State property

Petros

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Messages
29
I think that the State Property civic is too strong in comparison with historical facts about Communist regimes. I guess this is why most players favor it over Free Market, whereas in real life, the latter is definitely more popular.

State Property gives the player extra food, however, in reality, millions of people starved to death in the Communist economies of Russia and China as a consequence of forced industrialization.

Additionally, the distribution of goods and resources was highly ineffective, so the maintenance costs were really high, whereas in Civ4, the maintenance cost of State Property is Low (not to mention the lack of maintenance costs from distance to palace), as opposed to all other Economy civics (except Decentralization) with Medium maintenance costs.

I guess it was a good idea from Firaxis to weaken it a little bit by banning all corporations (even your own) in Beyond the Sword.
 
I agree- the costs of centralisation were massive!

I think a system whereby what trade routes you did have are converted to production would be good (representing the fast burst of extra productivity from the mindwashed proles, in love with the idea) This would deteriorate over time (as it has done), until the costs become prohibitive, and all production bonus is gone.

Maybe give it whipping, to resemble how Stalin pushed production to it's limits? :whipped:

And a high cost.

Free trade and decentralisation always confuse me: why does free trade give extra trade routes, but not decentralisation? I think decentralisation should give +1 trade route, +50% :commerce: , and to balance it take -50% to build troops, to show how hard it would be for the central order to raise an army in these circumstances.

Free markets are relatively cheep to run, so I would advocate cutting the costs to low, and to balance this, the city receiving a trade route gets half the income that the sending city does. This would represent how free trade benefits both parties (since it is mutually voluntary, both must increase their utility), and how cities like London become hubs of commerce.

Mercantilism: the exploitation of colonies! Isn't this just asking for +100%:commerce: from trade routes with vassals?
 
Great ideas, LarkLight :) I, too, think State Property is quite overpowered, and I never understood the significances of the bonuses. Did they change the Upkeep to low?? I'm still playing vanilla and it has no upkeep...
 
I find it's effects too weak for how late in the game it comes. Historically speaking the only society that ever did flourish under this Civic, was Ancient Egypt. Not only was the state relatively small, area wise,(And area is the big issue because that determines how long it takes for news to get to central bases of power, but also how long it takes for orders to reach outer provinces,) but also most economic decisions were made at a city level, then later reviewed for continuation, improvement, or cessation by a central authority. Additionally, while all things in Egypt officially belonged to Pharoah, Pharoah allowed people to develop their own things, and did not use egalatarianism to negate meritocracy. Like all other state property economies did. The oligarchy hampered meritocracy enough as it is, and oligarchy by no means went away in The Soviet Union or The Peoples Republic of China... the oligarchies there jsut got worse, without kings or presidents to keep the oligarchies in check. Also, Egypt was not a police state. People were told what to make, but they weren't told not to make anything else, and they weren't told to make only so much of what they're told to make. Nor were they issued their grocery list by the government. Higher quantities of good produced was seen as a good thing, and so were higher qualities. So high qualities and high quantities of goods would fill the market places, and even be sold abroad, whereas in Soviet Russia, marketplaces were empty, due to low quantities of low quaility goods, because there was no reward for making extra, or making it better. So when a farmer is forced to grow only so much wheat, then burn any exess of the quota, in the case of an abundant harvest, your people starve based on slight mathematical errors, and the inability to predict depreciation. If a farmer is given a quota to give Pharoah, and allowed to keep 80% of what exceeds the quota to do with as he will, your farmers become the richest farmers in the world, your miners become the richest miners, your quarrymen become the richest quarrymen, your fishermen become the richest fishermen, your weavers become the richest weavers, your nobles become the richest nobles, your slaves become the richest slaves, and you become the richest person in the world. Not the aim of Communism, I know, but it was a result of an early experiment in state property institutions. And these institutions become a means to plan ahead. Surplus stored in huge granaries make famine years a lot more bearable, whereas in Soviet Russia, a famine year, meant another empty school grade 5 years down the road and more killings on trumped up charges, just for the sake of lowering the number of mouths to feed. Making Christianity punishable by death yet allowing large portions of the population to be Christian was one way of doing it... forced labor on deliberately unsafe public works projects was another. They had more methods for reducint the number of mouths to feed inacted then they had solutions for feeding them even conceived. They eventually caved and started to do things more like how it was done in Egypt, for Russia it was too little too late, They had inflicted too much damage on an economy too large for them to control effectively, and their efforts to rebuild it not only came too late, but were half-measures at best. China fared much better, and has a growing upper class, but it still has issues of poverty and inequality, and there is only a limited degree of meritocracy. I couldn't say whether it is improving or degrading. But their current economy looks more like a sweat shop driven free market, than an actual commune economy. Only time will tell. One thing Egypt did, however that no other state property experiments did, was subsidise religion. The Pharoahs ownership of everything was derrived from the fact that he was their God. To them he was the sun and the moon, the earth and the sky. This made him very powerful in the eyes of the people... and instead of repressing religion, he sponsors it. Instead of using religion to get money out of people, it is funded entirely on money the Pharoah already got from the people. Donations and sacrifices were taken into consideration when tallying the work quotas. I mean the odds are the people worshiping in the outer spaces, where the common people come to worship, were invovled in the forced labor that built the thing. Not slaves, slaves were never allowed to work on temples or Pyramids, if a slave was at the construction site, the odds are, he was the guy with the whip. They even got paid for it. Poverty never resulted from lack in that nation... it resulted from ignorance, and it resulted from supression of groups. It was nice to be on the Pharoah's good side. Even if he was a total ignoramous, he was still God as far as you were concerned, and if he liked you, you were well to do, but if you were on his . .. .. .. . list... well having extremeties below the neck(like the rest of your body for example) is a luxury only everyone else can afford.

Well, I think I've said enough. No society is ever anywhere near perfect. Seeing as I've gone into "evil sense of humor" mode, I probably need to get some sleep now.

P.S. I'd go back and divide that into paragraphs, but I'm too sleepy to care about it.
 
Hold on a minute, youre talking about how well capitalism works in comparison, tlaking about famines in communist countries, did it occur to you that capitalism is not just the system in place in Northern America, Europe and Japan? Its also the system that has over seen countless famines in Africa, has left the majority of the worlds population in relative poverty, and was responsible for countless death in the industrial revolution (probably more than Stalin killed). Defenders of capitalism always seem to forget that for every French or German or american economy that has done well under capitalism, there are 5 Nigerias, Argentinas, or Indonesias that have been devastated by it
 
There is a huge debate about this in another thread on this forum :p

Check it out.

Merci! :)

Great ideas, LarkLight :) I, too, think State Property is quite overpowered, and I never understood the significances of the bonuses. Did they change the Upkeep to low?? I'm still playing vanilla and it has no upkeep...

Thanks.

I'm not sure about the upkeep, as I don't use it (free market man myself, and when I'm winning I perswade everyone else to switch to it too:D ), but someone else said it was.
 
Hold on a minute, youre talking about how well capitalism works in comparison, tlaking about famines in communist countries, did it occur to you that capitalism is not just the system in place in Northern America, Europe and Japan? Its also the system that has over seen countless famines in Africa, has left the majority of the worlds population in relative poverty, and was responsible for countless death in the industrial revolution (probably more than Stalin killed). Defenders of capitalism always seem to forget that for every French or German or american economy that has done well under capitalism, there are 5 Nigerias, Argentinas, or Indonesias that have been devastated by it

Africa has massicve trade boundries. 5 states have over 200% tax rates, and it is very hard to do buisness in all of them. (see here:http://www.doingbusiness.org/ExploreEconomies/?economyid=2) There are only 7 countires in the world with free markets, and all are prosperous. Africa has been ruined by socialism and petty tribal/religious wars.

Africa has always been poor: its GDP has dropped by 6% since the Europeans left and they tried to institute collectivist policies.

Capitalism is entirely based on volentary transactions: thus no-one becomes worse off. Look how well Hong Kong has done: poverty to prosperity in 50 years.
 
So thats how you excuse the capitalist countries that havent worked? They arent capitalist? Yes they are, its not exactly the same as the capitalism that exists in Western Europe and the US, Japan and South Korea. but its still capitalism, its still private property and accumulation of wealth by individuals. Just because it dosent fit into your vision of perfect capitalism dosent mean it isnt capitalism at all.

this is the same argument that some people trot out about bad communist regimes, that "they werent really communist". they were, just a variant on a type of communism
 
So thats how you excuse the capitalist countries that havent worked? They arent capitalist? Yes they are, its not exactly the same as the capitalism that exists in Western Europe and the US, Japan and South Korea. but its still capitalism, its still private property and accumulation of wealth by individuals. Just because it dosent fit into your vision of perfect capitalism dosent mean it isnt capitalism at all.

If it isn't Western IT'S WRONG DAMNIT!

Honestly, we are God's chosen people, why doesn't the rest of the world realise that?

Westerners>All

Deal with it.
 
So thats how you excuse the capitalist countries that havent worked? They arent capitalist? Yes they are, its not exactly the same as the capitalism that exists in Western Europe and the US, Japan and South Korea. but its still capitalism, its still private property and accumulation of wealth by individuals. Just because it dosent fit into your vision of perfect capitalism dosent mean it isnt capitalism at all.

this is the same argument that some people trot out about bad communist regimes, that "they werent really communist". they were, just a variant on a type of communism

Tax Rates:

Central African ‘Republic’: 209.5%
‘Democratic Republic’ of the Congo: 235.4%
Sierra Leone: 277.0%
Burundi: 286.7%
Gambia: 291.4%

source: World bank.

Those four countries certainly aren't. And if you would care to look at the statistics, all the poor African nations have massive states that try to help their people by taxing them, and then spending it on wars. Taking out loans, and then begging to be excused from paying them back

A Capitalist society would never have taxes anywhere near that high. They all have massive trade bounderies, which are an anaphema to Capitalism. They do not have free markets, they do not have free economies ergo. they are poor.

This is isn't mine, but I'm sure Javid won't mind my using it.

Spoiler :
In order to establish this claim, let’s have a look at an African country. I have no idea which one is typical for the whole continent (if indeed there is one, with East Africa being hugely different to, say, Morroco), but for now let’s just go with Malawi, seeing as some friend from school are doing a charity project there over the summer:

According to the World Bank, starting a business in Malawi involves ten procedures which on average takes 37 days, compared to the OECD averages of 6.2 and 16 respectively. Starting a business costs 134.7% of income per capita, unlike in Singapore where it’s only 0.8%.

Once you’ve started a business there, you need to deal with licences. In order, for example, to build a warehouse, including obtaining necessary licenses and permits, completing required notifications and inspections, and obtaining utility connections you’ll have to go through 22 procedures, costing 236.2% of income per capita; compare this to Singapire, where it takes 11 procedures and 22% of income p.c.

Can you see how difficult it is to engage in enterprise in these poor, bureaucratic countries already? Unfortunately, Malawi isn’t the exception and there’s at least sixty countries in the world which are even worse, apparently. What makes it even more difficult is that those in Africa are less educated than we are, and don’t have access to all the lawyers the World Bank does, making it even more harder for them.

In Malawi, if you’d like to fire someone – something which is very important, because if it’s harder to fire someone, you’re less likely to hire in the first place (look at France, for example, and specifically youth unemployment). Now, in order to fire someone in Malawi, it costs 84.3 weeks of wages, compared to 26.0 in your beloved Sweden.

Registering property takes 118 days (which is why most of it isn’t), but that actually isn’t so bad for the third world (OECD average: 31.8) – in Haiti it takes 683 days, for example.

Evidently, Malawi isn’t very good on the mortgage front, because it seems nobody has credit, whether it’s underwritted privately or by the government. But, if it’s quite hard to register property and businesses, you can’t get credit – rolling out property rights would be the most effective way of reducing world poverty – and if you can’t get credit, you can only build your house on the money you have in your pockets – which is why houses there tend to be made of corrugated iron, at best. If you can’t register property, neither can you have access to the electricity, water or telephone networks either, which makes living and running a business very hard.

Now, you’ll probably love this bit: what Malawi is good at is ripping off companies (of course, when you find out they’re poor Africans, you’ll probably drop the Marxist nonsense, at least in this case). It takes 29 payments to pay one’s taxes in Malawi and 878 hours (no wonder they can’t feed themselves, if they’re too busy paying the government!); compare this to the OECD average of 15.3 and 202.9 respectively (these figures are for a medium-sized business in a given year). Profit tax is 31.5% comapred to 20.7% in the OECD (Laffer Curve, anyone!?). On the total tax rate, however, Malawi is quite good, it being less than the OECD’s (as they don’t pay labour taxes for pensions, but they’re deducted from incomes anyway): 32.6% compared to the regions average of 71.2%.

Wow, the average African tax rate for businesses is 71.2%. No wonder they’re so poor, because if el presidente is going to take away that much money from you, why bother setting up in the first place? I’m never going to invest a penny in Africa, be it by aid or otherwise, not of 71.2% of money given to businesses gets stolen by the government anyway! It’s obscene and just shows it’s Africa’s own fault that it’s poor. If there ever was a proof for the Laffer Curve, this is it!

Oxfam estimates that if Africa’s trade share increased by 1%, 128 million people would be lifted out of poverty. Here’s an idea: they could make it slightly easier bureaucratically, for in Malawi it costs $1,565 in regulatory fees to export a container of goods (compared to the OECD average of $811) taking 44 days requiring eight documents, compared to 10.5 and 4.8 respectively.

One thing Malawi’s government can do more of, however, is enforce contracts. Obviously, the harder it is to do such a thing, the less likely people are to invest. If you ever go to Africa, you’ll notice, for example, that nobody will accept a credit card (except foreign hotels), because, well, nobody ever honours their payments (not that you’d need one anyway). In order to enforce a contract in Malawi, it takes 40 procedures and costs 136.5% of the debt (so it’s not worth it anyway – ****** country!); in the OECD, these figures are 22.2 and 11.5%.

Okay, have you been with me so far? One more thing – closing a business. Banks will only lend to businesses if they know they can get collateral; without loans from banks, businesses can’t have any money. Now, in the OECD, when a bank closes a business it costs 7.1% of the estate and they typically have a recovery rate on average of 74 cents on every dollar – because of this, most banks are willing to invest in businesses here. Not in Malawi, where it costs 29.5% of the estate, which is futile anyway with a recovery rate of 13.2 cents on the dollar.

Can you see now how Malawi is screwing itself over and that it’s its own fault that it’s poor? Take any African country you like the economic status quo will be quite similar – indeed, this situation seems common to the whole of the third world. Should we abolish the CAP, introduce ‘fair’ trade and give Africa billions of pounds of our hard-earned money? Before we do such a thing, Africa should sort out its own house – indeed, these things seem trivial compared to how Africa is screwing over itself
 
OK so if these countries, with mass private property, financial speculation, clearly defined social classes, and extremely uneven distribution of wealth arent capitalist, what are they? Capitalism isnt defined by how high your taxes are. Sweden has high taxation and is capitalist. In any case, you've gine a few examples of countries you dont wasnt to classify as capitalist because it proves capitalism only works well for a few countries. There are many, many poor countries which are capitalist.
 
all the poor African nations have massive states that try to help their people by taxing them, and then spending it on wars. [/SPOILER]


all of them? Really? Name to me now which african countries are presently at war, cause evry one of them is poor compared to the western world, yet most of them havent been at war for years.

To decide any capitalist system that has failed suddenly cant be classified as capitalism is the laziest, most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.
 
OK so if these countries, with mass private property, financial speculation, clearly defined social classes, and extremely uneven distribution of wealth arent capitalist, what are they? Capitalism isnt defined by how high your taxes are. Sweden has high taxation and is capitalist. In any case, you've gine a few examples of countries you dont wasnt to classify as capitalist because it proves capitalism only works well for a few countries. There are many, many poor countries which are capitalist.

A mixture of socialism and raw chaos is what they are, with elements of Nationalism! Sweden is socialist, no longer Capitalist, partly because of the high taxes, and the mass redistribution screems.

Capitalism, based upon the individual's right to peroperty, cannot tolerate large state involvement. Why should anyone work if the state will take it from them? That is why Africa is poor: Individuals have no gurantee of their porperty.

Capitalism makes everyone richer, becuase it maximised utlity. If all trades are mutually beneficial, then everyone is better off. Capitalism ensures this.

all of them? Really? Name to me now which african countries are presently at war, cause evry one of them is poor compared to the western world, yet most of them havent been at war for years.

To decide any capitalist system that has failed suddenly cant be classified as capitalism is the laziest, most ridiculous argument I've ever heard.

It would be. Which is why I don't use it. Without free markets, tolerably low levels of taxation and a reduction in beurocracy, a state cannot be classified as Capitalist. Africa has no Capitalist states, and all are poor. There are 7 states in the world with free markets, and their lossening up was the cause for their wealth.

Compare Britain with France. Beofre Thatcher, our economy was 25% lower. Now, it is 10% higher, and growing, while they have stagnetation.

And lo: economic freedom (capitalism) prefectly corrilates with standards of living. How bizzare...

South Africa and Kenya do reasonably well. And then, neighbouring South Africa, Zimbabwe's efferts for socialism have led to collapse. Mauritania has fough, as had Uganda... Not to mention all the petty tribal feuding.
 
Man if you truly think Sweden is socialist, then this is not a discussion I'm willing to have with you. Our perspectives are too far apart to even bother. Incidentally, "socialist" Sweden if thats what you think it is, is richer than almost every country on earth. you say why should ayone work if the state takes it off them? Well, Sweden seems to be doing alright. Not much social unrest or poverty there. In fact, less there than the UK, or the US, or South Korea, or Japan...what are the 7 capitalist staes?
 
It's got massive taxes, a strong system of social security... in fact, it is every socialist's textbook example! Normally it's the other way around. However, it does have large unemployment. Give it a decade... France now is what Sweden will look like.

Singapore
New Zealand
United States
Canada
Hong Kong, China
United Kingdom
Denmark

In that order, accoring to http://www.doingbusiness.org/EconomyRankings/ . All doing quite well. In fact, if you glance down the list there, the lower down places are, the poorer.

Singapore used to be home to a lot of the world's poor. and now, it isn't. The Asian Tigers embraced liberalism from nothing and got the jackpot.
 
Swedens empoyment is roughly 2-3%. and I'm not going to take your unfounded prediction that it will slip into recession as fact thank you. Nor I think would most poeple. Sweden, as I said, has less social unrest than any one of the countries you list as capitalist. high standard of living, very little problems with drugs, racism, crime etc... yeah you can keeop pure capitalism man. I'd take sweden any day of the week. Or even non-capitalist Ireland, as you would bizarrely classify it
 
I love watching these debates. I don't have much to directly contribute but a few things I've noticed in my own studies.

If I may say, though, I'm quite glad the US government taxes me and uses it to fund great administrative features like the FDA. They prevent paint thinner from getting in my mustard and the use of the carcinogen benzene to decaffeinate coffee (both real examples).

Also, take a look at some municipal services, like water. If the free market was allowed to run things (as they did in the US in the 19th century), a large number of people would not have running water or electricity. I'm also glad my "socialist" comrades fought for municipal water, so that I am guaranteed access to it.

I would say many but the most hardcore capitalists nowadays agree with the notion of "gas and water socialism", to use the British term.
 
So thats how you excuse the capitalist countries that havent worked? They arent capitalist? Yes they are, its not exactly the same as the capitalism that exists in Western Europe and the US, Japan and South Korea. but its still capitalism, its still private property and accumulation of wealth by individuals. Just because it dosent fit into your vision of perfect capitalism dosent mean it isnt capitalism at all.

this is the same argument that some people trot out about bad communist regimes, that "they werent really communist". they were, just a variant on a type of communism

Well, could you make a list of successful communist countries? Capitalism and democracy may not be perfect but you're missing the forest for the trees here. Most, if not all, of the innovations and services that have benefited mankind everywhere have not been the result of government subsidies.
 
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