Stealth buffs and nerfs

[Ravellion]

Having to wait a little longer before I can actually play, I thought it might be interesting to list and discuss some stealth nerfs and buffs. Stealth buffs are when a unit, wonder, ability etc. stays the same, while the options that unit, ability etc. normally competes with have become weaker. Stealth nerfs are the opposite; the ability stays the same, but the alternatives are stronger. Here are some that I have gleaned from reading these threads and well of souls etc.

Stealth Buffs
- Kamehameha's Moai statues still give the same culture, but building culture has become more scarce and landmarks don't even exist before archaeology.
- The liberty policy tree has gained in power because of three reasons: 1) There is a lot less cash to buy settlers and workers with in the early game, 2) There are more things to produce in the early game (caravan's and their support buildings), 3) policy acquisition is faster, possibly gaining the free worker and settler a few turns earlier.
- Russia's siberian riches ability can gain the extra hammers from iron more quickly.
- Byzantium should more easily gain a religion through the change in piety, helping them make use of their UA.
- America and England should have an edge in protecting their land and sea trade routes respectively due to extra sight/movement.
- The Honor policy opener has gained in strength since it gives you some indication at how high risk your trade routes are from barbs.
- Extra cash being scarce, Spain's UA should become slightly better. Even if you are not first to a natural wonder, a free 100 is apparently no longer anything to sneeze at. A free 500 would now be massive, as I understand it.

Stealth nerfs
- The Netherlands' UA has lost a lot of power due to luxury resource trading now taking a back seat to caravan trading.
- Glory of Rome might be more difficult to make use of now money is scarce; building all the buildings everywhere will make you go bankrupt quickly.
- Arabia's Bazaar's doubling resources should be less strong; see the Dutch.

I hope we can add to this list and discuss it (it is nothing more than a start, obviously); I like the way all subsystems in the civilization series affect each other and this is a great way to look at it, I think.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Liberty is also a bit weaker because it's the only tree where you can't buy great people with faith (compare to Tradition, where you can buy Great Engineers).

 

[Inhalaattori]

In my eyes Netherlands clearly is the weakest Civ.

I see Rome as possibly even stronger than before, because of legions. Iron is revealed earlier and Iron working is now cheaper tech. Also note that legions can be used for road building which saves you money.

 

[Talcove]

Liberty is also a bit weaker because it's the only tree where you can't buy great people with faith (compare to Tradition, where you can buy Great Engineers).

You can't buy any great people in the industrial era with it. With all of the other policy tree finishers you can buy great people in the industrial era, with the liberty tree finisher you automatically get a free great person, and really early in the game! Getting a great scientist with that really snowballs into having good science scores for the rest of the game.

 

[Monthar]

Just because you can't get lump sum gold trades without a DoF does not make the Netherlands' UA or the Bazaar less useful. You can still trade for GPT right away or for other luxuries. In fact the Netherlands' UA is even better when you trade you last copy of a lux for an AI's lux, which you can do without a DoF, because doing so puts you ahead by 2 happiness, letting you expand or grow more, or hit a golden age sooner.

 

[Monthar]

You can't buy any great people in the industrial era with it. With all of the other policy tree finishers you can buy great people in the industrial era, with the liberty tree finisher you automatically get a free great person, and really early in the game! Getting a great scientist with that really snowballs into having good science scores for the rest of the game.

A great merchant is also a good idea now, because planting it not only boosts your gpt for working the tile, it also boosts the gold you get from trade routes.

 

[Martinus]

All civilizations that get UBs in general and those which give gold in particular become stronger (compared to civilizations which have two UUs or an UU and an UI), because UBs usually cost no maintenance. This also buffs certain synergies with policies and religion (especially civilizations that have UBs replacing temples or shrines can end up with quite powerful bonuses to these buildings from certain Religion tenets and Piety policies).

Honor also gets a stealth buff because it gives additional benefits to defensive buildings which usually have no maintenace costs.

 

[Ryoga]

Money is not scarce, you get even more than before if you get all your trade routes running and you get even the money of trade routes going to you.

The scarcity of money can only be felt at start but a lot less than I originally thought.

 

[Inhalaattori]

Honor also gets a stealth buff because it gives additional benefits to defensive buildings which usually have no maintenace costs.

Honor does not provide any benefits to defensive buildings. Not anymore.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

A great merchant is also a good idea now, because planting it not only boosts your gpt for working the tile, it also boosts the gold you get from trade routes.

I would kill for a Great Merchant to make a Customs House in the game I'm playing right now!

 

[andrew00100]

imo BNW just made early game a lot harder

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

imo BNW just made early game a lot harder

I didn't find it harder, so much as dull. Money is so hard to get (especially when your trade partners are all spread out) that you can't afford as many buildings and units as you could in G&K.

I ended up building wonders that I normally don't just so my building and unit maintenance didn't overwhelm my meager income. Usually I didn't complete the wonders because the AI beat me, and then I got mass gold. The only thing I could do properly was expand, so I have several small cities with few buildings and just enough units.

The AI seemed to be suffering similarly, but they appear to be going tall rather than wide, for the most part. No wars, no denouncements, few friendships. I'm the only one sending trade routes to other civs (because I can finally reach them).

 

[Securion]

Sounds perfect to me. Slow start and then it builds up... Excellent. Good work Firaxis.

 

[hr_oskar]

Nitpick correction: A "stealth" nerf/buff is an undocumented change to game features, not what you are talking about here (which might be called "indirect" nerfs/buffs).

On topic, I would also disagree that the Netherlands are all that weak now; they can still trade for gpt, and also lump sum trading is still possible -- you just need a DoF for it, which you can very well get if you behave well.

 

[Calouste]

I would kill for a Great Merchant to make a Customs House in the game I'm playing right now!

Don't know if settling a Great Merchant is effective. Haven't had a normal Great Merchant yet, but the Merchant of Venice you get from Optics gives 60 influence and 800 gold if you use it on a normal trade mission. 4gpt doesn't look like a lot in comparison.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Don't know if settling a Great Merchant is effective. Haven't had a normal Great Merchant yet, but the Merchant of Venice you get from Optics gives 60 influence and 800 gold if you use it on a normal trade mission. 4gpt doesn't look like a lot in comparison.

MoV gets 2x, so a normal GM would give 30 inf, and 400 gold

4 gpt Might be better (especially as it gets multiplied by markets, gives a bonus to trade routes from the city, and can be increased to 5 or 9 with tech/Ideology)

Depends on the circumstance

 

[adwcta]

MoV gets 2x, so a normal GM would give 30 inf, and 400 gold. 4 gpt Might be better (especially as it gets multiplied by markets, gives a bonus to trade routes from the city, and can be increased to 5 or 9 with tech/Ideology)

Depends on the circumstance

Yeah, the first thing I did when I got a market in my capital was pump out a Great Merchant and plant him on grass.

Higher gpt output from your capital also attracts more trade routes, so you get even more gold (and, since you're behind in science in the beginning, beakers, and religion spread, especially effective if it's your holy city with a grand temple).

 

[marshallfreddy]

I didn't find it harder, so much as dull. Money is so hard to get (especially when your trade partners are all spread out) that you can't afford as many buildings and units as you could in G&K.

I ended up building wonders that I normally don't just so my building and unit maintenance didn't overwhelm my meager income. Usually I didn't complete the wonders because the AI beat me, and then I got mass gold. The only thing I could do properly was expand, so I have several small cities with few buildings and just enough units.

The AI seemed to be suffering similarly, but they appear to be going tall rather than wide, for the most part. No wars, no denouncements, few friendships. I'm the only one sending trade routes to other civs (because I can finally reach them).

It is a lot harder in that much more micro managing needs to be done and with fewer cities and gold being rare early. This limits options and makes early game as boring and dull as late late game in G&K. For those like domination play styles, this is a step backwards. For those that like other play styles, this is a step forward.

 

[marshallfreddy]

Sounds perfect to me. Slow start and then it builds up... Excellent. Good work Firaxis.

And I am beginning to hate it so we will have to agree to disagree on this one.