russian rifle division, insofar as TO&E, was roughly equivalent to its German counterpart.

2. Within a matter of month after the German onslaught, the Russians were forced to reorganize by truncating its pre-war TO&E (due to heavy losses, but also the vaunted Russian industrialization came up short in providing adequate numbers of support equipments for their divisions). The Russians even went further by creating rifle brigades and eliminating the corps level commands from their OB. (They had to, because they had shortage of trained officers and the pre-war organizations have turned out to be too much for their mostly inexperienced officers.)

3. By December of 1941, the Russians have lost an equivalent of her entire pre-war army. Quite usual for an 'average' rifle division to be equivalent to a 'full' German regiment. The 'smaller' Russian division was probably less of a big deal, because they created 500+ division equivalents throughout the war.

4. Only divisions assigned to major offensive operations were brought anywhere close to its 'full' strength. Such a division may have anywhere between 6000 - 7000 men, but divisions assigned to quieter sectors may have as little as 2000 men. Meanwhile, an 'average' rifle division did not have priority over replacements; a select few privileged units (e.g., tank/mech corps, guards divisions, and combat support formations) had priority over replacements.

5. The bulk of Russian combat power came from their numerous tank and artillery units, which were under the domain of higher commands (corps and above).

6. A typical wartime Russian rifle division was very 'lean' compared to her German counterpart. The former had a light artillery + an AT-gun batallions, but the latter had a mixed artillery regiment + an AT-gun batallions + assault gun company/batallion (if available). The former's regiments, each, had a light artillery battery + an AT-gun battery, while the latter an artillery batallion + an AT-gun battery.

 

[alcal]

Germans used some Marder II, equipped with 75mm cannon, as anti-tnak weapons. However tanks had a secondary use in Stalingrad, mainly because germans were out of fuels and in tanks are useless in a urban combat.

 

[EdwardTking]

And the tactics of the Russians was to keep as close to the Germans and keep fighting so that who controlled the ground was ever changing and the German bomber and long range artillery could not be deployed against front line Russian formations without killing German troops as well.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

And by keeping so close to German lines, it removed any "dead space" between them in which a blitz-type could be mounted, and kept the German units tired, since they couldn't switch out for new units like the Russians could. This didn't always work, though, and the best example of its failure is the Third Battle of Kharkov, where it was the Russians who were tired, having been the same troops on the line since Voronezh, and the Germans well-rested and fresh.