Steam - The 'somewhat explain it all guide'

[innonimatu]

Did you know that Civ5 uses the library Steamworks? That this is in fact the reason for integration with Steam? Replacing Steamworks with something else would also require rewriting of software, as replacing boost will.

You can be mad at Valve for requiring the Steam client to be run when not using online functionality, but that's how it works. They do provide Steamworks otherwise free of charge to the developers. Something I'd appreciate enormously if I was to develop a game now.

The point is, Steam isn't just something that's been added in the end of the dev process for DRM purposes. It's there because the game uses the Steamworks libraries.

Steamworks is useless for single-player games. And even for multiplayer its online features are mostly junk in place to justify the use of steam - they benefit the game publisher and Valve, not the costumer, unless feeding people advertisements (the whole purpose being the sale of other games via steam) and entangling them in yet another "social network" were a benefit. It's not for me, I absolutely HATE the concept of online "social networks", and won't ever have one shoved down my throat just for the sake of playing a game which had no use for it in the first place.

Multiplayer "support" for ease of finding other players can easily be supported by game browsers integrated into each specific game, and that has been done in the past with many games. How hard is it to spec a network protocol to do that, and code a client library and server? Anyway, do keep up the PR work, you will fool some people.

 

[eireksten]

Steamworks is useless for single-player games. And even for multiplayer its online features are mostly junk in place to justify the use of steam - they benefit the game publisher and Valve, not the costumer, unless feeding people advertisements (the whole purpose being the sale of other games via steam) and entangling them in yet another "social network" were a benefit. It's not for me, I absolutely HATE the concept of online "social networks", and won't ever have one shoved down my throat just for the sake of playing a game which had no use for it in the first place.

Multiplayer "support" for ease of finding other players can easily be supported by game browsers integrated into each specific game, and that has been done in the past with many games. How hard is it to spec a network protocol to do that, and code a client library and server? Anyway, do keep up the PR work, you will fool some people.

WTH? I never claimed that this couldn't be done in any other way. I never even claimed that it was a good choice. I simply wrote that Civ5 uses the Steamworks library, and that it therefore is integrated with Steam on a closer basis than just adding Steam as a wrapper.

 

[Vordrax]

Steamworks is useless for single-player games. And even for multiplayer its online features are mostly junk in place to justify the use of steam - they benefit the game publisher and Valve, not the costumer, unless feeding people advertisements (the whole purpose being the sale of other games via steam) and entangling them in yet another "social network" were a benefit. It's not for me, I absolutely HATE the concept of online "social networks", and won't ever have one shoved down my throat just for the sake of playing a game which had no use for it in the first place.

I never play the England Civ! I demand it taken out! I personally don't plan on using the feature and demand that it be taken out, regardless of how anyone else feels! Also Macemen, I never use them, I only use Archers. Get rid of Macemen! WHAT, are you saying that there are people who use them? RUBBISH! I don't care what anyone else wants, only put into the game what *I* think is important!

 

[Vordrax]

I can't see where.

Then you didn't read my post Not that I'm surprised.

Yes, they could program the ability to cook a cup of coffee into it...

Already been answered- can Windows cook (boil?) your coffee for you?

But they force me for this game.

I don't remember anyone holding a gun up to your head and saying "Buy this game!"

Wait, good catch, that's what i'm advertising here .

So you frequent a lot of forums for products you have no interest in? That might be misconstrued as trolling to some, careful!

Seriously: I don't care about DirectX at this point, because it does not force me into a contract with a data (doesn't matter which data) collecting company.
If it did, i would not use it.

Yes, I'm sure Microsoft doesn't collect any information on DirectX users. Conversely, I'm sure Steam has already stolen your social security number and credit card information long before you ever actually heard the name. Valve is a SCARY WIZARD!

 

[Chalks]

Haven't checked in the last time, i don't know .


Seriously: I don't care about DirectX at this point, because it does not force me into a contract with a data (doesn't matter which data) collecting company.
If it did, i would not use it.

Steam's data collection is OPT IN.

Do you not understand what those words mean or something or do you have some sort of immunity to facts?

Repeating the same lies over and over doesn't actually make your argument look any better!

 

[Willem]

Valve are the gods of the FPS world and everything that they do is perfect or reaches a high level of fit and finish .

You almost had me convinced until that part. You're clearly in love with Valve and so can't be the least bit impartial in your review.

 

[innonimatu]

I never play the England Civ! I demand it taken out! I personally don't plan on using the feature and demand that it be taken out, regardless of how anyone else feels! Also Macemen, I never use them, I only use Archers. Get rid of Macemen! WHAT, are you saying that there are people who use them? RUBBISH! I don't care what anyone else wants, only put into the game what *I* think is important!

You don't like the english civilization, you don't play with the english civilization - as a player you have that choice.

You don't like Steam... what do you do?

 

[Willem]

In case you didn't notice, Civ 4 uses the boost libraries. Yes, libraries -- as in computer source code. These libraries are integrated tightly into the Civ 4 binary, and are 3rd party software.

There's a big difference here. Those are routines that are used by a wide variety of programs. They may be third party but they're commonly used enough to be considered part of the OS. With Steam on the other hand, Civ 5 may be the only reason why some people needs to run those routines. Comparing thses two things is like comparing apples to oranges and completely irrelevant.

 

[innonimatu]

Steam's data collection is OPT IN.

Do you not understand what those words mean or something or do you have some sort of immunity to facts?

That's a lie. Even Valve's privacy policy, which is not binding and can be changed by them at will, admits as much:

Collection and Use of Information
By using Valve's online sites and products, users agree that Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information, as defined below. Valve may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Valve shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.
[...]

And even their "promotional email" is opt-out:

Choice/Opt-out
Valve gives users the option of discontinuing receipt of promotional email communications from Valve. Instructions for discontinuing receipt of promotional email communications from Valve will be provided in such subsequent email communications to users.

 

[Willem]

So you frequent a lot of forums for products you have no interest in?

Obviously he did have an interest in the product until the announcement about Steam came out. Same here. I had planned on buying the game on release day, but I'll wait at least until I come across another game that requires me to have Steam on my system. Then I'll think about it. I don't play online, download games or even chat so I'll have absolutely no use for the software other than to run Civ 5. And that's just not a good enough reason to install it in the first place, and go through the hassle of setting up yet another online account.

That's a lie. Even Valve's privacy policy, which is not binding and can be changed by them at will, admits as much:

All the more reason to avoid them like the plaque. If they won't even ensure the privacy of the information I provide them, then I won't have anything to do with them. It amazes it how easily people give up their privacy these days, it's no wonder why identity theft is such a booming business.

PS: It's beginning to look like George Orwell was just a century off.

 

[Chalks]

That's a lie. Even Valve's privacy policy, which is not binding and can be changed by them at will, admits as much:

Steam's hardware survey is opt in - the information required to run the service obviously isn't. His implication that they are an "information gathering company" when the only information they gather for reasons other than running their services is opt-in is ridiculous.

Oh, and congrats on doing a Ctrl+F and finding an irrelevant mention of "opt out".

 

[Willem]

His implication that they are an "information gathering company" when the only information they gather for reasons other than running their services is opt-in is ridiculous.

If they reserve the right to pass along any information they gather to third-parties, then the implication is not ridiculous at all. In case you weren't aware, some companies will pay alot of money for your internet information. That's why people are up to their eyeballs in spam these days.

 

[Chalks]

If they reserve the right to pass along any information they gather to third-parties, then the implication is not ridiculous at all. In case you weren't aware, some companies will pay alot of money for your internet information. That's why people are up to their eyeballs in spam these days.

No, they reserve the right to pass on aggregate and anonymous information along to third parties that cannot be used to identify the individual or to interact with them.

Did you even check their usage policy or did you read the quoted thing that ends with "Valve shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties" and come to that conclusion? Or did you just stop reading before that part?

 

[Rebel44]

If they reserve the right to pass along any information they gather to third-parties, then the implication is not ridiculous at all. In case you weren't aware, some companies will pay alot of money for your internet information. That's why people are up to their eyeballs in spam these days.

People are up to their eyeballs in spam because 90% of users are too ******** to secure their PCs.

 

[Willem]

Did you even check their usage policy or did you read the quoted thing that ends with "Valve shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties" and come to that conclusion? Or did you just stop reading before that part?

Then perhaps you'd care to include those sections then. If I'm not interested in their service in any way, why would I bother going there and looking up the policy?

 

[Chalks]

Then perhaps you'd care to include those sections then. If I'm not interested in their service in any way, why would I bother going there and looking up the policy?

Yeah, why would you bother going to look up their policy before talking about it as if you were an expert! Since when has it been a requirement to posses any knowledge on the subject before mouthing off about it on the internet? Good point!!

innonimatu just posted the relevant section on the subject anyway! But apparently reading more than one reply into the thread before opening your mouth is overrated too.

You want a bit of repetition and more quotes? My pleasure!

Valve may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Valve shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.

"Aggregate information" [...] does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular user.

"Individual information" [does not] personally identif[y] any user or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any user unless agreed to by the user in advance of such communication.

Valve may use customer contact information provided by users to send information about Valve, including news about product updates, contests, events, and other promotional materials, but only if the users agree to receive such communications.

Valve will not share personally identifiable information with any third party unless the user agrees to such disclosure in advance.

While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site.

Valve may allow third parties performing services under contract with Valve to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services. In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this privacy policy.

Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates under agreement with Valve. If an associate of Valve is collecting such personally identifiable information within one of our products or online sites, Valve will make users aware of this at the time the information is gathered. [...] If a user does not want to provide this information, the user may choose to opt out of providing this information.

Valve may release personally identifiable information to comply with court orders or laws that require us to disclose such information

 

[LDiCesare]

Even if Valve are to be trusted, they say they can give that info to third parties, and even though they are supposedly bound by the same rules, we don't know these third parties and have little reason to trust them as nothing in Valve's policy allows us to check which third parties were given the information, so if personal information is leaked by a third party, it may be impossible for the customer to track it down and find out that it was leaked through Valve (note the third party would have broken its contract with Valve too, but this kind of things happens). Concerns about privacy are perfectly justified.
Furthermore, it's exaggerated to say that Steam's opt-out. It usually is, but it is not always the case:

for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product

. There's no information whether Civ will or will not be part of these 'certain products'.

 

[eireksten]

If that becomes the case, I think it's safe to assume we should complain to 2K/Firaxis and not to Valve...

 

[Willem]

People are up to their eyeballs in spam because 90% of users are too ******** to secure their PCs.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. You're confusing spam with viruses obviously. You sign on to a site like this one, entering your email address in the process. That site sells that information to a spam service who in turn offers themselves to businesses and sends out wave after wave of spam on their behalf. Or they'll further sell all those addresses to companies who want to send you spam on their own. But it's not just addresses, there's all sorts of information about you that's being gathered and used by businesses everytime you register with some site on the internet.

 

[Willem]

Yeah, why would you bother going to look up their policy before talking about it as if you were an expert! Since when has it been a requirement to posses any knowledge on the subject before mouthing off about it on the internet? Good point!!

Please quote me where I mention that I was an expert. It's quite obvious that I was responding to the previous post with the limited info, so what's your problem?

But apparently reading more than one reply into the thread before opening your mouth is overrated too.

Keep up with this attitude and you'll have this thread locked down pretty quick too. Thank you for that BTW. Here it was supposed to be a petition thread for those us who didn't want it included, but Steam fanatics like you just had to come in and disrupt it for the rest of us. You quite obviously can't accept the fact that someone might have a different opinion about something than you and you'll do everything you can to stamp out any dissenting views. Frankly I've had just about enough of your Steam evangelism and I'm just going to put you on my ignore list so I don't have to put up with it anymore.