Stop passing the buck to Firaxis

[Silvis]

i hear the statement that 2k games pushed the release date to fend off bankruptcy a lot... but... if they didn't release it and went bankrupt then we would not even have a game... isn't a flawed game better than no game? at least modders and patches can fix it, well most of it

You just made me die a little inside... I didn't know that

 

[Jayhawks]

No. Absolutely not.

cmon dude, be real... if you want a non flawed game then there would be almost no games... i know everyone is mad, but it is what it is, complaining about it probably won't change much

 

[lissenber]

If we saved them from bankruptcy then where`s our "Thank you" letter? Okay, maybe that`s too smug of us to ask. But what about a promise to fix the game and make it like what it was/is meant to be?

I haven`t been lurking in the 2K forums but from what i have heard then they close your thread if you point any of the game`s flaws.

 

[Thormodr]

cmon dude, be real... if you want a non flawed game then there would be almost no games... i know everyone is mad, but it is what it is, complaining about it probably won't change much

On the contrary, letting 2K Games and Firaxis know that ciV is completely unacceptable is something all true Civ fans should do.

If we don't complain about this half baked, unbalanced mess then nothing will change.

 

[cr0ws]

cmon dude, be real... if you want a non flawed game then there would be almost no games... i know everyone is mad, but it is what it is, complaining about it probably won't change much

I agree with him, but maybe because I was taught that, 'If you're going to start a job, start it and finish it right, or don't start it at all.' type of environment.

 

[Louis XXIV]

No. Absolutely not.

That's an absolutely ridiculous argument. It's better to have the Civilization franchise end than to have a game that not everyone might like, but which can still be modded and is enjoyed by many people?

But about the original point, I'd also have to disagree there. We'll never know what happened during beta testing, but the buck can't stop at the beta testers for the very fact that Firaxis is ultimately responsible. They are the designers and programmers of the game.

 

[Thormodr]

If we saved them from bankruptcy then where`s our "Thank you" letter? Okay, maybe that`s too smug of us to ask. But what about a promise to fix the game and make it like what it was/is meant to be?

I haven`t been lurking in the 2K forums but from what i have heard then they close your thread if you point any of the game`s flaws.

Don't forget, according to Dennis Shirk, this game was a "big sloppy kiss to all Civ fans".

Well, don't you usually get kissed before you get (you know)?

2K Forums are awful. It's like a police state over there sadly.

 

[Thormodr]

Frankenstein Test Group

Did we really expect anything good with a name like that?

A half baked monster, in need of patches that has little semblance of AI.

Sounds a lot like ciV.

 

[Geddy]

So let us consider that if 2k are experiencing financial trouble wouldn't it be sensible not to screw up the goldmine that is Civilization? More people would then buy their product.
How hard is it to design a GOOD Civ 5? I could have done it blindfolded, and I can't even program!

 

[da_Vinci]

I think that the beta testers worked very hard to get the game in a playable state. Even though there are still numerous bugs and balance problems, I think they probably did a commendable job considering the game was obviously rushed by 2K Games to cash in and fend off bankruptcy.

My theory is that a lot of the beta testers probably raised real concerns about how the game was dull, uninspiring and that the AI was awful. 2K Games wouldn't dream of pushing the release date back and Firaxis probably was scared to death by the prospect of an angry mob complaining about the delayed release. JS probably due to his inexperience probably didn't want to listen to ideas that were contrary to his vision.

I've beta tested a different game, Cities XL, which also had serious design issues. We raised these issues in the beta tester forum, but we were largely ignored by the designers. The design studio had this notion that the point of beta testing was to catch serious bugs, like memory leaks and CTD's, but not change core gameplay, and that we beta testers should be in awe and honored we were even chosen. I suspect this is the case here.

As someone who was in the STO beta, I'm pretty sure the testers did their best...

I agree, it's not really fair to blame the testers, all they can do is report what they find to the developers, it's then up to the devs to do something about their findings, or not as the case may be

I can only imagine that many of the issues being raised on these forums now were identified and reported to Firaxis/2K, who presumably said "thanks for your input" while feeding the shredder.

Or, maybe this group was so busy reporting and fixing the "dinosaurs" that we are not seeing (things much bigger than bugs) that the relatively "minor" glitches that remain could not be addressed?

dV

 

[cr0ws]

That's an absolutely ridiculous argument. It's better to have the Civilization franchise end than to have a game that not everyone might like, but which can still be modded and is enjoyed by many people?

You don't seem to really understand what modding is, it's just adding and changing existing rules and code to an already existing engine. If the engine is broken and bug infested and incomplete, makes modding difficult and frustrating and impossible.

 

[Ogaburan]

You don't seem to really understand what modding is, it's just adding and changing existing rules and code to an already existing engine. If the engine is broken and bug infested and incomplete, makes modding difficult and frustrating and impossible.

Sad but true.

A strong battle AI is a must for example... sure i can put a nice hat and a sharper weapon on that soldier but he will still charge into the wall...

 

[Exterminas]

Tester says "Your KI sucks"
Fraxis says "Yep, but we have a release date. Oh, and remember that paper you had to accept? Says you are not allowed to tell anyone about the stuff from the Test."
Tester says "Yep"

???

Guilt of the Tester?

 

[Aristos]

as logical as your point seems to be, it is hard to charge the Betas with this disaster. Remember that all of us were dreaming of a new success, a better game... anyone among us would have accepted the offer to work as Betas for this version without blinking. Once accepted and binded by contract, the NDA kicks in, and even if the Betas see the disaster coming (as they sure did), they CANNOT SAY A WORD thanks to the NDA.

No, Sir, this "massification of Civ" has only the developers to blame, and among them, the boy with the Panzer fixation seems to be the first candidate...

 

[evrett37]

If we saved them from bankruptcy then where`s our "Thank you" letter? Okay, maybe that`s too smug of us to ask. But what about a promise to fix the game and make it like what it was/is meant to be?

I haven`t been lurking in the 2K forums but from what i have heard then they close your thread if you point any of the game`s flaws.

If thats true then its another thing none of these "testers" came forward with. They had a responsibility to the game and as fellow gamers to the community and they failed both.

On the contrary, letting 2K Games and Firaxis know that ciV is completely unacceptable is something all true Civ fans should do.

If we don't complain about this half baked, unbalanced mess then nothing will change.

Exactly - we must act or expect more of the same - if we want community reps and testers to be honest and forthcoming an example must be set to shwo what happens when fail at their responsibilities. Its in the best interest of Civ to have testers who are there for the right reasons and feel some pressure to succeed.

 

[da_Vinci]

If thats true then its another thing none of these "testers" came forward with. They had a responsibility to the game and to as fellow gamers to the community and they failed both.

If they had to sign an NDA, then they had a legal obligation not to disclose what they discovered in testing, and a responsibility to report to the company what they found. Presumably, there was no option to test without an NDA. So the only way to exercise their "responsibility to the game" was to test under this restriction and report to the bosses.

If you are suggesting that the testers should have risked a breach of contract lawsuit to be the whistleblowers about the unfixed flaws ... well I would not put my and my family's financial security at risk for ... A GAME! Get some perspective ...

dV

 

[evrett37]

<makes rolling eyes gesture> To my knowledge no one has ever been sued for violation of an NDA in the testing of a video game. What exactly is the fine for that sort of thing? 100 hours community service? And if they came forward and what they said was true enough to be backed up by the data and other tests any lawsuit would be a PR nightmare.

And that assumes the tester is stupid enough to identify him/her self publicly. The greatest asset of the interweb is anonymity.

 

[Collic]

The OP clearly has no understanding of what beta testing is. They would have been an under an NDA, and even if they weren't, beta testers are there to bug hunt and provide feedback, not act as 'community snoops'.

Further, they would not have had access to the final, pre-release build. They would have tested the most recently released beta build, but bug fixing and tweaking would still have been going on after that, right up until crunch time and the retail release. All they can do is test and report issues, bugs and make recommendations for a product still being developed (recommendations and testing directed by the developers).

I've been in a fair few betas and the ignorance on display here is staggering.

 

[cr0ws]

<makes rolling eyes gesture> To my knowledge no one has ever been sued for violation of an NDA in the testing of a video game. What exactly is the fine for that sort of thing? 100 hours community service? And if they came forward and what they said was true enough to be backed up by the data and other tests any lawsuit would be a PR nightmare.

And that assumes the tester is stupid enough to identify him/her self publicly. The greatest asset of the interweb is anonymity.

interweb is anonymity <----- Yeah when I got to age 10 I realized santa claus didn't really exist.
When I got to age 20 I realized there is no such thing as democracy.
Tis only yesterday I found out there is no such thing as anonymity.

 

[SerialK]

i love this "bring a torch and burn them all" spirit... Especially toward some of the best modders out there.

You should document yourself a bit about what is a beta test and a NDA (like signing a contract, with your name on it) before posting inflammatory topics like this, seriously.