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Would you like 4UC modmod to be integrated to the VP?

VP feels incomplete for me without this, I would like for it being included.
You can always include the 4UC mod in your game without forcing it on everyone else.

Fundamentally, there are 2 considerations whether this should be integrated:
1. Should VP be balanced around every civilization having 4 unique components?
2. Should playing with only 2 unique components remain a choice?
 
You can always include the 4UC mod in your game without forcing it on everyone else.

Fundamentally, there are 2 considerations whether this should be integrated:
1. Should VP be balanced around every civilization having 4 unique components?
2. Should playing with only 2 unique components remain a choice?

Yeah.
 
I think if a majority of people play with the modmod then it should be integrated. Why would balance considerations be centered around a version of the game that the majority of people don't even play?
 
2. Should playing with only 2 unique components remain a choice?
It will always remain a choice. The choice to add vs the choice to remove. With 4UC removed people would even have the choice to pick which 1 of 2 potential UUs/UBs to play with.

At least if people want to remove it then the modmod that performs this removal won't constantly run into compatibility issues. Whole components get swapped out at far less frequency than all of the other minor changes that constantly happen, so a 2UC mod will be stable.
 
I only see upsides for intergation. You get more toys to play with, each civ gets to display more aspect of their culture, and the game is more balanced.
 
I can say for certain that VP as a new player is already an intimidating experience. Adding 3/4UC is a lot of new things to learn all at once, and there isn't a good tutorial for it. So there's definitely a downside to integration, along with the up-front developer cost to do it.

That said, I've been somewhat on the fence. I'm not really a new VP player anymore, and I've mostly not downloaded 3/4UC out of habit. We've talked about (and mostly shot down) the notion of a separate 3/4UC mod added to the package of mods downloaded for VP, and for good reason that's not really ideal. But what if we packaged a mod that removed the two new components instead; sort of reverse the problem? Then we can have a new-player disclaimer that gameplay balance is centered around 3/4 UC, but if you want a softer onboarding you can enable the mod that slims down the content.

This also bypasses one of the issues with split 2UC / 3/4UC which was needing to duplicate text changes etc., does that apply in the same way if you're just stripping it out?
 
When 4UC in base VP start interacting with one another, it won't be easy to make a mod to remove two of them.
 
I'll consider supporting 4UC integration if it will be compatible with alternate component names
It’s already fully supported. The guy who wrote alternative component names for VP already wrote like 40% of 4UC. The support has been baked in from the start.
 
When 4UC in base VP start interacting with one another, it won't be easy to make a mod to remove two of them.
yeah this is my thought as well.

In theory a modmod to remove 4UC sounds great. In practice I have a feeling it will have its own problems and capabilities that need to be maintained.

I think one way or the other, there is no going back here. We should commit to the path set by the vote.

Now maybe I'm wrong, and the code is done in a way that makes removal quite easy, and it never becomes a problem. But I would NOT vote with that assumption, if you are voting yes to 4UC because you don't want it, but you think there will be an easy way to remove it....that's the wrong way to vote. If you want it, vote yes for it. But if you don't want to use it, vote No, don't assume someone will come along and fix it for you.
 
Now maybe I'm wrong, and the code is done in a way that makes removal quite easy, and it never becomes a problem.
deleting BUILDING_01 through to BUILDING_43 from all relevant tables is a trivial amount of work. Unless a component is swapped out entirely or relabelled inside the database it would never break. Unlike the current 4UC mod which has to have text and values updated for every single version for multiple components at once.

The work and stability of a mod moving from 4UC down to 2UC is not in the same zip code as adding new stuff, and anyone saying otherwise is lying through their teeth.

At this point I have lost patience with this false equivalence being made. It minimizes the hours upon hours I have put into maintaining the 4UC mod.
 
deleting BUILDING_01 through to BUILDING_43 from all relevant tables is a trivial amount of work. Unless a component is swapped out entirely or relabelled inside the database it would never break. Unlike the current 4UC mod which has to have text and values updated for every single version for multiple components at once.

The work and stability of a mod moving from 4UC down to 2UC is not in the same zip code as adding new stuff
This is correct, it is much easier to delete database entries than to add lots of new content.

and anyone saying otherwise is lying through their teeth.

At this point I have lost patience with this false equivalence being made. It minimizes the hours upon hours I have put into maintaining the 4UC mod.

Moderator Action: Or they're misinformed. It's more difficult for non-modders in particular to conceptualize this. While I understand your frustration, there's no need to get hostile.
 
Ultimately if the modders feel confident that the integration would be done in a way that makes a modmod to remove components "trivial", than I am happy to be corrected and we can make that very clear in the final voting thread.

I just want to be assured that means in our integrations we are moving all of the custom functions out of 4UC so that those files will literally just be "art work X, and reference function from main file Y".
 
Then, just make the proposal for integration already include the remove the components toggle (as it is with espionage, events or vassallage)
 
Also that precludes giving players a choice of what component they want to keep
 
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deleting BUILDING_01 through to BUILDING_43 from all relevant tables is a trivial amount of work. Unless a component is swapped out entirely or relabelled inside the database it would never break. Unlike the current 4UC mod which has to have text and values updated for every single version for multiple components at once.
That won't bring back the Floating Gardens, for instance.
 
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