Statecraft - what kind, if any, changes would you like to see?

[Dawnpromise]

I agree that trade in general is something that could be buffed. How about +2 for every incoming trade route, with a +2 bonus to the sender for every CS alliance you maintain, but you gain increased tourism towards the sender per alliance as well.

An interesting idea. Perhaps move the tree's happiness to trade routes (incoming and outgoing) instead of chanceries, would help tall empires as much as wide.

Of course everyone's gotta trade, regardless of beliefs. I'm just saying that religions didn't get such heavy focus for nothing. Location is important, but I'm sure it didn't hurt to make everyone along the way submit to following similar conduct.

That goes back to how shared religion leads to a shared moral/judicial code. Would you rather trade with civ that's likely to have bandits raid your caravan en route or one where travelers are protected by holy law?

 

[tu_79]

All this spreaden talk is making me crazy. As a general guide for all medieval trees, I'll expose my feelings.

*Things that I think should stay focused:
Religion in Piety/Fealty, City States/votes in Statecraft, Tourism in Aesthetics. (*)

*Things that I think should be spread, found at least in two medieval policy trees:
Trade routes, Great People, common building bonuses (markets, castles), rare building bonuses (guilds, national wonders from the age), and something to get happiness.

*Things to be avoided by all medieval trees:
Policies that reward depending on Ancient trees (on happiness bonus, military bonus), mechanics involving other ages (archaeologists, museums), terrain dependent bonuses.

EDIT (*) Please, note that all policies give tourism one way or another, it just means that explicit tourism bonuses are just for Aesthetics.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Religion in Piety/Fealty, City States/votes in Statecraft, Tourism in Aesthetics.

I disagree on the tourism in Aesthetics part but rest agreed.

 

[CrazyG]

That goes back to how shared religion leads to a shared moral/judicial code. Would you rather trade with civ that's likely to have bandits raid your caravan en route or one where travelers are protected by holy law?

I don't where y'all are going with these examples, so I'll just say my point of view. Piety shouldn't buff trade routes, at least not external trade routes. Your example is a false dichotomy. How are bandits not raiding trade routes connected to the government being religious? Arabia was religious and traded a lot, and who else? The game already factors that trade routes spread religion. Market forces are really what drive trade. Europe wanted spices and coffee, no matter who grew them. China being a pagan nation didn't (majorly) impact British demand for tea. The USA needs oil and buys it from Muslim nations. For every real world example that shows a link between religion and trade there are a dozen that contradict it

Trade routes are already handled well. If a medieval tree should get more bonuses, I think it should be statecraft

 

[ashendashin]

I don't where y'all are going with these examples, so I'll just say my point of view. Piety shouldn't buff trade routes, at least not external trade routes. Your example is a false dichotomy. How are bandits not raiding trade routes connected to the government being religious? Arabia was religious and traded a lot, and who else? The game already factors that trade routes spread religion. Market forces are really what drive trade. Europe wanted spices and coffee, no matter who grew them. China being a pagan nation didn't (majorly) impact British demand for tea. The USA needs oil and buys it from Muslim nations. For every real world example that shows a link between religion and trade there are a dozen that contradict it

Trade routes are already handled well. If a medieval tree should get more bonuses, I think it should be statecraft

See, I'd be fine with it if the external buffs were for shared religions. Like I said, everyone's gotta trade, but it's not like there weren't internal benefits to sharing a religion. It's just that trade routes are limited to individual cities in this game, so to me it doesn't feel inappropriate for such direct trade to be enhanced by having a similar culture. Kinda like how tourism buffs trade routes, but poorly represented.

Now, in terms of market forces, the issue becomes with how the game works. Trade routes aren't affected by resources as much as other factors. We just trade resources directly and preferably send routes to where they won't get pillaged.

Edit:
Not like it matters the stuff is getting moved anyhow.

 

[tu_79]

I don't where y'all are going with these examples, so I'll just say my point of view. Piety shouldn't buff trade routes, at least not external trade routes. Your example is a false dichotomy. How are bandits not raiding trade routes connected to the government being religious? Arabia was religious and traded a lot, and who else? The game already factors that trade routes spread religion. Market forces are really what drive trade. Europe wanted spices and coffee, no matter who grew them. China being a pagan nation didn't (majorly) impact British demand for tea. The USA needs oil and buys it from Muslim nations. For every real world example that shows a link between religion and trade there are a dozen that contradict it

Trade routes are already handled well. If a medieval tree should get more bonuses, I think it should be statecraft

I agree. Shared religion is a bonus for politics, leaders of those nations understand themselves better. But that has nothing to do with commerce, other than the times when wars arise. The only thing that prevented commerce was ideology, when blockading nations became a thing. Even in those cases, there is still a black market.

Anyways, for gameplay reasons, I like Piety/Fealty getting a bonus from internal trade routes. Those are the safest when playing aggressively, so this marks Piety as a good policy tree for warmongers. Trade Routes to City States from Statecraft are less risky than other options, so still valid for warmongers. Aesthetics could give bonuses to Trade Routes to major civs, but I don't think it's necessary, since there are already two policies favoring trade routes and besides, trade route to major civs already gives major tourism influence without further bonuses.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Thoughts 2.0:

Opener - 25% reduced faith costs
Scaler - +1 Yield in owned Cities following Religion.
Organized Religion - +50% Pressure in all nearby Cities without your majority Religion, +1 Faith from Specialists. Can build Monasteries.
Divine Right - +1 Happiness and +15% Gold from Castles, +100% construction rate of Castles and Armories.
Nobility - All positive Happiness is added to your Empire-wide Culture rate. +2 Culture from Great Person Improvements.
Patronage - A Great Person of your choice appears near your Capital. +1 Happiness and +3 Production from all Guilds.
Serfdom - Doubled Border Growth and +10% Production in Cities during WLTKD and Golden Ages
Finisher - Golden Ages generate Historic Events. The Tourism modifier for shared religion increases by 25%.

Aesthetics now Artistry

Opener - 50 culture when you expend a GP (scaling with era), 5% Artist/Musician/Writer rate in all cities
Scaler - 5% AMW rate
Humanism - Amphitheaters, Opera Houses, Museums, and Broadcast Towers produce +3 Science. All Great Works produce +1 Gold and +1 Culture.
Artisanry - +25% Yields for Trade Routes originating in your Capital or a Holy City. Universities and Workshops gain +5 Production.
Antiquities - All World Wonders produce +2 Tourism. Completing an Archaeological Dig generates Tourism with all known Civilizations.
Investment - 1 Free Trade Route. +3 Gold from Markets, Temples, Caravansaries, and Harbors.
Cutural Exchange - The Tourism modifier for trade routes increases by 15%. -25% Unhappiness from Boredom.
Finisher - Doubles Tourism theming bonuses from Buildings and Wonders. Allows you to see Hidden Antiquity Sites.

Statecraft

Opener - City-States Quests Rewards increased by +30%. Resting point for Influence Influence with all City-States is increased by 20.
Scaler - Your City-State Influence Influence degrades 5% slower.
Informants - Receive one or more additional Spy Spies(based on number of City-States in game). +2 Paper for each City-State Alliance you maintain.
Merchant Confederacy - +3 Gold from Trade Routes with City-States. Gain +1 Influence (per turn) with City-States that you have a Trade Route with.
Scholasticism - Earn Great Diplomats 25% faster. Receive 33% of Allied City-State Science science output, and the Tourism modifier for open borders is increased by 20%.
Cultural Diplomacy - Resources gifted by City-States doubled and +1 Happiness from Chanceries. When you complete a Trade Route to a City-State, receive a Tourism boost with all known Civs based on your recent Culture and Tourism output.
Consulates - Gain an additional Delegate in the World Congress for every 8 City-States in the game, and the chance of rigging elections in City-States is increased by 50%.
Finisher - Allied City-States will occasionally gift you Great People. World Wonders require 1 less Policy for every 4 CS Allies you maintain

Please note that I'm using existing functions for this proposal.

Be gentle.
G

Taken from the original thread and reposted here to help discussion.

 

[Funak]

Not really. Look at the silk road. No religious similarities between Rome and China, but they traded. When major religious upheavals happened in Europe and the Middle East, the pattern of trade continued in largely the same way it had for centuries. You can find examples of countries with open religious hostilities that still trade

Did they, really? I know they bought Chinese goods, but did they actually trade with China, or did they trade with traders from the middle-east?

Only thing I really know about it is that traders were pretty much always early adopters of Islam, probably because sharing religion and by extension culture with the people they traded with helped them land better deals.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Did they, really? I know they bought Chinese goods, but did they actually trade with China, or did they trade with traders from the middle-east?

Only thing I really know about it is that traders were pretty much always early adopters of Islam, probably because sharing religion and by extension culture with the people they traded with helped them land better deals.

Actually that probably has to do with how Islam has/had a "humility tax" on non-muslims from other Abrahamic faiths.

 

[Funak]

Actually that probably has to do with how Islam has/had a "humility tax" on non-muslims from other Abrahamic faiths.

That affected trade as well? I'm actually mostly talking about Africans and Asians here btw. Not people conquered, but people trading.

 

[Dawnpromise]

That affected trade as well? I'm actually mostly talking about Africans and Asians here btw. Not people conquered, but people trading.

It has more to do with immigration really. Basically early Islam would make a deal with other monotheistic faiths (polytheism was a deal-breaker for them) to take in other religious minorities under a 'protected' status and integrate them to their society. Naturally this varied widely depending on region ran from simply being a second class citizen to being outright discriminated. Fun Fact: Many Jewish communities migrated into Islamic countries because the Muslims were more tolerant of them then many 'Christian' nations.

But yeah I'd say immigration and trade are mildly connected.

 

[thecraftybee]

I would like a strong theme behind each of the Mediaeval trees

For Statecraft, I like the themes of Trade, Espionage, CS Diplomacy and major Civ Diplomacy. Something like that when you are trading some Horses with Mongolia, instead of Genghis normally giving you 50 gold, he'd give you 60 gold if you have one point, or 100g if you have it filled out, likewise get discounts when buying stuff from him. Same way with getting open borders, or alliances, have each point in SC give you a better chance of those connections, or bigger science boosts from RAs. I think trading with Civs is an area that could be expanded significantly. Like say trade with Elizabeth and send her some Great Works to tour her cities. At the end of it your get them back and a massive Tourist boost because you have inspired her citizens with your culture. The Statecraft could then give bonuses on this and similar new types of Trade diplomacy. Or be able to use Science/Turn or Culture/Turn for use in trades as well as Gold.

I suppose these aspects would be less useful in MP games though, but I only play SP.

 

[tu_79]

I would like a strong theme behind each of the Mediaeval trees

For Statecraft, I like the themes of Trade, Espionage, CS Diplomacy and major Civ Diplomacy. Something like that when you are trading some Horses with Mongolia, instead of Genghis normally giving you 50 gold, he'd give you 60 gold if you have one point, or 100g if you have it filled out, likewise get discounts when buying stuff from him. Same way with getting open borders, or alliances, have each point in SC give you a better chance of those connections, or bigger science boosts from RAs. I think trading with Civs is an area that could be expanded significantly. Like say trade with Elizabeth and send her some Great Works to tour her cities. At the end of it your get them back and a massive Tourist boost because you have inspired her citizens with your culture. The Statecraft could then give bonuses on this and similar new types of Trade diplomacy. Or be able to use Science/Turn or Culture/Turn for use in trades as well as Gold.

I suppose these aspects would be less useful in MP games though, but I only play SP.

See the Piety/Fealty thread. The whole changes are there.

 

[Txurce]

I used to opt for Statecraft almost every time, basically because I like being influential in the WC. But gradually I've come to realize that a DV is very rare (the AI has become very good at heading them off), so unless you're Austria/Germany/Greece/Siam (10% of the civs) there's better value with Piety or Aesthetics than what I get from Statecraft's boosts to my WC actions.

Apart from historical antecedent, linking Statecraft with trade makes a tremendous amount of sense, in that it brings in more gold to your economy. All the civs considering a CV (or the need for more culture to stay afloat) will still opt for Aesthetics. Most with a wide religion (up to 50%) in every game) will have good reason to go Piety. Statecraft should be the go-to tree for the rest, and making it more overtly economical is the straight-line way to do so.

On a related note, Statecraft needs more of a buff than the other two, so I would adjust it no later than adjustments to the other trees.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I like the new changes to Statecraft in the 26th November version, but I still think the scaler is lacklustre. A possible change would be that scaler becomes +10% to yields from city states (using Siam's UA code).

 

[Deadstarre]

I think we should take @Owlbebach suggestions and give the tree Protoss, Zerg and Terran elements. and slightly re-word its title.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Some of my ideas (brainstorming) for Statecraft opener (exact numbers to be determined), if we'll ever look for another opener:
- "+50% to CS' quests, +20% production of diplomatic units in all cities",
- "+35% production of diplomatic units in all cities",
- "+1 paper for each 2 owned cities"
- "+20% production of diplomatic units in all cities, +50% production for diplomatic buildings & national wonders".

My wish for the Statecraft scaler:
"Each policy adopted increases yields from friendly&allied CS by __%."
or
"Each policy adopted increases yields and quests' rewards from CS by __%."

 

[Gazebo]

Some of my ideas (brainstorming) for Statecraft opener (exact numbers to be determined), if we'll ever look for another opener:
- "+50% to CS' quests, +20% production of diplomatic units in all cities",
- "+35% production of diplomatic units in all cities",
- "+1 paper for each 2 owned cities"
- "+20% production of diplomatic units in all cities, +50% production for diplomatic buildings & national wonders".

My wish for the Statecraft scaler:
"Each policy adopted increases yields from friendly&allied CS by __%."
or
"Each policy adopted increases yields and quests' rewards from CS by __%."

They are all tied to CSs too heavily. Statecraft needs a CS agnostic bonus. Which is what is has now.

G

 

[Mad Madigan]

I actually like the new opener for Statecraft, but not the scaler. I changed it to per-20-citizens after some initial testing because it felt too lackluster.

Taking turns with Germany, Austria, Siam, and Portugal for attempting Diplomatic victories, and I'm noticing that with all the changes made to CS quests and diplomatic units, that Siam may need a little love. Germany still has the problem of a REALLY slow start, but once they get the Hanse and Banks online in the mid-late game their economy literally explodes with gold. Wats are still really strong for Siam, but their UA (which was buffed earlier this year) just feels really lackluster. I don't know about upping their "free" initial influence with CSs, but perhaps they could also be given a bonus to their influence decay rate so that starting at 35 influence doesn't given them only a few turns of yields with newly met CSs? Giving them extra protection against influence decay gives Siam more power in the later CS diplomacy game. Alternatively, maybe the starting influence could be affected by era scaling so that you start with higher influence when meeting new CSs late in the game?

Even on Epic (the speed I usually play at) a newly met CS will decay from Friendly to Neutral in 5 turns, so the yields you get are essentially nothing save for Cultural or Religious CSs. And even then you are only getting a couple of turns taken off your Pantheon / Policy countdown.

 

[randomnub]

I actually like the new opener for Statecraft, but not the scaler. I changed it to per-20-citizens after some initial testing because it felt too lackluster.

Actually I just reported it's not working, and that's really lackluster indeed; did you sneak a different version?



Siam early yields from CS meetings disappear too quick to matter, but slower decay steps on Greece's toes. Siam scales nicely once it can build envoys but its early game is the most luck based of all diplomatic civs I think, because you really want for the right quest to pop after a CS meeting, maybe delay discovering CS (don't go next to them once you see the border) until turn 25-30.

I suggest you always get the full "first major civ friendly meeting" gift, aka a large bump of gold/culture/faith/food, and a free scout from militaristic ones.