Stonehenge not such a good way to get religion?

[Sherlock]

I built Stonehenge for the first time the other day. Thought it looked like a quick way to get an early religion.

Problem I find is you've got a religion but no way to buy Missionaries or Apostles. So after building Stonehenge you need to build a Holy site, then a Shrine, then a Temple. And I have to do it all in one city because if I try building the Holy site somewhere else there's no guarantee my religion will spread to that city by the time my Holy site is done.

Is this pretty much it? Don't try and get religion with Stonehenge? Or is there something I'm missing here?

Any comments welcome.

 

[CrabHelmet]

No, you're perfectly right. It's actually net detrimental as a wonder, and clearly one of the worst or even the worst in the game.

 

[Archon_Wing]

So after building Stonehenge you need to build a Holy site, then a Shrine, then a Temple.

Indeed. This is why Stonehenge sucks badly. If it could replace a Holy Site, it would at least be interesting. But in reality it doesn't save you anything. It is better to just build the HS's you need anyways and is much less risky to do such.

If you look at something like, say the Great Library, that basically performs as a mini-theater square, you can see the synergy is much better.

Ironically, the best use of Memehenge is probably if everyone forgets about it, and you can build it cheaply to get apostles. The chances of this happening is exceptionally rare, of course.

 

[Jewelrunna]

Yeah, that's sort of on point. The only reason you'd wanna go Stonehenge is because you can build it pretty quickly, and there's a specific belief you wanna make sure you get. Otherwise, it's really not worth it. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that it's "net detrimental" like @CrabHelmet said, but it's superfluous a lot of the time.

Also when you're playing on higher difficulties (Emperor or higher), the AI will beeline that wonder and you're never going to get it. I basically write off building Great Bath, Hanging Gardens, and Stonehenge completely. Also Machu Picchu for whatever reason the AI beelines super hard, and I've never built it once on a higher difficulty game.

 

[Starwars]

I don't like going for the super-early wonders in case I miss them so I never try for Stonehenge. I guess one possible use is to try and secure a prophet early to avoid the Holy Site prophet race. Then just pop the Prophet later when you've got all your Holy Sites set up to mass spread your religion throughout your civilization. That's something I do fairly often with my Prophets anyway in case I get one but don't have enough good faith generation to really defend if someone like Russia is around with his religious unit spam.

But not sure if Stonehenge would ever be worth it in that regard.

 

[Bitterman]

It should be able to produce missionaries and apostles at least.

As for now, it is one of the worst (if not the worst straight up) wonders in the game.

 

[Kwami]

The point of Stonehenge isn't to get a religion. It's to get the first religion. That way, you get the first pick of beliefs. In addition, once you do get a Holy Site up, you'll start accumulating extra Faith because your Great Prophet Points will no longer be valid. And, finally, as an early wonder, it makes for great Theater Square adjacency bonuses, which are otherwise rather difficult to obtain in the first half of the game.

Now that the AI almost always takes Choral Music in one of the first two religions, rushing for the first religion might be worth it in some games. I guess you could also make the same argument for Warrior Monks, though I don't know why you'd bother with Warrior Monks.

Anyway, the worst wonders are the ones that come late (e.g. Maracanã) because you've already won by then. Also bad are wonders that don't really do anything, like Panama Canal. It's fun, sure, but it's kind of pointless. On the other hand, Stonehenge is at least situationally pretty good. It's not great. The AI always gets it anyway.

 

[tiamats4esgares]

Sadly, you're absolutely right. You also can't even build the Mahabodhi Temple with Stonehenge because you need a Temple first.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

the worst wonders are the ones that come late (e.g. Maracanã) because you've already won by then. Also bad are wonders that don't really do anything, like Panama Canal. It's fun, sure, but it's kind of pointless. On the other hand, Stonehenge is at least situationally pretty good.

The opportunity costs of building a weak wonder like Stonehenge are huge though, those hammers could have expanded your Empire or built more Troops or improved your economy in the vital early stages of development ....

 

[Chefofrats]

I only ever build Stonehenge when for some unexplicable reason it is still available by turn 60+, and I can spare the production needed - this usually happens only when I have an extremely good starting location, with very high production. Such a combination of factors only comes about every few dozen games. When I start building Stonehenge, I also build a Holy Site somwhere else, so that when I found my religion I end up having two religious cities, and one of them can generate religious units in the future. I guess the whole thing makes very little sense, but I like it for role-playing reasons.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I very rarely build it myself, but there has been a game or two with Egypt where my starting production is solid, and there’s a juicy Stonehenge spot next to a river.

In those cases, I’ve given it a flutter and surrounded it with sphinxes where possible. And it felt pretty ok.

I mean, would I have preferred hanging gardens or temple of Artemis.............? Sure

 

[Uberfrog]

The opportunity costs of building a weak wonder like Stonehenge are huge though, those hammers could have expanded your Empire or built more Troops or improved your economy in the vital early stages of development ....

Agreed. Poor builds early on are extra bad for the same reason good builds are extra strong.

Sucky late wonders might be a waste of hammers but by that point you will have built the necessary stuff, so the opportunity cost of building it is not that high.

Stonehenge is a trap. I think it badly needs a buff. Otherwise all you get is first dibs on religious beliefs and a mediocre 2faith tile in what is otherwise probably prime district real estate. Better in the long run to build the Holy Site.

 

[IvoryPavane]

Agreed. Poor builds early on are extra bad for the same reason good builds are extra strong.

Sucky late wonders might be a waste of hammers but by that point you will have built the necessary stuff, so the opportunity cost of building it is not that high.

Stonehenge is a trap. I think it badly needs a buff. Otherwise all you get is first dibs on religious beliefs and a mediocre 2faith tile in what is otherwise probably prime district real estate. Better in the long run to build the Holy Site.

Agreed. I’d love to see something like:

“creates a great prophet, 50% production bonus for adjacent holy site district and buildings, major adjacent bonus for theatre square.

(or perhaps one of those, if that’s too strong. We arr living in the Bolivar era of Civ, so I think above is fine)

 

[KayAU]

Yeah, Stonehenge is pretty bad. I would like to point out one thing, though. I don't know if i'm the only one who is doing this, but as someone who doesn't enjoy the religious game, I often don't found my religion after getting a prophet. Instead, I keep it around as an insurance policy against someone pursuing a religious victory. If I see someone getting close, I can use the prophet, and all my cities with Holy Sites, which generally means all my cities at that point, will instantly convert to my newly founded religion.

I don't know if this is a very efficient way to do things in terms of winning, but it does allow me to defend against a religious victory without having to bother with religious units throughout most of the game.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I often don't found my religion after getting a prophet. Instead, I keep it around as an insurance policy against someone pursuing a religious victory.

If you're not heading down the religious route then that is a very strong defensive play and one I've used myself.

 

[agonistes]

The point of Stonehenge isn't to get a religion. It's to get the first religion. That way, you get the first pick of beliefs. In addition, once you do get a Holy Site up, you'll start accumulating extra Faith because your Great Prophet Points will no longer be valid. And, finally, as an early wonder, it makes for great Theater Square adjacency bonuses, which are otherwise rather difficult to obtain in the first half of the game.

Now that the AI almost always takes Choral Music in one of the first two religions, rushing for the first religion might be worth it in some games. I guess you could also make the same argument for Warrior Monks, though I don't know why you'd bother with Warrior Monks.

Anyway, the worst wonders are the ones that come late (e.g. Maracanã) because you've already won by then. Also bad are wonders that don't really do anything, like Panama Canal. It's fun, sure, but it's kind of pointless. On the other hand, Stonehenge is at least situationally pretty good. It's not great. The AI always gets it anyway.

I had to build this in a recent game, precisely to get choral music. Normally I don’t take it, but I was forcing myself to make different choices.

 

[darkace77450]

It's not a great wonder, but it is worth 7 era score towards a Classcial Era Golden Age (3 for the wonder, 3 for founding a religion first, and 1 for attracting a great prophet). An impressive holy site gives the same, but it usually requires you to sacrifice a prime campus location to do so unless you're running Desert Folklore, Sacred Path, or Dance of the Aurora.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Keep in mind that you don't need to found a religion right away, what Stonehenge does is to guarantee you get a religion and as a wonder Stonehenge do come with a few perks like era score, Theatre Square adjacency and so on.

For religion, I'm pretty sure each city you have with a holy site will get your religion instantly once you found it, which mean you may want to hold off its founding. Another way is to found it with something like religious colonization.

Obviously the major drawbacks of holding off founding a religion is you get less choices for what benefits your religion will give and you are not getting these bonuses.while you don't have a religion.

 

[GunsGermsandSteel]

While there may be side perks to building Stonehenge the risk/reward is not great. Especially since the AI rushes Stonehenge if it can. Furthermore, at the point in the game wasting a bunch of production only to not end up with the wonder is just not worth it. And even if you do manage to get it built the actual reward just doesn't work right since you can't expand/defend your religion. Saving your great prophet for later is just a work around. It's been brought up before that Stonehenge is fundamentally flawed. As a frequent religious victory player I steer clear of Stonehenge, that should tell you something. A well placed Holy Site is always a better option than Stonehenge.

 

[Archon_Wing]

The point of Stonehenge isn't to get a religion. It's to get the first religion. That way, you get the first pick of beliefs. In addition, once you do get a Holy Site up, you'll start accumulating extra Faith because your Great Prophet Points will no longer be valid. And, finally, as an early wonder, it makes for great Theater Square adjacency bonuses, which are otherwise rather difficult to obtain in the first half of the game.

Now that the AI almost always takes Choral Music in one of the first two religions, rushing for the first religion might be worth it in some games. I guess you could also make the same argument for Warrior Monks, though I don't know why you'd bother with Warrior Monks.

Anyway, the worst wonders are the ones that come late (e.g. Maracanã) because you've already won by then. Also bad are wonders that don't really do anything, like Panama Canal. It's fun, sure, but it's kind of pointless. On the other hand, Stonehenge is at least situationally pretty good. It's not great. The AI always gets it anyway.

But the big thing about Henge is that it can fail at any given movement, and that pretty much ends the game. Not only are you behind, you just crippled your chance to found a religion. No first belief is really that valuable except maybe reliquaries.

Maracana can be good for science games as it does provide the culture boost needed to hit Synthetic Technocracy and International Space Agency.