Starvation

[pandamancer]

Maybe it sounds counter intuitive, but are there scenarios where you would want to starve your citizens in order to like... run specialists or work on hammer/commerce rich tiles?

 

[Amao]

yes. i do that often in golden ages for massing GP points in just a few turns. i'd rather rush for production normally. but racing for wonders, i might have to use starvation. for commerce rich? sometimes, when it can reduce the research by 1 or more turns, i'd think about it. but the last one does depend on the situation.

 

[pandamancer]

Thanks for replying Amao, yes I also do that a lot of times .

I have checked on the micro challenge posted by Kossin. Lately, I was thinking of "what if" scenarios involving optimizing granary internal storage and slavery. As a consequence, I am looking on possible techniques on how to whip efficiently while having an optimal growth. Therefore I was wondering if starving the citizens for a few turns can also be one of these techniques. Like for example if you calculate that there are more than enough food in your food bin after whipping, you can "starve" or "stagnate" your citizen to work for more hammers or commerce for that turn. I don't know if you get what I mean.

 

[Robert FIN]

Massive spawning peroid with PHI leader comes to my mind too! I do that sometimes. If there's a big city working bad tiles I usually would use whip. If I want , then starving the city is nice option !

 

[Thrar]

By starvation, are you referring to running negative food for a few turns, or actually losing pop through it?

I regularly run on negative food for a few turns. Maybe my high-food tile is shared by another city that needs it more, or maybe I want to squeeze out a building, wonder or GP a little earlier.
Sometimes this is related to external factors, e.g. if doing a short stint in Philosophy that's about to end, or in a GA for more GPP, or in a GA perhaps using low-food tiles that get the +1/+1 bonus instead of farms that don't.

Actually starving citizens is rare. If the city can grow back quickly (e.g. GP farm) I might do it for a turn or two. Note that if you're starving, it doesn't matter how much you're starving - you can do -20 , let all your people work as specialists, and still only lose one to starvation. Can be very nice to get an extra GP when it matters, or a crucial wonder.

 

[soundjata]

Usually starvation is not advisable. For extreme cases when starvation is the best strategy, you might check the last 10 turns of Sgotm 18 (Plastic ducks) It involves needing spy points (specialists) rather than anything else and needing to decrease the population to achieve a UN victory. Generally don't starve.

 

[Amao]

for a city, say with 12 pop, if you run 12 specialists with GA/religion/pacifism, that's 108 GP for a pop. It goes higher with PHI/NE/Parthenon. Basically, the higher the pop for the starving city, the more GP you are going to get out of each pop.

 

[Doshin]

Thanks for replying Amao, yes I also do that a lot of times .

I have checked on the micro challenge posted by Kossin. Lately, I was thinking of "what if" scenarios involving optimizing granary internal storage and slavery. As a consequence, I am looking on possible techniques on how to whip efficiently while having an optimal growth. Therefore I was wondering if starving the citizens for a few turns can also be one of these techniques. Like for example if you calculate that there are more than enough food in your food bin after whipping, you can "starve" or "stagnate" your citizen to work for more hammers or commerce for that turn. I don't know if you get what I mean.

Yes, there are circumstances under which it is beneficial to run a food deficit before a Granary is built. But the gains are very small, so probably not worth worrying about.

IDK... imagine a 2-pop city with 16/24 food, and a Granary that has just been chopped but not yet built (60/60H). This city can work a wet Corn (6F) or a Plains riverside Copper (5H 1C). Working the Corn generates +4F surplus, working the Copper loses -2F, but adds +4H +1C, by comparison.

(A) Working the Corn

T0: 16F (+4F surplus thanks to the Corn)
T1: 20F (Granary built)
T2: 24/24F
T2: 4/26F (4F from Granary bin; grows onto a riverside Cottage, for the sake of an example)
T3: 8/26F (+2C from Cottage)
T4: 12/26F (+2C from Cottage)

= 12/26F 0H +4C

(B) Working the Copper

T0: 16F (+4H +1C, from Copper)
T1: 14F (Granary completes; then switches back to the Corn, again +4 surplus)
T2: 18F
T3: 22/24F
T4: 26/24F
T4: 14/26F (12 Granary bin, 2OF)

= 14/26F +4H +1C

----

So (B) is marginally superior, especially if another city can borrow the Corn while the example city is waiting for its Granary to complete.

If the city in (A) can grow onto a tile that is better than a riverside Cottage (let's say another wet Corn) then quicker growth is preferable.

 

[pandamancer]

Usually starvation is not advisable. For extreme cases when starvation is the best strategy, you might check the last 10 turns of Sgotm 18 (Plastic ducks) It involves needing spy points (specialists) rather than anything else and needing to decrease the population to achieve a UN victory. Generally don't starve.

awesome, let me check about that. Thanks!

 

[pandamancer]

Yes, there are circumstances under which it is beneficial to run a food deficit before a Granary is built. But the gains are very small, so probably not worth worrying about.

IDK... imagine a 2-pop city with 16/24 food, and a Granary that has just been chopped but not yet built (60/60H). This city can work a wet Corn (6F) or a Plains riverside Copper (5H 1C). Working the Corn generates +4F surplus, working the Copper loses -2F, but adds +4H +1C, by comparison.

(A) Working the Corn

T0: 16F (+4F surplus thanks to the Corn)
T1: 20F (Granary built)
T2: 24/24F
T2: 4/26F (4F from Granary bin; grows onto a riverside Cottage, for the sake of an example)
T3: 8/26F (+2C from Cottage)
T4: 12/26F (+2C from Cottage)

= 12/26F 0H +4C

(B) Working the Copper

T0: 16F (+4H +1C, from Copper)
T1: 14F (Granary completes; then switches back to the Corn, again +4 surplus)
T2: 18F
T3: 22/24F
T4: 26/24F
T4: 14/26F (12 Granary bin, 2OF)

= 14/26F +4H +1C

----

So (B) is marginally superior, especially if another city can borrow the Corn while the example city is waiting for its Granary to complete.

If the city in (A) can grow onto a tile that is better than a riverside Cottage (let's say another wet Corn) then quicker growth is preferable.

Yes, I am looking for scenarios like this. Is there an article that teaches stuff like that?

 

[Izuul]

If you have an 8-12T window to generate GP during a golden age while running CS and Pacifism, starvation can yield the best results. Long-term starvation is not advisable, but the goal here to get as many GPP as possible in that short window before you have to switch out of your civics and lose the GPP bonuses.

If you have the patience, you can use a spreadsheet to find the optimal way of doing this for your city, but it's generally best to continue working strong food tiles while switching all other citizens to specialists. Do this until your city reaches starvation then switch all remaining citizens over to specialists as well. Of course you want to plan ahead by growing this city as large as possible and building up some food surplus as well so that the city doesn't hit starvation too quickly.

 

[soundjata]

One more tip: When you starve, starve hard!

After starvation, you lose one pop, and the food stored is zero.
It does not matter if your food deficit the previous turn was -1 or -10.

Under caste for example, you could assign ALL citizens to specialists.

 

[Doshin]

Yes, I am looking for scenarios like this. Is there an article that teaches stuff like that?

There are a few articles on the Granary, e.g.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/food_growth.php
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12225970&postcount=149

These do not make for easy reading, but take a look and try to work out how things work for yourself, in actual games or tests.

The key thing to remember is that the Granary stockpiles food after the food bin is half full (e.g. if a city needs 22F to grow, only food at sizes 12–22 is stockpiled), and that this process only begins on the turn after the Granary is built. Growing beyond size 2 without a Granary is not usually optimal, but sometimes excellent tiles necessitate this, and Civ is a game full of compromises, because the optimal play is not always possible.