1.18 Civics Changes

[SultanRedSnake]

Been running more tests to expand the sample pool and observed trends are holding. Despotism still ascendant, and Caste System retained by civs that have caught up on Health and have few or no plantations. Changes to the Territory category (which I think were right) has seen a rise in Kinship since Isolationism still doesn't present an attractive option; however this selection isn't positively harmful so it can be considered lower priority.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Thought: Are we conceiving of Thalassocracy in game as *more* mercantile or militaristic (or neither)? The latter right? Its a Territory Civic and I understood Merchant Trade to represent its economic counterpart dimension. If we are agreed, would then a production rather than commerce bonus not be more appropriate? Even all that aside I can see interesting gameplay things happening, as commerce is relatively "cheap": easily acquired, augmented, available by several means, and to nearly any city site. Production, by contrast, is precious to the extent that for some cities can just, like, not have it. This goes especially for islands which, to a Sea Power State, serve as a primary lever of strategic power, and this would be better represented in the form of production. Also,. I only just noticed Whaling Boats are excluded. Intended?

EDIT: That's an easy enough mod for me to take so I'm gonna give it a few rips and report.

 

[Dracosolon]

- Elective: +1 experience for Land units

What's the reasoning for this one? So that cavalry units can get a level with a Stable but no Barracks?

 

[TsimTsigal]

+1 exp is a bit awkward indeed. I guess the intent is to push Elective into "warmongering" civic territory, but tbf +2 exp and less bonus from Pastures (as they are already buffed by Manoralism iirc) would be a much stronger choice due to efficent synergy with Barracks.

Also it makes Elective hilariously synergetic with Totalitarism.

 

[Leoreth]

I think 2 experience would be too strong.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Is it significant if the AI prefers a civic that does *not* have the highest value shown in the log?

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Elective doesnt seem to be gaining any ground yet.

 

[Leoreth]

Is it significant if the AI prefers a civic that does *not* have the highest value shown in the log?

No. First of all the value is calculated after the decision has been made, so the situation is already different. Also, there is an inherent volatility and unreliability in these numbers so the decision is only made if the difference is significant. Lastly there are other factors involved such as the anarchy cost of switching or the diplomatic impact.

 

[Hickman888]

I'm glad to see Elective receive some much needed buffs. While away, I was thinking of a possible solution for making Elective highly desirable:

Move "+X free units" from Vassalage to Elective. And reintroduce "Military units build with surplus " to Vassalage (as it had when the civics originally got their rework in 1.18.)

With the Government civic category generally having the strongest abilities, I think it is also fair to say that "+X free units" is an incredibly strong mid-game civic effect, one that deserves a spot in the Government category, to compete with whipping and military happiness. So strong is its effect, that it had to be reintroduced into the midgame, after it was briefly tested out at Totalitarianism.

Arabians, Mongolians, Holy Rome, Vikings, Aztecs, all civilizations with pretty substantial militaries, who would benefit a lot from saving some on their militaries. At the very least, it would make elective more competitive with Despotism for these civilizations.

Two more ideas I wanted to pitch in for Elective:

• I think the "+X free units" civic effect should also apply towards Mercenaries, if that's possible. So that if you rush out a mercenary through Citizenship, and you are still below the amount of free units you are entitled to, then the cost of any mercenaries you have is only 1 /turn, not 2.
• I'd like to see Elective be given something for Thalassocratic civilizations, so that it is more appealing for civilizations such as Swahili or Polynesia (or Vikings). At the moment, Republic is the obvious choice for civilizations with lots of fishing boats. I think buffing the Islands feature would be a good idea. Maybe either +1 , or +2 /.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

AI now hates Regulated Trade, and if I'm getting the additives and multiplicatives and crap right, they're not wrong to do so. Do the modifiers not amount to little more than an extra Buffed Library and Marketplace?

 

[Dracosolon]

Damn, I didn't catch the obvious.

If you're running , the end result is based on four numbers, right?

Total = ((base * modifiers) + extra base ) * modifiers

So a modifier for can be more advantageous because it will have modifiers applied. This is especially the case in the relevant era for Regulated Trade, because you can have Library+University+National College, but usually not a lot of scientists and no modifiers, which are typically modern.

The equation is perhaps more advantageous for if you have a Trading Company in your capital, but that's a more specific combo the AI might not account for.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Whoa wait I was kinda right?! Thanks for confirmation. In other words, Reg Trade, at least without Bureaucracy, is mild ass right now?

I peaked at Lisbon from autoplay 1689 autosave just to see it at work and saw a clear Nerf. In summary the capital gets "some extra gold and research".

Ditching the makes sense thematically (though I will personally miss it), and trying something other than to disentangle it from Bureaucracy is a right move. Implementation just doesn't work.

Thematically we could imagine things like a bonus only but more (though of questionable value), stronger capital trade routes in some form, retweaking Building Speed bonuses, or extra from Resources in capital? Even just adding another or to associated improvements could be worth a try as a start.

 

[Dracosolon]

To make it stronger the bonus could be expanded to your top 3 cities or something. But I feel like there's a paradox there in that the civic is a tall boost for your capital, associated with wide colonial civs. Maybe the way to go would be a +1 in capital per colony (I think it might have been you who suggested that at one point?).

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I realised this as well in the meantime. I will come back to this.

 

[Leoreth]

If someone has a game where Totalitarianism is widely available, please share so I can use it to look into AI preferences. That would save me a lot of waiting for autoplay to get to that point.

 

[xerxess]

If someone has a game where Totalitarianism is widely available, please share so I can use it to look into AI preferences. That would save me a lot of waiting for autoplay to get to that point.

Here's one from my last Korean game. Turn 521.

 

[Leoreth]

Nice, thanks!