Still having difficulty on Monarch

[DarkSchneider]

Well I was able to beat Monarch once with the latest patch, but generally, the chop rush and worker steal fixes have pretty much cut out all viable early game options.

MY latest start only had three decent expansion spots before I ran into my first opponent, I massed troups at the border and he declared war on me. It took some time to beat all of his troups, but I got most of them with minimal losses. I healed my units, and then moved them and my newly built trebuchets to his closest city. After the defenses were down, I assulted the city, all the while killing the knights that he all of a sudden had dozens of with my war elephants.

I finally sacked the city, killed all of the units that were exposed by the sacking of the city, and made peace with him for 600 gold + the world map. The very next turn Shaka declared war on me and virtually all of my forces were wiped out by his knights, which he also had dozens of.

The problem I keep having with Monarch difficulty is this:
You can't expand to much more than five cities in the early going, lest administrative costs are too high. With only five cities, you can't really produce enough units to wage war against a militaristic civilization. You also can't get a tech lead due to all of the AI bonuses. So what paths are still open to you for victory?

 

[PericlesOfAthen]

You say that without five cities it is difficult to raise an army sufficient to attack a militaristic AI. Sounds like you might not be using whipping and chopping enough and maybe you're attacking a little late. On Monarch I usually expand to three cities maybe four and then whip and chop till I have a few chariots and spears and around 8 ax men. That force is usually sufficient to attack a weak, close AI usually around 1000BC at the earliest or at the very latest 1AD. I try to target an AI who 1) doesn't have horses or copper or both 2) doesn't have much culture which boosts their cities defense 3) is close by. Of course, this is general advice, sometimes an early attack is not possible. Your neighbors are to far away or already have copper and axmen or a strong culture in their cities or maybe you are Industrial and have some wonders you want to go after instead. I hope this advice helps.

 

[DarkSchneider]

With this particular setup, there was no copper next to any of my first four cities. The closest city to me was on a hill, and the land was shaped so that was the only city that could be attacked directly.

Also, I was going to try for getting the Oracle, and I was amazed to see it built in 1500 BC, shortly before Stonehenge!

 

[PericlesOfAthen]

Around what year did you start your attack? Since you didn't have copper near did you beeline for iron working or construction? You mentioned that your enemies were coming after you with knights. Sounds like your first war was pretty late. In Monarch and above, the AI just gets stronger and stronger so it is key to attack as early as possible so you can keep up.

 

[zbyszke]

Around what year did you start your attack? Since you didn't have copper near did you beeline for iron working or construction? You mentioned that your enemies were coming after you with knights. Sounds like your first war was pretty late. In Monarch and above, the AI just gets stronger and stronger so it is key to attack as early as possible so you can keep up.

I agree, you should be able to wipe out first AI with catapults latest (trebuchets are OK to destroy AI number 2 and 3 .

 

[futurehermit]

You attacked too late, plain and simple. No copper means beeline to construction and mass catapults and support units. 3-5 cities is sufficient early on and then you expand through your closest neighbour.

Shaka is very, very difficult. He's a powerhouse and unlike many of the other AIs, he knows how to wage a war. You have two options with him: Hit him hard early and take him out or at least cripple him OR make him your best friend forever (bff). That means gifting him alphabet early, the turn you research it, sharing a religion, etc. You want to get him to pleased asap and then work toward being bff (bribing him to a mutual war is a great idea).

You do NOT want to be on the receiving end of a war declaration from him--watch your diplomacy!!! At the very very least you want to bribe him to attack someone else to keep him off your back.

 

[frob2900]

Shaka is very, very difficult. He's a powerhouse and unlike many of the other AIs, he knows how to wage a war. You have two options with him: Hit him hard early and take him out or at least cripple him OR make him your best friend forever (bff).

This is so true. Shaka is a law unto himself. Sometimes he fizzles but if he is taking off he must be dealt with early at any cost. In my mind there are "Shaka present" games and "Shaka not present" games.

I always include his specifically, to keep me on my toes.

Montezuma is generally a joke compared to Shaka (imho)

 

[r_rolo1]

Shaka is very, very difficult. He's a powerhouse and unlike many of the other AIs, he knows how to wage a war. You have two options with him: Hit him hard early and take him out or at least cripple him OR make him your best friend forever (bff). That means gifting him alphabet early, the turn you research it, sharing a religion, etc. You want to get him to pleased asap and then work toward being bff (bribing him to a mutual war is a great idea).

You do NOT want to be on the receiving end of a war declaration from him--watch your diplomacy!!! At the very very least you want to bribe him to attack someone else to keep him off your back.

I had a game sometime ago in a Standart Pangea with Rome. I wanted to prove myself that I could play Rome without Preat rush ( I know, heretic ....) and REXed almost a third of the continent
My only neighbour was.... Shaka. I somehow overlooked him and let him grow and eat some neighbours ( he was almost not teching). Sudently I go to the power graph and I see a sharp spike on the guy's power. WTH? Shaka had captured the mids and "adquired" MilTrad and Rifling from a ex-foe now vassal. Shaka + Mids = Police State, and we know how the guy is peaceful . It didn't take long for the the guy to try his luck on me... Lets say that game teached me how to deal with a cav + rifle rush . In the end Shaka was in a far away away polar island, eating whale

 

[futurehermit]

Monty is more of a psycho. Shaka is controlled, powerful aggression. Handling him is no small feat. Good job.

 

[r_rolo1]

It wasn't that hard ( well , it looks easy after knowing the trick ): loads of cannons to counter his enourmous stacks ( first time I saw a 50 + AI stack below Emperor ), whip rifles/grens in border cities ( my thought was that I simply didn't had time to bear 2/3 turns of anarchy to be able to draft) and beeline AL for the infantry. Shaka was almost not teching ( he was overexpanded, with lots of crappy conquered cities, and his vassals were badly beaten, so no tech aid to him ) and when infantry came to the battlefield things started to go bad to his side ....

 

[obsolete]

Shaka almost always has hardly any teching going on. I"m not sure why, perhaps firaxis rigged him to spend too much on culture, or bribery money, or he just stockpiles it too much, or has too many expensive civics and units to maintain?

Anyhow, seems you are starting your wars wayyyyy too late. Even waiting for cats is pretty late, but Tribuchets?

 

[futurehermit]

if you don't have copper or a horse-based uu, it makes good sense a lot of time to tech to construction, especially if you have ivory.

 

[DarkSchneider]

No, I did not have Ivory either. I traded away two luxury resources to the French for Ivory. In terms of bee-lining to Iron working if you do not have copper, I wasn't even sure that I had Iron! I did get construction relatively early, and I did have a number of catapults and later trebuchets.

Actually, the funny thing was, the first guy that attacked me was HAnnibal, and I was having the hardest time against his Numidian Cavalry and Crossbowmen stacks. I had pretty much all swordsmen/axemen/spearmen at that point and having a Cavalry and Crossbowman on the same tile is very difficult to attack!

I don't think I attacked all that late, I would certainly have gone after him earlier with copper, but you don't get copper every game.

 

[Morgrad]

Goal #1: Get copper and whip/chop/build lots of axemen.

If there is no copper, get horses ASAP for loads of chariots while researching IW. Then see step 1.

If there's no Iron, beeline construction for catapults.

If there is no copper, iron, or horses, then a construction beeline is the *only* way you're going to avoid hideous death - but mix in archery to try to at least keep your powergraph somewhere above "I have scouts and warriors!"

 

[futurehermit]

I repeat, you attacked too late.

No copper for me means 1 of three things:

1) Direct construction beeline (preferred if have ivory)

2) Direct IW beeline (preferred if playing aggressive leader)

3) Deviate for AH then IW beeline (will do this if have pigs/cows/sheep in early empire and/or if no close neighbour and/or if fearful of early barb assault)