Hi everyone! For those who don't know me, I did a lot of testing and brainstorming for the mod during its early and middle cycles, and now I pop back in now and a gain to see how things are going.
I've been playing the patch pretty aggressively for the last month, so I wanted to give my general overall take on where I think its at.
A few notes: To give context, I generally play on a classical start on small maps (mainly for performance reasons). I generally play until the Industrial Era, I tend to want to try a new game after that, so I don't have a lot of end game feedback.
Performance: Patch is running well to me on the small maps I normally play, giving good turn speeds. No issues there.
Terraforming: I think you have mostly nailed this one. Villages are very very strong, but their positional requirements combined with the farm adjacency benefit makes for some fun gameplay. I try to maximize the number of villages I can get while at the same time trying to create triangles of farms to get the big food benefit.
Mines are useful when needed (thank you forge building) to sprinkle around everything else. Overall, very pleased here.
Policies: In terms of the core 3, they all feel pretty nice right now. Progress' Opener is absolutely amazing...I thought it was OP when I first started playing. It is probably my default chain overall, but I am a building whore!
However, Authority has a very solid overall chain. Tribute is amazing for growing new cities, and then the followup early settler is always great. However, I think what makes Authority a good chain is actually the Barbarian Horde CS quest. This means that warmonger or not, there is usually always some good targets for my military to kill for culture and science, and maybe the liberation of a CS. I find that quest ensures I have a use for Authority in any game I play.
Tradition may be the sleeping giant of the 3. Its bonuses are much tamer overall, but Great People provide very strong benefits (even more so when you get extra benefits for expending them), and growth has a ton of benefits, so it may be very strong. It feels the most "boring" of the 3 to me right now...but I don't think it needs a change unless others have feedback.
Statecraft is close to being a good chain. I think the blend of CS and Diplomacy is a good niche...I just think the diplomacy is too far down in the tree. What I would like to see is:
Make the Informates (extra spy) benefit the opener, and move the Opener benefit down 1 level. Than bring the consulates (additonal delegates) benefit earlier in the tree. Spies and delegates have some general purposes uses that even a person not going heavy CS play can enjoy...so it makes the tree a bit more appealing if a CS heavy play doesn't work out.
Aesthetics: The opener is great, and some interesting polices throughout. Humanism is actually an incredible science bonus if used correctly. From a balance perspective, cultural diplomacy I think sticks out. Its basically a required policy for a tourism victory, and therefore you are forced to go through the aesthestics tree to get the culture victory (which means you have to plan for it earlier). I wouldn't mind seeing that bonus weaker but earlier in the tree so a person could try a non aesthetics heavy cultural victory.
Piety: Still a weak tree to me overall. The opener is interesting, though I think it should give a great prophet straight up. It comes at the time of the game when that Great Prophet can solidfy a religion play, so I think its a great time for it. At least remove some of the prereqs in this tree, to allow a bit more of a sprinkle into Piety.
Imperalism: So neat things in this tree. My only complaint is exploration comes too late...my exploring phase often hits a lot earlier than when that policy is truly useful, so I would make it earlier in the tree.
Rationalism: No longer the OP tree, in fact it might be a little behind some of the others now. The only one I question is scientific revolution, is it actually that good?
World/National Wonders:
I'm not going to mention the wonder balances themselves; I will note that I like a lot of the "free building" wonders. I like the thought of going "I was going to build that building anyway, lets gamble and go for a bigger benefit".
In terms of prereqs, I'm not a fan of the wonders coming at policies closers instead of openers. For one, the wonders come much later than they intend to in terms of the tech tree and history. The Hanging Gardens unlock at mathematics doesn't matter, no one is going to have that tree field until much later, as one example. For the second, I don't think the game needs to add more incentives to complete trees....there is already plenty of incentive to do that. Instead, encouraging a sprinkling of policies across multiple trees leads to a greater variety in game play. If someone wants to take Tradition's Opener just to try for the hanging gardens while then going authority....hey why not?
For the Wonders that have policy prereqs, very interesting idea, I can see how it encourages culture more strongly and gives tall play an edge in wonder making. I do feel like some of the prereqs are too high for early wonders. The roman forum was one that stuck out for me, I am trying to get this wonder for diplomatic use, I'm not focusing on culture. And it takes a LOT of culture to get the polices for that building. So maybe reduce the policy needs by 1 or so would do the trick.
Building Balance:
Overall, I like where most of the buildings are at. The Granary, Monument, and Shrine are solid initial buildings. Amphitheater is worth building now. Really like the arena. Aqueduct feels a tad on the weak side, but growth is very strong so I'm not saying it needs changing.
I like the stoneworks ability to send production early on, its a nice touch. Watermill is a very expensive but great building, I like it. Forge is a solid bonus, all of the military buildings are good to build now. I appreciate that the library is a decent building again without having to use the specialist slot. The herbalist is a cool building for forest/jungle spots (heck combined with the workshop and university forest/jungle becomes insanely good). I like the tourism idea with the harbor and caravansary to give them some love.
My only problem....I never have enough hammers!!! There are so many good buildings to build now, I never want to stop building for even a second. That is probably good balance right there.
Religion: I like the Great Prophet/Missionary balance now. I only like that Temples provide religious pressure, to allow me to give me more control over that aspect if I want it. There are definitely some fun aspects here.
Gold: Gold feels like its in a good place overall. Land buying is useful (it feels that overall borders progress slower without boosters, is that true?), investment is solid, the unit buy only with certain buildings is a nice touch. I find gold to be good and I use it for a number of things.
Happiness System:
The older crowd will know that I have often been a vocal opponent of this system, and now having used it a long time....unfortunately I still am. The good thing I can say is the system is a lot more stable than it used to be. Happiness shifts in small waves, not in huge chunks. And the UI has gotten much better around it.
However, at the end of the day, I still think people spent a lot of time and energy on a subsystem that really isn't better than the original system. I think you all did such a great job with building balance that the happiness system isn't needed to encourage certain buildings to be built. I think the focus on growth and population bonuses have made for better Tall vs Wide balance....again this system is not necessary.
Honestly, for the most part I ignore it. Once in a while I will build a key building because I think it might give me back 2 happiness or something...but its rare. I know there is no going back, just my honest assessment.
Trade Routes More of a question here. It seems like terrain and roads heavily impact Caravans. Sometimes they don't reach a city 7 squares away, until I build some roads. Is that intended? If so, its a cool idea.
Tourism: I definitely like that early game tourism is on the menu, especially with the arena, and that early game tourism has a use.
My only objection is that trade routes give growth bonuses with tourism...which is a nice bonus but you already get big food bonuses with internal routes...so why compete there? Considering the new focus on culture, what if you got culture bonuses added in instead?
I can't speak for late game tourism balance, but I like that it now has a place in the early game, but not so much that you have to go for it. Good job!
Military
Promotions: I like the differentiation between drill and shock now, and the new recon promotions for scouts. The only one I question is the ranged ship promotion that gives +X% to melee strength against wounded units...what purpose does that serve?
Naval Units: I know the Dromon debate is ongoing. Overall, I like that navy is strong from the beginning of the game to the end (and that the AI builds a navy now).
City Conquest: Cities feel hard to take without being impossible, my only issue here is that once the garrisoned unit is killed (a feature I do like), the city strength often drops so much that it becomes a cake walk to take the city. It makes it feels that the city hitpoints don't matter that much.
City States: First of all, just wanted to say that I LOVE the miltiary prereq idea for the pledge to protect. That is brilliant, finally people don't pledge every CS they come across just because. I also like that tribute bonuses are very strong, makes it worth doing.
Overall, the quests are great, I like the variety and the further encouragement for warfare early game. My only issue overall is that envoys for me just don't have a place until far along in the game. I need every hammer and gold coin for buildings, units, and land.....bagging a CS that keeps decaying doesn't seem that useful until later in the game. Was curious if anyone else thought the same here.
A note on "Instant Bonuses" Once concern I have is just how many instant or situational bonuses there are now, there are so many quick bonuses for growth, poping a GP, expanding a border. It feels like in many games the numbers that the game shows me or just a paltry part of my overall game, the instant bonuses are often more important. I think that does take away from the game management, and wouldn't mind toning those down a bit where it makes sense.
AI: In general, I definitely noticed the improvements in AI.
a) Much stronger navy focus which is good.
b) AI will actually try to send a unit in my backyard for some pickenings. Only issue is it doesn't send enough, even 2 together is a lot stronger than 1 by itself.
c) More military buildup in general.
d) Unit movement a bit smarter, I've actually seen the AI do a little sneaking and grab a worker of mine, well played AI!
Conclusion: Overall, I think the Mod has done a great job improving balance and adding new features to the game. I am very proud to have a part of this project, and Gazebo I gave you all the kudos in the world for the tenacity to bring such a project this far. Congratulations.
I've been playing the patch pretty aggressively for the last month, so I wanted to give my general overall take on where I think its at.
A few notes: To give context, I generally play on a classical start on small maps (mainly for performance reasons). I generally play until the Industrial Era, I tend to want to try a new game after that, so I don't have a lot of end game feedback.
Performance: Patch is running well to me on the small maps I normally play, giving good turn speeds. No issues there.
Terraforming: I think you have mostly nailed this one. Villages are very very strong, but their positional requirements combined with the farm adjacency benefit makes for some fun gameplay. I try to maximize the number of villages I can get while at the same time trying to create triangles of farms to get the big food benefit.
Mines are useful when needed (thank you forge building) to sprinkle around everything else. Overall, very pleased here.
Policies: In terms of the core 3, they all feel pretty nice right now. Progress' Opener is absolutely amazing...I thought it was OP when I first started playing. It is probably my default chain overall, but I am a building whore!
However, Authority has a very solid overall chain. Tribute is amazing for growing new cities, and then the followup early settler is always great. However, I think what makes Authority a good chain is actually the Barbarian Horde CS quest. This means that warmonger or not, there is usually always some good targets for my military to kill for culture and science, and maybe the liberation of a CS. I find that quest ensures I have a use for Authority in any game I play.
Tradition may be the sleeping giant of the 3. Its bonuses are much tamer overall, but Great People provide very strong benefits (even more so when you get extra benefits for expending them), and growth has a ton of benefits, so it may be very strong. It feels the most "boring" of the 3 to me right now...but I don't think it needs a change unless others have feedback.
Statecraft is close to being a good chain. I think the blend of CS and Diplomacy is a good niche...I just think the diplomacy is too far down in the tree. What I would like to see is:
Make the Informates (extra spy) benefit the opener, and move the Opener benefit down 1 level. Than bring the consulates (additonal delegates) benefit earlier in the tree. Spies and delegates have some general purposes uses that even a person not going heavy CS play can enjoy...so it makes the tree a bit more appealing if a CS heavy play doesn't work out.
Aesthetics: The opener is great, and some interesting polices throughout. Humanism is actually an incredible science bonus if used correctly. From a balance perspective, cultural diplomacy I think sticks out. Its basically a required policy for a tourism victory, and therefore you are forced to go through the aesthestics tree to get the culture victory (which means you have to plan for it earlier). I wouldn't mind seeing that bonus weaker but earlier in the tree so a person could try a non aesthetics heavy cultural victory.
Piety: Still a weak tree to me overall. The opener is interesting, though I think it should give a great prophet straight up. It comes at the time of the game when that Great Prophet can solidfy a religion play, so I think its a great time for it. At least remove some of the prereqs in this tree, to allow a bit more of a sprinkle into Piety.
Imperalism: So neat things in this tree. My only complaint is exploration comes too late...my exploring phase often hits a lot earlier than when that policy is truly useful, so I would make it earlier in the tree.
Rationalism: No longer the OP tree, in fact it might be a little behind some of the others now. The only one I question is scientific revolution, is it actually that good?
World/National Wonders:
I'm not going to mention the wonder balances themselves; I will note that I like a lot of the "free building" wonders. I like the thought of going "I was going to build that building anyway, lets gamble and go for a bigger benefit".
In terms of prereqs, I'm not a fan of the wonders coming at policies closers instead of openers. For one, the wonders come much later than they intend to in terms of the tech tree and history. The Hanging Gardens unlock at mathematics doesn't matter, no one is going to have that tree field until much later, as one example. For the second, I don't think the game needs to add more incentives to complete trees....there is already plenty of incentive to do that. Instead, encouraging a sprinkling of policies across multiple trees leads to a greater variety in game play. If someone wants to take Tradition's Opener just to try for the hanging gardens while then going authority....hey why not?
For the Wonders that have policy prereqs, very interesting idea, I can see how it encourages culture more strongly and gives tall play an edge in wonder making. I do feel like some of the prereqs are too high for early wonders. The roman forum was one that stuck out for me, I am trying to get this wonder for diplomatic use, I'm not focusing on culture. And it takes a LOT of culture to get the polices for that building. So maybe reduce the policy needs by 1 or so would do the trick.
Building Balance:
Overall, I like where most of the buildings are at. The Granary, Monument, and Shrine are solid initial buildings. Amphitheater is worth building now. Really like the arena. Aqueduct feels a tad on the weak side, but growth is very strong so I'm not saying it needs changing.
I like the stoneworks ability to send production early on, its a nice touch. Watermill is a very expensive but great building, I like it. Forge is a solid bonus, all of the military buildings are good to build now. I appreciate that the library is a decent building again without having to use the specialist slot. The herbalist is a cool building for forest/jungle spots (heck combined with the workshop and university forest/jungle becomes insanely good). I like the tourism idea with the harbor and caravansary to give them some love.
My only problem....I never have enough hammers!!! There are so many good buildings to build now, I never want to stop building for even a second. That is probably good balance right there.
Religion: I like the Great Prophet/Missionary balance now. I only like that Temples provide religious pressure, to allow me to give me more control over that aspect if I want it. There are definitely some fun aspects here.
Gold: Gold feels like its in a good place overall. Land buying is useful (it feels that overall borders progress slower without boosters, is that true?), investment is solid, the unit buy only with certain buildings is a nice touch. I find gold to be good and I use it for a number of things.
Happiness System:
The older crowd will know that I have often been a vocal opponent of this system, and now having used it a long time....unfortunately I still am. The good thing I can say is the system is a lot more stable than it used to be. Happiness shifts in small waves, not in huge chunks. And the UI has gotten much better around it.
However, at the end of the day, I still think people spent a lot of time and energy on a subsystem that really isn't better than the original system. I think you all did such a great job with building balance that the happiness system isn't needed to encourage certain buildings to be built. I think the focus on growth and population bonuses have made for better Tall vs Wide balance....again this system is not necessary.
Honestly, for the most part I ignore it. Once in a while I will build a key building because I think it might give me back 2 happiness or something...but its rare. I know there is no going back, just my honest assessment.
Trade Routes More of a question here. It seems like terrain and roads heavily impact Caravans. Sometimes they don't reach a city 7 squares away, until I build some roads. Is that intended? If so, its a cool idea.
Tourism: I definitely like that early game tourism is on the menu, especially with the arena, and that early game tourism has a use.
My only objection is that trade routes give growth bonuses with tourism...which is a nice bonus but you already get big food bonuses with internal routes...so why compete there? Considering the new focus on culture, what if you got culture bonuses added in instead?
I can't speak for late game tourism balance, but I like that it now has a place in the early game, but not so much that you have to go for it. Good job!
Military
Promotions: I like the differentiation between drill and shock now, and the new recon promotions for scouts. The only one I question is the ranged ship promotion that gives +X% to melee strength against wounded units...what purpose does that serve?
Naval Units: I know the Dromon debate is ongoing. Overall, I like that navy is strong from the beginning of the game to the end (and that the AI builds a navy now).
City Conquest: Cities feel hard to take without being impossible, my only issue here is that once the garrisoned unit is killed (a feature I do like), the city strength often drops so much that it becomes a cake walk to take the city. It makes it feels that the city hitpoints don't matter that much.
City States: First of all, just wanted to say that I LOVE the miltiary prereq idea for the pledge to protect. That is brilliant, finally people don't pledge every CS they come across just because. I also like that tribute bonuses are very strong, makes it worth doing.
Overall, the quests are great, I like the variety and the further encouragement for warfare early game. My only issue overall is that envoys for me just don't have a place until far along in the game. I need every hammer and gold coin for buildings, units, and land.....bagging a CS that keeps decaying doesn't seem that useful until later in the game. Was curious if anyone else thought the same here.
A note on "Instant Bonuses" Once concern I have is just how many instant or situational bonuses there are now, there are so many quick bonuses for growth, poping a GP, expanding a border. It feels like in many games the numbers that the game shows me or just a paltry part of my overall game, the instant bonuses are often more important. I think that does take away from the game management, and wouldn't mind toning those down a bit where it makes sense.
AI: In general, I definitely noticed the improvements in AI.
a) Much stronger navy focus which is good.
b) AI will actually try to send a unit in my backyard for some pickenings. Only issue is it doesn't send enough, even 2 together is a lot stronger than 1 by itself.
c) More military buildup in general.
d) Unit movement a bit smarter, I've actually seen the AI do a little sneaking and grab a worker of mine, well played AI!
Conclusion: Overall, I think the Mod has done a great job improving balance and adding new features to the game. I am very proud to have a part of this project, and Gazebo I gave you all the kudos in the world for the tenacity to bring such a project this far. Congratulations.
.
right up at the top of the tree.
