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[NFP] Statue of Zeus

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Lily_Lancer, Sep 23, 2020.

  1. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    400 Prod for 3 archers, 3 spearmen, 1 battering ram and 3 gold per turn, also +50% towards anti-cav.

    The soldiers worth 440 production, however if we take 50% card into consideration they worth 315 production altogether.
    Two problems:

    1:Spearmen are not cost-efficient, we seldom build them.
    2: The units are likely to obsolete when Statue of Zeus is finished, reducing their value severely.

    As for the +50% towards anti-cav, usually we don't hard build units in mid-late games, because it takes time to build and move them to the frontline and they're likely to obsolete when finally moved to the battlefield. We prefer upgrading or Grandmaster Chapel purchasing.

    maybe for chopping Karl for Sweden or Impi for Zulu? Macedon can convert 50% production to science in every city now, instead of 37.5% and only 50% for seaside cities.

    I don't think the wonder is game-changing, except for China. China may be quite good at early war with this wonder.

    Another problem-- Are the units plain archers/spearmen, or can they be UUs? e.g. Pitati Archers?
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
    Reman likes this.
  2. Some Random Guy

    Some Random Guy Chieftain

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    Can't forget the additional cost of building encampment plus barracks (guess you could just buy this) which makes the numbers even worse

    But yes it seems to mostly be beneficial for the Zulu, Greece maybe if you go all in, a niche Sweden playstyle or maybe China but there are so many other things I would argue you want to use builders on as China but maybe i'm missing something
     
  3. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir King

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    Qin is already quite good if playing the builder ability right, the only thing Qin is lacking early is military. And now Qin simply doesn't lack military.

    Nothing game-changing (TBH why do people have the idea that there will be non-new-civ game-changers at this point) but icing on the cake.
     
  4. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Who's "we"? Sure if you play online it will be obsolete, but that's you.

    Besides it's contradictory. +50% towards anti-cav makes building anti-cav more appealing.
     
  5. Linklite

    Linklite Prince

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    Looking at stats...I don't know.

    Warrior - 40 prod, 20CS+10 against anticavalry.
    Spearman - 32.5 prod, 25CS+10 against cavalry.

    It makes them more reasonable, although they would still lose against the most common enemy. I think the whole 440 prod to build the wonder in the first place kind of kills it. You're also losing that production time at the beginning of the game - for me that time is at a real premium, trying to build districts, plus other wonders.

    I'm not saying that it is a complete no go, but it isn't overly appealing. If it were a discount for warriors, then I would, but I find that I only build spearmen as a specific response to a cavalry attack, at which point I want them now, so I buy them.. Personally, this doesn't fit the profile. I'll only benbuolding it rarely or when my cities run out of things to do, if it's still around.
     
  6. RohirrimElf

    RohirrimElf Emperor

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    There are other multipliers when building wonders of course. And +3 gold could add up on the long run. There are more civs besides China that can benefit from this wonder. Like greece or egypt. I do think it is a situational wonder not used in any situation.it is not that good like a forbidden palace. But it could be helpfull.

    As using unit mods i dont find anti cav units to be to shabby. I normally want them on my flanks. Preferably 1 or 2. I dont tend to use them on their own but in a main battle line. At some situations you are glad to be able to build spearman when there is not enough iron available. Just to push on that one good iron city. It can potentially be game saving.
     
    8housesofelixir and AntSou like this.
  7. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    @Linklite

    Anti-cav does need some adjustments. I see this as them signaling they're looking into it. They know it's one of the most common complaints, so I'd be disappointed if we got to the end of NFP with no adjustments to anticav.
     
  8. Vandlys

    Vandlys Prince

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    Status of Zeus? It's complicated...
     
  9. Vilvatiktan

    Vilvatiktan Chieftain

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    IKR, He's married to Hera Moderator Action: snip

    Moderator Action: Please mind your language and don't evade the auto censor --NZ
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2020
  10. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    I'm a lot more casual than Lily, but yeah, anti cav is useless. I can't even get myself to play civs with ant cav UUs.
     
  11. Hakan-i Cihan

    Hakan-i Cihan Emperor

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    Along with this wonder, people were hoping for a boost for anti-cav in some way. Maybe that could happen...?
     
    8housesofelixir likes this.
  12. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    So everyone thinks anticav is bad. What could be done to make them better?
     
    Ondolindë likes this.
  13. Breadsmith

    Breadsmith Warlord

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    Enforcing their ZoC against cav would be a start. It's hard to do anything to a unit you can't catch.
     
  14. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    A bit OT but making melee more expensive and anti-cav cheaper? Improve the promotion tree?
     
  15. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Actually, it is not bad. It just doesn't satisfy the position of a human player. In Civ6 due to the difference of intelligence(AI being too bad), human player and AI are not on the same position. Human players are more aggressive, prefer more condition-based high bonuses, while AIs are defensive and prefer stable defense bonuses.

    Georgia and Mapuche, and also Gaul are hard to deal when played by AIs. However they're not good in the hand of human players. Cavalry units are what human players use more often, because of their high strength and movements. However, for AIs, anti-cav are the best units to defense against human players.

    In general, in a game when both sides are of similar intelligence, anti-cavs are not bad. They're bad just because they cannot exploit fully the "intelligence difference" of human players and AIs. (or a high-skilled human player vs. a low-skilled one)
     
    the_sun, DanQuayle, bbbt and 2 others like this.
  16. KayAU

    KayAU King

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    How about giving them some ability related to hindering movement? Such as for example:
    • Units starting their turn next to hostile anti-cav lose 1 movement point (but must still be able to attack the anti-cav unit)
    or
    • Units moving away from hostile anti-cav take damage
     
  17. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Not sure if there's any point in going over them all over again. I remember seeing lots of ideas in several threads, and I've only been around for about a year. The one above about enforcing ZOC has been mentioned before, though that seems to make Light Cav a bit useless.

    @Sostratus might have a few ideas. I'm sure I've read something before.
     
    Meluhhan and 8housesofelixir like this.
  18. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    Pikeman is in weird spot of tech tree, and anti - cav always suffer some sort of power creep (lower CS than next generation melee unit). But no resource is good.
     
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  19. Onii-chan

    Onii-chan Prince

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    Well it certainly doesn't sound like the worst wonder in the game but also not something I see myself building particularly often. A few select civs would probably be interested in it but only a handful. Should be a fairly niche wonder, but there's nothing wrong with that per se
     
  20. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    I dont think anti-cav needs any kind of major buffs. We must remember that you can spam them because you dont need strategic resources to build them. They should be weaker than melee class units, because of this. Also they are meant to be counter to cavalry units, not any kind of jack of all trades. Also I would argue that they have very good promotions.

    They were absolutely horrible at launch. They are not anymore IMO. Lets see some the buffs they have received:
    - In GS Pikeman got its gold maintenance reduced and their production cost lowered.
    - Military Tactics (Pikeman tech) is not leaf tech anymore.
    - In R&F Pike and shot was added.
    - They benefit from Oligarchy bonus. At launch they didnt.
    - They benefit from military policy cards that buff production. At launch they didnt.
    (these are the buffs I remember, might be more)
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
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